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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says?


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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 8:39:01 AM   
fyreredsub


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Greetings Master Stephann,

Fyre has emailed the posts link to Master

< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 6/19/2007 8:41:07 AM >


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"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 10:07:21 AM   
Rapture


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"Stop whinin'........Even you're bigger than that..................
So what, the Mods don't always care for  your comments and life isn't fair, and I suppose none of that is your fault
"

Oh it is not me who has been doing the whinning...

Rapture

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 362
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 10:36:35 AM   
stef


Posts: 5406
Joined: 1/26/2004
From: Boston, MA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture

Oh it is not me who has been doing the whinning...

Opinions vary.

~stef

_____________________________

Some people are like Slinkies. They have no practical use whatsoever, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 363
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 11:15:11 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub
of course as an unowned girl  you can get away with far more  and do not answer to a Master as fyre does.


This has gone far afield ... including the half dozen admonishment emails that I got on the other side.
 
There is nothing to "get away with." I had something to say, I said it, and did it with shock power. This was done for a very simple reason ... the post I was responding to, also had a lot of shock power.
 
Master Leonidas has shown many times that he can see meaning through style. I didn't "call him out" ... saying something like, 'we don't give a fuck if you post here or not' ... now that would have been calling him out.
 
Given that the original shock post was actually his, I don't honestly believe he will be overly offended by mine. I think he will see why it's worded like it is ... maybe it will have meaning to him, and maybe it wont.
 
If I'm wrong, and he is genuinely offended, then he will get a full, sincere and public apology on this board.
 
Fair enough?

(in reply to fyreredsub)
Profile   Post #: 364
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 11:30:25 AM   
fyreredsub


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greetings caitlyn,

if fyre was wiser she guesses she would have emailed too 

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 365
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 11:32:59 AM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
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quote:

ORIGINAL: empresschaos
Also, thank you Najakcharmer, that is indeed how I came across this forum... the link popped up while I was answering my mail, and I followed it.


You are welcome.  That is also how I ended up poking my nose in here.  I stick around because there's generally good conversation, and because I'm a social Darwinist. 

quote:

Additionally, if, on a femdom forum, the question "are men inherently submissive to women?" arose, and a gay male dom said that he didn't have any particular use for women, I don't think I could possibly take offense to it. I am a lesbian dominant female, which I was rushed and flustered and didn't say flat out before. So, no, I don't think I was made to be submissive to men. And no, I don't really have much use for men in general, nor do I have a problem with whatever dominating they do. Kinda like my Finnish analogy. Which probably makes more sense now, eh? :)


While you're welcome to that point of view, I don't tend to treat people based on  how much use they are to me.  I'm sure the average person doesn't have much actual use for his disabled 80 year old mother, but hopefully was raised better than to say such a discourteous thing.   I don't personally want to date or play with the vast majority of the earth's general population, or I'd be a very busy domme indeed!  But that doesn't mean there might not be a lot of potentially worthwhile folks and maybe some genuine friends among them that I will find by treating people courteously even when they don't happen to be potential sex objects. 

(in reply to empresschaos)
Profile   Post #: 366
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 11:37:59 AM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I wonder if anyone noticed that it's a question based on a false premise.  The Gor books don't actually say that ALL women want to be slaves.  If the folks strutting their quips, snides, scientific proofs and oh-so-logical arguments had bothered reading the books, they'd probably know that.


I'm fully aware of that.  There's a difference between what's actually in the books, what the living Goreans believe who make the culture and lifestyle work for them in reality, and what the online "True Goreian Warrior Ninja Mastar of teh Intarwebs" crowd declaims.  But the questions themselves are still valid. 


quote:

Would they have snached up Betty Friedan, K.D. Lange, or Rosie O'Donnell and hauled them off to Gor?  Somehow I doubt it.  A lot.


Oh, but consider the comedy value.  I wanna see the fanfic. 

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 367
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 11:45:56 AM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
The HBE models are great for theory, and to try and apply it to humans, but unlike all of our primate cousins, our minds and behaviors can be much more complex.


Insightful points as always.  The "my gang can beat up your gang" resolution method works reasonably well as a check and balance of power in a primate troop, but less well in the inner city, since we now have devices that can hurl exploding metal projectiles instead of poo.  Complicates the equation considerably, even though we're still working with the same basic primate wiring. 

The founding fathers of America tried to build some essentially similar checks and balances into the establishment of our original government, but I'm not sure that model has held up so well in the increasingly complex setting of our no-longer-hunter-gatherer global village.  

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 1:56:00 PM   
Rapture


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture
Oh it is not me who has been doing the whinning...

Opinions vary.
~stef


Opinions are just dandy. That is why a long time ago I decided to keep emails, logs, and such other things that would otherwise concern me. Then the same can be referenced later when spew crops up, then effectively refuted. If anything I do know how to do research, keep records, have patience, and give people enough rope to hang themselves.

More actual thread material forthcoming...

Rapture

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Profile   Post #: 369
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 3:23:08 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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So when people actually call you paranoid, they are not just calling you a name but referencing a diagnosis that has been missed by medical professionals you have seen in your life.

Rapture you are good for a laugh or two, to point out how we really all make mistakes, even you, and to poke ya some times and watch the script run. I used to actually find some things in your posts that I agreed with or made me think. Lately though, there has not been much there. What is that saying about wasted potential?

Anyway, talk is cheap as always and you talk just as much as anyone else.

To the OP, does anyone remember the percentage of slaves and where it can be found? I have been skimming through several books and cannot find it.


Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture

quote:

ORIGINAL: stef
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture
Oh it is not me who has been doing the whinning...

Opinions vary.
~stef


Opinions are just dandy. That is why a long time ago I decided to keep emails, logs, and such other things that would otherwise concern me. Then the same can be referenced later when spew crops up, then effectively refuted. If anything I do know how to do research, keep records, have patience, and give people enough rope to hang themselves.

More actual thread material forthcoming...

Rapture


_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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Profile   Post #: 370
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 3:28:54 PM   
Jack45


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Norman sure leaves that impression in the Gor books.
What he actually believed about the U.S. women I can't say.
He seemed to not like women's lib types from what I read.

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 371
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 3:34:32 PM   
Stephann


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From: Los Angeles, CA
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Orion,

I believe it's 3%  He says something about 1 or 2 slaves for every fifty free women.  This isn't supported by the number of free women and slaves we see on a practical basis, though; slaves cost less than a bosk, for example, and it seemed there were usually 3 slaves to every free woman we encounter.

You might want to check Nomads for the actual ratio, but it's been a while since I read the passage.  I could be wrong.

Stephan


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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 6:00:24 PM   
Luther6


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Joined: 4/25/2007
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“Are most Gorean women slaves?” she asked.
“No,” I said.  “Indeed, statistically, in those parts of Gor with which I am familiar, very few.  Commonly only one woman in, say, forty or fifty is a slave.  This varies somewhat of course, from city to city.  The major exception to these ratios is the city of Tharna, in which almost every woman is a slave.”  I looked at her.  “There are special historical reasons for that,” I said.
“But over a large population,” she said, “there would be literally thousands.”
“Of course,” I said."
(Beasts of Gor, p.246)

"Tharna is one of the few Gorean cities in which the great majority of its women are enslaved.  Normally only about one in forty or so Gorean women in the cities is enslaved."
(Explorers of Gor, p.459)

These are overall averages and the specific percentage in any city may vary.  Tharna is the major exception.  Ar also has a higher percentage of slaves than the average. 


_____________________________

“The Goreans have very different notions of morality from those of Earth.”
(Marauders of Gor, p.7)

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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/19/2007 7:07:29 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Thanks Luther. you saved me alot more skimming. I wish to use these as my references for an essay I am writing and this topic plays into that.


Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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Profile   Post #: 374
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/20/2007 7:27:14 AM   
Rapture


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Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
If you mean post 265, I certainly didn't ignore it ... I read it. It's pretty obvious that you don't agree with me, and I don't agree with you. What agenda would be served by my responding? I think we both get the point that we don't agree.
I would however, differ with the notion that I have a bias not in your favor. If that were true, I would simply ignore you, like I do many others in various CollarMe boards. That I choose to challenge your statements, should be an indication that I think they have a possibility of having truth behind them.
My interrest about your New Orleans comment, stems from living in Houston, and knowing a ton of refugees from that area. My apologies for missing your expansion of the topic.



caitlyn,

The references that I made to New Orleans are when hurricane Katrina hit, and more importantly the four so days of aftermath. This aftermath consisted of people, those civilized people, reverting back to their base or basic survival instincts to survive. You did not have the females or femdom’s leading the way. As a matter of fact if you note even from the various news footage that is available people were in groups whenever possible. People were literally foraging for food and water. This foraging was inclusive of people taking, raping, and pillaging. Those who were doing these things were not the females, but the males. The females were in the background. There was no law enforcement or government to provide the female her “equality” or a “level playing field”. As goes, my spew that a female to be such things as others have purported they must have some third party or entity that they, the female, must rely, to be “dominate”. Why? When things go south, or bad, then the female can then call the police, a friend, or some other third party or third party governmental entity for backup, to “enforce” her “dominance”.

Many on this forum say that I am incorrect but each time if you will note they really do not provide any actual evidence that would otherwise support their respective contentions. Further, you have some females, and even some males on these forums here, and other places that will spout and beat their chest. However, in these instances, and from time to time I have provided to these people the opportunity to do so in person, face to face, and they have either reneged, back down, or just kept on spew only here online. This supports the aforementioned contentions of mine that given a particular medium, e.g. Internet here and the safety “ “ of being behind the monitor and keyboard these people, and especially, the “femdoms” will beat their respective chests but will never put their entire body where their mouths are. Then you must ask yourself why…. If the femdom’s and their respective theories are correct, then they have nothing to fear in actually meeting someone and spewing as they do but ONLY online.

Yet, caitlyn, they know they risk the vary things that I have been saying, thus they will only speak or be “dominate” with those people who will only consent to it-they cannot nor will ever take it. However, giving consent really is not dominating anyone, it is “hey come beat me”, “Ok”. … Thus, their so called dominance is a misnomer because the femdom, the female, will not actually dominate but will only look for that ‘consent’ which is not actual dominance at all.

Also in N.O. you had the nice people doing the raping and pillaging in the Super Dome. Surely, had many women complaining, yet where was their respective action? Where were the femdoms, the feminists, and in the like kind? I am not sanctioning the conduct but I am merely making the point that the female will not oppose as they do here or in similar venues,  without those third parties.

Some will further say well we have laws and such and therefore things must be consensual. If they think that dominance requires consent in the manner in which it is referred to then of these people really have never dominated anything.

Interesting enough, in the books, many people were transplanted so you would have a augmented and unnatural population base (males vs. females).  Further, a female may or may not want to be ‘dominated’, ‘enslaved’, or “subservient” but when they have no choice the New Orleans example comes into play. These people revert to their natural state of being subservient because they no longer have the fiction of government to provide them with “equality”.

This fiction of equality has been demonstrated in the books as well, when Men decided that they just had enough of a particular female’s mouth or in the like kind then put her in a collar (being subservient if she likes it or not) and there you go…

As I said, let all the nice people who spew here do it in person, and you will see that 99.9% of them _will not_ .

Rapture

“The man who truly understands us, she laughed, is the first to put us on our knees and make us kiss the whip...”
Explorers of Gor pg 188

“Perhaps you are a free woman, he said. It is hard to imagine a slave being so stupid.”
Kajira of Gor Book 19 Page 224

"Make my maidens slaves," she said, "they are good for little else. But I am a free woman!" "Do you think you are better than they?" asked Samos. "Yes," she said. "You are no different from them," he said. "You, too are only a female."
Players of Gor pg. 13

“Perhaps free women are incomprehensible. A Gorean saying came to mind, that the free woman is a riddle, the answer to which is the collar.”
Magicians of Gor - Page 50

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 375
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/20/2007 7:30:54 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
quote:

ORIGINAL: fyreredsub
of course as an unowned girl  you can get away with far more  and do not answer to a Master as fyre does.

If I'm wrong, and he is genuinely offended, then he will get a full, sincere and public apology on this board.
Fair enough?


Well, I do not think you are wrong in this instance at all caitlyn.... Even Rome fell to their own base existence, and was conquered from within way before the barbarians did them in...

Rapture

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 376
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/20/2007 7:34:27 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
So when people actually call you paranoid, they are not just calling you a name but referencing a diagnosis that has been missed by medical professionals you have seen in your life.


~takes his lithium, haldol, and perks...and Jack.

quote:


Anyway, talk is cheap as always and you talk just as much as anyone else.
Orion


You are certainly correct Orion, when you say talk is cheap, then again noone over my time being online opposed me as they would here but in person-not even you, nor will you ever, nor will the about five or so other people who enjoy flamming me.

Rapture

< Message edited by Rapture -- 6/20/2007 7:36:07 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 377
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/20/2007 8:39:48 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline
Rapture,

Proof would mean photographic evidence, or testimonials, or something to that effect.  While I've no doubt that women were raped, I would suspect that there were a number of women who, faced with protecting and feeding their children, stepped up into leadership roles to ensure that food was acquired.  Perhaps you have evidence to the contrary?  Conjecture is not proof.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 378
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/20/2007 8:42:55 AM   
stef


Posts: 5406
Joined: 1/26/2004
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture

You are certainly correct Orion, when you say talk is cheap, then again noone over my time being online opposed me as they would here but in person-not even you, nor will you ever, nor will the about five or so other people who enjoy flamming me.

*yawn*

While I'm sure that plenty of people have called you on your nonsense in person before, I'll be sure let you know the next time I'm in SF with some free time and I'll be happy to do the same.

~stef

_____________________________

Some people are like Slinkies. They have no practical use whatsoever, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

(in reply to Rapture)
Profile   Post #: 379
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/20/2007 8:50:12 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
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 Hello Stephen,
It seems to be a contentious issue even with the press, whether or not these things happened inside the SuperDome:
http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=nation_world&id=3474086
That being said, it is true in situations like that society does tend to crumble.   Looking at a situation like Darfur, for example.  In that one, however, it seems everyone is a victim, not just women or men who would not stand up and defend themselves.

Cordially,
Ygraine

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to Stephann)
Profile   Post #: 380
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