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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says?


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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/21/2007 6:00:27 PM   
Rapture


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Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapture
Do you or I get to turn off nature just because some legislature passes a law, or some police dude or dudette is on patrol? If the answer is no, then the reality is that the post Katrina attributes are there, but perhaps just not as much, or even more depending on the person and a the stated goal (in one form or the other). If yes, you just changed the entire natural world, and universe..... 



quote:


I agree that the answer is no, but draw a different conclusion.


We can draw as many conclusions as you want or anyone else wants too but the facts remain...

quote:


The things we have made ... physical, institutional, and emotional ... are thing that are now part of nature. The gun that makes people equal, is now part of nature. The legislature that passes laws, is now part of nature. Feelings like "all are equal under God," are now part of nature. Agree with them or not, to exclude them from nature is pure folly.


Those feelings are a belief system, not necessarily, no, not a fact at all. To say we are equal is factually incorrect. The belief in a God or Gods or such other Deities is a belief, and nothing more. As I said, laws are passed pretty much from a small group's beliefs in how things should be, which are not necessarily how nature would otherwise decide.

quote:


Pick a difficult topic like feminism. Not popular on this board ... not popular with me ... but it does exist as something we created, and as such, is now part of nature. Dispute the ideal it represents (and I do to a great extent), but the reality is that men once had all the power ... so they either gave some up willingly, or women took some. Either way, those must be considered natural events, by all measures of sanity.


Feminism like the belief in a God or Gods or such other Deities are a belief system not necessarily concurrent nor compatible with nature.

quote:


Pick another, like taxes. We all hate them, but we all pay them. On some level, we must have seen the need and created the system. It has to be a natural event ... it can by cause/effect, be no other.


Actually, the history of taxes is a tad of a pet project of mine, ranging from the various U.S. Supreme Court Decisions (which interpet the 16th Amendment) on the same to some interesting beliefs regarding them. Taxes were never intended way back when except when the Constitution was amendmended to include them. Why? Beause there is a court case declaring taxes unconsitutional because there was no provision for them in the constitution-hence the amendment. Also, if you will note the tax system in the U.S. is about spending money and keeping money circulating verse saving money. There are few provisions that give great ole benefits for those who save money, especially when one dies. Ask any tax planner, financial planner, or tax attorney the best thing for anyone is to die without any wealth whatsoever in your taxable estate or at least come under the exemptions (so your estate does not pay estate taxes.

quote:


Bottom line, I agree that the answer it no ... but do not agree with your idea of what "yes" would mean.
P.S. I really don't want to enter the discussion about slavery, consentual or otherwise. In all candor I just don't feel qualified to speak intelligently on that topic. Anything I have to say, would tend to be parenthetical, hypothetical and simplistic. It sounds like a way to offend people and get flamed ... lets pass on that today.


.....

Rapture

< Message edited by Rapture -- 6/21/2007 6:01:49 PM >

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/21/2007 8:38:46 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Human beings are part of nature. Belief systems are made by human beings, and as such must be part of nature.
 
Your point sounds a bit like a PETA argument. They would insist that a nest built by a bird as a home, is natural, but a house built by a human as a home, isn't.
 
I'm not sure what "facts" you insist remain. Until such time as you can prove that anything made by man is not part of nature ... or part of natural evolution if you prefer ... you will convince everyone of nothing.
 
The alternate argument is easy enough ... nothing is fabricated from thin air, be it physical things from various resources, or non-physical, made from collective experiences.

(in reply to Rapture)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/21/2007 8:59:04 PM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Human beings are part of nature. Belief systems are made by human beings, and as such must be part of nature.


Unfortunitly that type of logic does not hold.

"I believe and therefore it is" does not work either.

That is like saying i'm typing in pink, because 1) I say so, 2) I believe it to be true, therefore 3) It is true. The fact is that I am not typing in pink at all, no matter what i believe to be true. A belief is just that a belief, nothing more, and nothing less. The same really is not a fact.

Rapture

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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/22/2007 3:28:46 AM   
callofzion


Posts: 33
Joined: 12/20/2006
Status: offline 		A whole bunch of homophobic scientists creating theories and then supplying "evidence"  for their own theories based on, hmmm, other 'studies' from homophobes without a scrap of evidence that actually really pertains to anything isn't science, it's pseudo science. (By the way, I'm not saying there aren't physcial and chemical differences between men and women, I am saying that trying to 'cure' homosexuality based on them is about as retarded as you can get. It's like saying that there are physical differences between black people and white people, so they shouldn't interbreed, y'all aren't so philosophically seperated from your sheeted brothers, it would seem)

Having a dick doesn't make you a Dom, being Gorean doesn't make you right, it does however, show a healthy level of imagination, just like those scientists, bravo! Oh, and a big shout out to Bull, who proves that just because you have a handlebar mustache, you don't have to take yourself too seriously.


< Message edited by callofzion -- 6/22/2007 3:33:00 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/23/2007 9:21:07 AM   
Rapture


Posts: 808
Joined: 12/27/2004
Status: offline 		Smiles.

"Goreans, in their simplistic fashion, often contend, categorically, that man is naturally free and woman is naturally slave. But even for them the issues are more complex than these simple formulations would suggest. For example, there is no higher person, nor one more respected, than the Gorean free woman. Even a slaver who has captured a free woman often treats her with great solicitude until she is branded."
Hunters of Gor Book 8 Page 311

Rapture

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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/23/2007 11:15:14 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


Posts: 4253
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quote:

Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says?


if all women wanted to be slaves...then there wouldn't be some very competant and able Mistresses out there and male subs/slaves would be left out.


_____________________________

Are we having fun, yet?

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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/23/2007 5:04:07 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4211
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Perhaps the male subs would find themselves owning slaves then... could that be all bad?

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/23/2007 5:50:30 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3938
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		PETA = People Eating Tastey Animals................

Slurp my beef!!!!!

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to caitlyn)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/23/2007 5:52:57 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3938
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Or they could find themselves at the perverbial rowing end of an oar....That wouldn't be all that bad either, they would still be able to submit if that is the thing most important, of couse they wouldn't get all that free pussy. (note the spin on free!!!)

Bull



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/23/2007 6:36:46 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

I even told my girl that a male slave would not be a bad thing, because there is so much outdoor work to be done. I doubt there are many slaves, male or female, that could live for just the mundane service, and being treated well. There would be no sex involved, they would have a very small area to quarter in and their day would be spent working hard. I have found more females that could be very satisfied with that, and have never heard of a male that could be. I guess that is a difference I see in male and female slaves here on Earth.

I have mentioned before that I used to be involved in going to BDSM gathers and clubs. There was a time when this supposed male slave was acting out and the Mistress was not sure how to handle it. I came up behind him, grabbed him by the hair as I kicked in the back of the knee slightly, and pulled/pushed him to his knees. I then asked if he was a slave or not. I told him to choose to either be a slave or a Man, and if he chose slave then he damn well better act it when in my sight. The Mistress got angry that I had treated her property like that, and I just told her "keep your animal under control when in public or I will do so." It was not until just now that I realized that likely that male slave was acting out because slave may not have been in his nature, and instead it was a way for him to get the pussy. Ahhh my younger and more stupid years, I do not miss them.

Live Free,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Or they could find themselves at the perverbial rowing end of an oar....That wouldn't be all that bad either, they would still be able to submit if that is the thing most important, of couse they wouldn't get all that free pussy. (note the spin on free!!!)

Bull




_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/24/2007 8:41:41 AM   
tangy


Posts: 124
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline 		greetings Master Orion

"I realized that likely that male slave was acting out because slave may not have been in his nature, and instead it was a way for him to get the pussy."

but is it really in a males nature to be submissive to a woman? or be a "slave"? something about that just creeps me out, maybe its just to get pussy!

well wishes,
tangy

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/24/2007 8:56:13 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4211
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		I really have a hard time believing a male would actively seek out a 'slave' role in effort to get any pussy.  Most are fully aware that most dommes only sleep with doms, or each other ;)

Seriously, I don't envy male submissives.  Their lot in life is not easy.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to tangy)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/24/2007 9:17:44 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I really have a hard time believing a male would actively seek out a 'slave' role in effort to get any pussy.  Most are fully aware that most dommes only sleep with doms, or each other ;)

Seriously, I don't envy male submissives.  Their lot in life is not easy.

Stephan


Since it was a BDSM gathering, the possibiliy (not yet mentioned) exists that the male slave may just have been trying to provoke the humiliation and punishment he craved.
 
K.
 

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/24/2007 10:23:03 AM   
tangy


Posts: 124
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline 		greetings Master Stephan

dommies have sex with other doms and not their slaves/subs? since when?

well wishes,
tangy

< Message edited by tangy -- 6/24/2007 10:25:58 AM >

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/24/2007 10:28:43 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4211
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		He could easily get that from a shrew wife I would think.  I'd be happy to introduce a male sub to my step mother (shudders.)

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/24/2007 12:23:43 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Stephan,


He seem to enjoy the degradation and pain, and that is what got him off. It was his kink. Pussy is used metaphorically. I would say that human get very inventive sometimes when they are trying to get something they desire. This particular male slave was not very submissive out of a play environment, except with the two different Dommes I saw him with, or when met with extreme dominance. He seemed very much like any sub, and often topped from the bottom.

Greetings Tangy,

I will not say that ever male is dominant, so what does that leave sometimes? I do not think submission to a female is predominant in males naturally. This does not mean they cannot be submissive for some other reasons besides their nature, and for some it may be their nature Just look at Tarl in Raiders, after being made a slave. I know that it is not in my nature to be submissive to anyone, but I have been suboridinate to others. Just because it does not apply to me, I will not rule it out for others and from what I have seen in every day life, there are alot of wimped out males in society. Whether it is because of their nature or nurtue, I cannot say as I have not had any long term friendships with such males.

Also, if you read about Human Behavorial Evolution theory, it is pretty sound. We evolve intellectually and physically, so why not socially as well?

Also, why in the hell are you on approval status now? Since these boards have a block feature, I cannot see the reason why to have mods and approval, unless you are doing something that would get the board shut down. Grrrrrrrrr. Yeah I know Mods, not my boards and if I don't like the rules open my own. I play by the rules of the land, so just me venting.


Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/24/2007 12:40:27 PM   
tangy


Posts: 124
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline 		greetings Master Orion,

"He seem to enjoy the degradation and pain, and that is what got him off. It was his kink. Pussy is used metaphorically. I would say that human get very inventive sometimes when they are trying to get something they desire"

i do agree with this, alot of male subs seem to get off on just the thought of a woman being cruel to them, but when that woman pushes him to his limits, push against the wall so to speak, the male always fights back, witch i believe that no man is really submissive, just maybe in the bed room or to get himelf off. so i guess its just kinky sex to them.

and about being modarated. i didnt say anything worst then anyone else has...but thats how things go, no big deal.

well wishes,
tangy

< Message edited by tangy -- 6/24/2007 12:42:27 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/25/2007 5:31:42 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
I even told my girl that a male slave would not be a bad thing, because there is so much outdoor work to be done. I doubt there are many slaves, male or female, that could live for just the mundane service, and being treated well. There would be no sex involved, they would have a very small area to quarter in and their day would be spent working hard. I have found more females that could be very satisfied with that, and have never heard of a male that could be. I guess that is a difference I see in male and female slaves here on Earth.


Our experience is a bit different, which is not surprising.  There's the the average horny-wannabe-not-very-sub-male who peruses adult sites and bothers dominant ladies in the hopes he'll get free fetish wank material, and then there's the real deal.  In my experience, a fairly significant percentage of real life submissive men who are in some form of LTR with a dominant woman (and in some cases with a dominant man) do serve without sex.  The exceptions tend to be when the D/s relationship is also a primary relationship and involves marriage or living together.


quote:

I have mentioned before that I used to be involved in going to BDSM gathers and clubs. There was a time when this supposed male slave was acting out and the Mistress was not sure how to handle it. I came up behind him, grabbed him by the hair as I kicked in the back of the knee slightly, and pulled/pushed him to his knees. I then asked if he was a slave or not. I told him to choose to either be a slave or a Man, and if he chose slave then he damn well better act it when in my sight. The Mistress got angry that I had treated her property like that, and I just told her "keep your animal under control when in public or I will do so."


That behavior is akin to a Japanese person coming into an American person's house and assaulting a married couple, kicking them repeatedly in the knees until they bowed "properly" to each other instead of exchanging a hug and a kiss.  BDSM culture and Gorean culture are not the same, and people who belong to one should not be expected to follow or even understand the rules of the other. 

If you laid hands on any member of my household without consent, one of two things would happen.  Either there would be immediate and savage physical violence involving all three of us, or he and I might possibly manage to hold our tempers long enough to have you evicted in an orderly way from the premises and made permanently unwelcome at the venue.  There would be no third option.

quote:

It was not until just now that I realized that likely that male slave was acting out because slave may not have been in his nature, and instead it was a way for him to get the pussy. Ahhh my younger and more stupid years, I do not miss them.


Well, here's the thing - you don't always know what the relationship really is between two people, because BDSM culture can be amazingly complicated.  It's possible for two people at an event to be related like this:  John is Michael's boy and also his primary life partner, but Michael is bisexual and submissive to Amy, who formally trained both of them. John is gay, and he is also Amy's "grand-boy".  When high protocol is appropriate he will defer to her as head of household.  He considers her a respected mentor and a friend, and senior to him in the family, but he does not serve her directly or belong to her even though he wears a collar with the insignia of her house.  They are leather family, but not owner and slave. Observers might not fully understand the way in which they relate to one another, but frankly it wouldn't be any of their business.  And anyone attempting to butt into their business would be likely to have their ass handed to them by the entire household. 

Or like this: Susan and Bill are good friends.  He is a sassy bottom rather than a slave or a submissive.  Sometimes they play at parties because he makes a good demo bottom for bondage (he's flexible and easy on the eyes, and she does a lot of public classes and workshops).  But their relationship is friendly and fun, and it really doesn't involve D/s.  He is very likely to mouth off to her and make hilariously smart remarks while he is tied up, and she "punishes" him for those remarks by doing even more fiendish things to him.  That's their dynamic, and it's always a treat to watch them at an event because they are both so devilishly creative - him with his comedic smart mouthing and her with the evil things she thinks up to "punish" him for his wit.  Someone admonishing Bill for being a sassy bottom and not "a good slave" would be looked at very strangely by everyone who knew them and enjoyed their energy.  Everyone in the community who had half a clue would be thinking of the person doing the admonishing as an ignorant newbie who Didn't Get It. 

I've changed the names, but these are real people and real situations in the leather community.  It really isn't advisable to step in the middle of someone else's consensually negotiated adult relationship and try to dictate its terms, not if you're on their turf and in their community.   The rules of relationships just ain't as simple out there in the wide world as they are on Gor.  If you try to force other people to adhere to your personal standards for their intimate relationships, nothing very good is likely to come of that. 

There's a time and a place to enforce Gorean standards.  The leather community is not the place.  It's not your Home Stone, it's ours.  Don't be surprised when we take up arms to defend it from those who enter our territory and disrespect our traditions.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/25/2007 8:17:17 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7232
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Najakcharmer,

The gathering/party I was a co-host of. The rules for the party were posted and sent via email before the event. I won't go into particulars, but it was resolved and I allowed the Domme and her pet to stay and enjoy themselves. At the time, I was not even exposed to anything Gorean. If you want to put things in Gorean standards, it was part of my homestone, the other hosts of the party were in my circle of steel. The male slave was lucky to leave under his own power, as the rules at these gathers were absolute, when I was younger I had no reservations about enforcing my will how ever I needed to. Had it been at a club or someone else's party, I would have just ignored it, unless it came became a problem within my sphere of influence.

All of the above is an aside from the spectacle the Domme allowed and how poorly it reflected on her.


Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 419
RE: Do all women want to be slaves as the Gor says? - 6/25/2007 8:51:12 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
The gathering/party I was a co-host of. The rules for the party were posted and sent via email before the event.


Ahh, I interpreted your statement about "going to" a BDSM club as your going out to attend someone else's event.  Thank you for the clarification.  If he violated the rules of an in-role event that he consented to in advance, then he's the one who deserved ejection.  Folks who really aren't prepared to follow through with a scene they consented to have pretty much one option, and that's to leave or be removed if they're disruptive to everyone else's scening.


quote:

The male slave was lucky to leave under his own power, as the rules at these gathers were absolute, when I was younger I had no reservations about enforcing my will how ever I needed to.


If that was in the rules he agreed to when he walked in the door, then his behavior was his problem and so were the consequences, up to the limit of his previously given consent.  That wouldn't apply at a general open BDSM event, but private events are private events and are considered more akin to consensual group scenes. 

quote:

Had it been at a club or someone else's party, I would have just ignored it, unless it came became a problem within my sphere of influence.


Glad to have it confirmed you're not an asshole. I'd definitely come to think better of you than that, and was really surprised to hear that you'd "gone to" an event and done something like that.  Hosting a private one under your own rules is a whole different ball of wax.


quote:

All of the above is an aside from the spectacle the Domme allowed and how poorly it reflected on her.


It's certainly possible that even leatherfolk would consider that his behavior was a poor reflection on her.  It would be at an event of ours where any kind of formal protocol was expected, if he was presented as her property or part of her leather family or household.  It's possible she was an inexperienced novice, and so was he.  You'd have a better take on that than me since you were there.

Is it possible that their relationship was other than a D/s one?  I had the annoying experience of going with a friend - not a sub, just a friend - to a femdom event, and having my friend get yelled at by some overly self-important femdom because he was not behaving submissively to me.  Well duuuh, no, he wasn't submissive to me.  We didn't have that relationship and I didn't want that relationship.  We were just casual buddies.  I'm sure that some of the snobs considered that this reflected poorly on me, since he was "with" me (we shared a ride to the event) and he was a male submissive, but frankly, I don't give a damn.  I don't have (and very definitely do not want) a D/s relationship with the entire world at large. 

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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