RE: Masters and slaves marrying

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RE: Masters and slaves marrying

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RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 4:20:41 PM

Karynn

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Tal Orion,

Thank you for reiterating a point I was trying so hard to make but not successfully accomplishing on my own stead. Your words summarized well what I had been trying to communicate.

Karyn

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In all things, to thine own self be true.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 61

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 4:24:59 PM

ygraine

Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
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Tal, greetings and hello all,
Not sure if this is another thread, or a sideline to this one, but here goes: What if a man and woman are already married and he collars her? This would be a scenario where they were perhaps not knowledgable about Gor but were living in a natural order type household, then he, for whatever reason, found Gor, embraced it, and found her to be his love slave(for example) and collared her. Is that a reasonable event within the Gorean ethos?
I am not sure how blurry the line between FC and slave is in a marriage. It seems to me, if you are with a Gorean man, your role is to be pleasing and a helpmate in the home no matter what your status. How would a FC or a slave really be different when there is a marriage, which implies common goals and some responsibility on the part of the woman?
I am not sure we live in a world where a woman can be simply chattel, without having (inside or outside of the home) responsibilities or making decisions. I think it is difficult to be the classic slave of a Gorean man under those circumstances.
This does not reflect even an opinion of mine; I just don't know how all this fits together. It seems a woman who is already married would be hard pressed to become completely enslaved, but I would love to hear from those who have done it.
I wish you all the best,
Ygraine.

< Message edited by ygraine -- 6/18/2007 4:29:22 PM >

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Post #: 62

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 5:20:39 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
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Greetings Stephan,

I hope your homecoming to the States has been a pleasant one.

You bring up good points, but there were legal contracts, bargains and such on Gor. So while there was not marriage ( in the legal sense it is the combining of two entitities, depending upon jurisdiction) there are things similar that we can compare, and extrapalate (sp? yeah I am lazy right now) that.

Marriage does not automatically mean equals, though many jurisdictions now give the same legal claims to both, concerning property. Look to the word husband and what it meant, look to the bible, kuran, historical documents pre-. 150 years or so. Women still wanted to marry, even though they knew they would be treated by a different standard. Why was that? Some women did not, but a great majority did. Marriage is a custom, and tradition that is older than burial rights. It is the claiming of a female, for sole procreation, and fulfillment of other responsibilities. Some will say this was one sided, but the Man should provide shelter, food, protection and security for their property. Other than that, marriage differs from person to person, just as anything else that transpires between two people.

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

The gordian knot is wrapped in a paradox of 'consensual' slavery. Slavery implies a legally inescapable status of ownership (I mentioned something about TPE/APE relationships being illusions, but illusions with power over here.) A woman in the western world (for the purposes of our conversation here) is only a slave for as long as she consents to being a slave. It isn't a one time decision, it's a decision she makes daily with each action and each moment she continues to willingly serve.

So, more conflicting issues; a Gorean man may do as he wishes: including marrying his slave. Indeed, in some societies, marrying a woman is little different from assuming ownership of her. A slave would, seemingly, have no choice if her owner chooses to marry. There are many practical reasons for a man to marry his slave, to boot.

Yet it still rests with the owner's decision if it's right for him to marry her or not. Indeed, marriage means different things to different people; some men can't imagine marrying his girl, as it would suggest she is somehow his 'equal.' Others see it as a piece of paper that ensures braces can go on the kids. I don't think it's a question of right or wrong, since marriage doesn't exist in the first place in Gorean ethos.

Stephan

nd

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Post #: 63

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 5:23:25 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Joined: 10/11/2006
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Muddied waters ahead as literal and philosphical worlds collide.

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Tal, greetings and hello all,
Not sure if this is another thread, or a sideline to this one, but here goes: What if a man and woman are already married and he collars her? This would be a scenario where they were perhaps not knowledgable about Gor but were living in a natural order type household, then he, for whatever reason, found Gor, embraced it, and found her to be his love slave(for example) and collared her. Is that a reasonable event within the Gorean ethos?
I am not sure how blurry the line between FC and slave is in a marriage. It seems to me, if you are with a Gorean man, your role is to be pleasing and a helpmate in the home no matter what your status. How would a FC or a slave really be different when there is a marriage, which implies common goals and some responsibility on the part of the woman?
I am not sure we live in a world where a woman can be simply chattel, without having (inside or outside of the home) responsibilities or making decisions. I think it is difficult to be the classic slave of a Gorean man under those circumstances.
This does not reflect even an opinion of mine; I just don't know how all this fits together. It seems a woman who is already married would be hard pressed to become completely enslaved, but I would love to hear from those who have done it.
I wish you all the best,
Ygraine.

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Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

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Post #: 64

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 5:30:23 PM

slaveryinlove

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Joined: 10/24/2005
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Greetings Masters, Mistress and fellow slaves

This girl has learned a lot through her reading on this topic and has found that her opinion really does not matter but what her Master's opinion is does matter..at least that is the consenses this girl is getting... Master Orion, this girl does agree with You on the fact that men were marrying woman a long time ago and that early in life women were often treated like slaves...girl sees that slavery has taken form in many ways shape and form and that marriage has been invovled in that through out life...a girl maybe a slave no matter who she is or what she wears.. at least that this girl's humble opinion

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 65

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 8:38:13 PM

Sylverdawn

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Greetings

I would say you without meaning too have hit the nail on the head... "wives were treated like slaves" not as slaves.. and that is the crux of the matter. A slave is a slave.. a wife is a wife... two completely seperate statuses legally, socially, and culturally.

SylverDawn

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(in reply to slaveryinlove)

Post #: 66

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 9:03:11 PM

OrionTheWolf

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So which cultural, societal, and legal system do we use to determine slavery? You cannot say the Gorean one from the books in a literal sense, as that form is illegal in most of the world. Do we use the societal system from the books? Well that is pretty mutable, as the best we can do is emulate it. Culturally we cannot practice it either, since that culture is fictional and due to the two previously stated, again at best it is an emulation. We practice consentual slavery, so it really is a willing engagement of a human behavior. There for we look to the basis of the philosophies that are used. If a female feels that to follow her nature she is a slave, and the owner of that slave enters into marriage with her, then is a switch flipped in her nature and she is no longer a slave? Can a female be two things at the same time? Do the obligations of a wife run contrary to that of a slave?

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Greetings

I would say you without meaning too have hit the nail on the head... "wives were treated like slaves" not as slaves.. and that is the crux of the matter. A slave is a slave.. a wife is a wife... two completely seperate statuses legally, socially, and culturally.

SylverDawn

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Post #: 67

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 9:14:28 PM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Greetings

I would say you without meaning too have hit the nail on the head... "wives were treated like slaves" not as slaves.. and that is the crux of the matter. A slave is a slave.. a wife is a wife... two completely seperate statuses legally, socially, and culturally.

SylverDawn

Greetings..~smiles~

This does think that most understand as clearly cut and dry When the 2 status's actually existed, and were supported. This is not the case any longer. The status of slave does not exist in any legalized society acceptance that most posters here live within, and the attempt to utilized the society status of "wife" or "marriage" without it's opposition "slave status" seems to this girl as tipping and using aspects of societal standards and allowances in a one sided manner.

See's no logical groundwork in using marriage to change status of a slave to wife simply because slave is not even recognized by society as a status. Therefore the status itself can and is only supported by those who wish to make it real within their own lives or accept others that do.

How can you change from a status that does not exist to a status that does exist. If one wishes to use the contention that being a slave is real to them. Thats exactly it. It is real to them and those involved.

The law and society doesn't and wont recognize a person as a slave in any manner discussed here..yet societys acceptance and standards regarding marriage is so easily used to try and show there is a actual status change. Yes..from single or divorcee or fiance or significant other to wife. There is no slave status in there inwhich to change that would alter a slaves status to begin with..Except..to those willing it so.

Just seems to be only using half an equation in order to support a persons personal choices regarding a issue in attempt to make it factual. :/

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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(in reply to Sylverdawn)

Post #: 68

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 9:14:35 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

So which cultural, societal, and legal system do we use to determine slavery? You cannot say the Gorean one from the books in a literal sense, as that form is illegal in most of the world. Do we use the societal system from the books? Well that is pretty mutable, as the best we can do is emulate it. Culturally we cannot practice it either, since that culture is fictional and due to the two previously stated, again at best it is an emulation. We practice consentual slavery, so it really is a willing engagement of a human behavior. There for we look to the basis of the philosophies that are used. If a female feels that to follow her nature she is a slave, and the owner of that slave enters into marriage with her, then is a switch flipped in her nature and she is no longer a slave? Can a female be two things at the same time? Do the obligations of a wife run contrary to that of a slave?

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Greetings

I would say you without meaning too have hit the nail on the head... "wives were treated like slaves" not as slaves.. and that is the crux of the matter. A slave is a slave.. a wife is a wife... two completely seperate statuses legally, socially, and culturally.

SylverDawn

Greetings Orion,

It's been a hell of a trip. Mostly good, though.

You're hitting the nail here. The missing pieces are still the paradox, though. Slavery, as we know it (historically, legally, and per the books in question) was a legal, cultural, and sociatal institution. Slavery as we practice it, is only a personal and (to a very small degree) cultural institution. It means only what it means between owner and slave, and to a very small group of individuals who recognize such slavery for what it is. This small group is still a society, but it is a society within a society.

Legally, one could brand a slave without their consent. Legally, one cannot brand his wife, girlfriend, or voluntary slave without her consent (in the Western world.) Yet within a group of Goreans, it would be understood that if the slave is there and attempts to refuse to be branded, married or not, she has already submitted to her owners will, and implicitly consented to the branding if he wishes it. Yet, this is still unacceptable behavior from the larger (Western) societies perspective, and illegal.

We can say that the Free Companionship is similar to marriage, but it's still apples and oranges. The legal and cultural structures that existed on Gor simply don't exist in our world.

The bottom line, though, is that Goreans on Earth aren't from Gor; they are from Earth. Their decision to live their lives according to philosophies they deem Gorean is a private, indivdual choice. How they choose to interperate those choices (i.e. to marry their slave or not) is their burden alone.

I hope that was coherent enough.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 69

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 11:08:20 PM

Leonidas

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quote:

The law and society doesn't and wont recognize a person as a slave in any manner discussed here..yet societys acceptance and standards regarding marriage is so easily used to try and show there is a actual status change. Yes..from single or divorcee or fiance or significant other to wife. There is no slave status in there inwhich to change that would alter a slaves status to begin with..Except..to those willing it so.

So there is some legally supported status called "signifiant other" from which one can change? You seem to be suggesting that in order for a status to exist, it must be legally enforceable (the basis of your argument that the status "slave" does not exist). As far as I know, the there is no legally enforceable "fiancee" status either, and hasn't been since courts stopped hearing cases of breech of promise and alienation of affection. As I said above, perhaps you don't see slavery as a separate, accepted status. That says something about you, and nothing more. By the way, there is nothing in the definition of slave (at least according to merriam and webster) that requires that slavery be involuntary or legally enforceable. Look it up, if you like.

The OP asked about the Gorean view of such matters. You don't have to hold that view, but it's a little arrogant to claim that there is no such view just because you don't happen to hold it. Don't you think?

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 6/18/2007 11:10:48 PM >

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Post #: 70

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/18/2007 11:19:11 PM

Kirata

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From: USA
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Tal and greetings all,

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the concept of the Home Stone in this context. To Goreans, a Free Man is Ubar in his own domain. Even those Gorean societies that did not employ the symbol of a Home Stone clearly embodied the same concept in their cultures. So it is difficult for me to imagine how a man can accept the legal entanglements of Western marriage and continue to describe himself or his M/s relationship as "Gorean".

It's about the man, to be sure, but what can one say about a man who proclaims himself Gorean and then engages in behavior that makes a mockery of Gor while claiming the Gorean right of an Ubar in his own domain as his defense? You can't enter into a contract with a slave. Period. If you want to marry her, free her. What the hell is the problem?

Whether or not her behavior continues to be slavelike in private is another matter. It's just that around everybody else, she is a Free Woman and needs to act like one. Of course, if the man or the woman, or both, just can't live without him trotting her out and showing her off as his "slave", well, that's a problem alright -- but if having everybody know that he owns a slave, and that she is one, is more important to them, what can we conclude from that?

Be well,

Kirata

< Message edited by Kirata -- 6/18/2007 11:35:53 PM >

(in reply to slaveryinlove)

Post #: 71

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 1:31:41 AM

millisande

Posts: 182
Joined: 7/19/2005
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Greetings, Masters.
Greetings, Mistresses.
Greetongs, brothers and sisters of the chain.

In general response to the OP (having unfortunately not had the chance to read all of the replies yet), bina would offer that if it pleases the owner of a girl to marry her, then there is no reason that she can think of that he should not. There are a number of reasons to do so, for intance, having legal medical rights over her, and the children she may birth for him, insurance issues, down to simple things like granting her the ability to attend him at events where only spouses are welcome (girl/boy friends being a no-no).

The owner of this girl chose to make her his wife, when and because it suited him. She has not noted any lessened feeling of slavery, nor did she note that he mentioned feeling any less Gorean, nor less 'Masterly' or whatever the appropriate term might be.

Please, she asks that no one sees this as an attack on them or their views, as that is not how it was intended.

With all respect, and in hopes that this is pleasing to the Free,
bina, Master Wolffeathers' kajira

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Post #: 72

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 5:21:27 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Tal and greetings all,

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the concept of the Home Stone in this context. To Goreans, a Free Man is Ubar in his own domain. Even those Gorean societies that did not employ the symbol of a Home Stone clearly embodied the same concept in their cultures. So it is difficult for me to imagine how a man can accept the legal entanglements of Western marriage and continue to describe himself or his M/s relationship as "Gorean".

It's about the man, to be sure, but what can one say about a man who proclaims himself Gorean and then engages in behavior that makes a mockery of Gor while claiming the Gorean right of an Ubar in his own domain as his defense? You can't enter into a contract with a slave. Period. If you want to marry her, free her. What the hell is the problem?

Whether or not her behavior continues to be slavelike in private is another matter. It's just that around everybody else, she is a Free Woman and needs to act like one. Of course, if the man or the woman, or both, just can't live without him trotting her out and showing her off as his "slave", well, that's a problem alright -- but if having everybody know that he owns a slave, and that she is one, is more important to them, what can we conclude from that?

Be well,

Kirata

Kirata,

Don't you suppose that paying taxes on your home constitutes exactly the same sort of legal entanglement? After all, if the home is indeed your Home Stone, why are you beholden to the government? Same goes if you wish to install a swimming pool, and must pay building permits. Or if you choose to strike your child for misbehaving.

Goreans regularly and fluidly decide exactly what extent they permit the outside world to dictate how they live. Home Stone doesn't just refer to your house; it refers to your community. Most communities expect that a relationship between a man and a woman as intimate as what you know as slavery, would be on par with marriage.

To boot, as I suggested before, doesn't the final authority rest with the man who makes such a decision?

Have a fine morning,

Stephan

_____________________________

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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Post #: 73

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 5:29:31 AM

Ownedslaveheart

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greetings..this one can only say that Masters do not marry Their slaves within the Gorean lifestyle. Anything close to marrying would be for Him to release you and become His FreeCompanion....*shrugs*.....then again, why not enjoy being His slave, wear His collar with honor and pride and be the slave that you truly are...His slave....this one wishes you the best of luck to you and your Master

(in reply to slaveryinlove)

Post #: 74

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 5:50:33 AM

xBullx

Posts: 3962
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-fast reply-

I will make one simple point. I had to come to this realization at one time and it appears some others should consider as much.

I would like for the Gorean condition to be easy, easy for me to make whatever I wanty it to be. Something I could shape any ole way to make it any ole thing I want. Now, while I agree that somethings are indeed negotiable and most like have to be, there are some customs that when disgarded simply make Gor, M/s.

What is sometimes needed to consider is that at times we are only considering how something applies to us personally and not what is the standard or custom of the collective. We stomp our feet and say, no, that won't work the way I want it too and it draws my theory into question. Well, we don't always get our way. I see several folks wanting to make Gor apply to them versus applying themselves to a Gorean example. If folks don't want an example that seperates them from the general example, then fine, but don't expect all of us to except you as practicing a Gorean trait. Stomp your feet all you want, but even in the legal aspect of the great planet Earth, a wife owns HALF your shit, would a slave in the Gorean idea? Sure you can have a legal document that stops her from owning things pre marriage, but during we know that won't hold up.

Perhaps some should just stop and evaluate their lives. Perhaps you either don't want to face the Gorean truth, or you aren't really wanting to accept it because you have it wrong and want to force the square peg into the round hole.

So what if your woman is a slave and you made her your wife..... Does a Gorean allow the woman to determine what she is to him? I'm doing this quick as I am on the road, just made a quick stop to contribute. Thanks.

Live well,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 6/19/2007 6:18:37 AM >

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I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

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Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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Post #: 75

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 5:53:18 AM

starshineowned

Posts: 1551
Joined: 4/19/2005
From: Texas
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Greetings..~smiles~

Apologys Master Leonidas as does seem there is a mis-communication on stars part somewhere to have taken up your time in responding. If not mistaken ..star does believe the aspect of

quote:

" You seem to be suggesting that in order for a status to exist, it must be legally enforceable (the basis of your argument that the status "slave" does not exist)."

was put in a manner to show that such a belief belongs solely to those who choose to believe it for its existence to be valid and recognized.

Due to that being the case because being a slave or believing in its real presence of status amongst those who choose to recognize it "Despite" the legality of it..goes on to lead that just because Marriage is validly recognized by society as a valid change in status..does not mean it has to or will be recognized by those who believe in slavery or being a slave or that they will choose to subscribe to what society places on that status in the same manner. So being a slave (which is not valid beyond her Master, herself, and their peers) and becoming married to Master (which the legal status says is wife) does not mean that Master, herself, or their peers will recognize it for what the society says it is, anymore than society will recognize she is a slave to begin with.

Fiance, Significant Other while are not legalized by ceremony..they do hold Acceptable status's within the societys eyes, and with that status they are given different treatments.

Additionally it would seem from reading the posts here from some of those calling themselves Goreans (Free), and some propertys(slaves of Goreans) are indeed using this Westernized practice of Earth to their advantage. So this then does what? Give way to those calling themselves Goreans the one upmanship to deligate and religate those as not Goreans? So take it beyond this one issue to what has already been posted regarding to following of other inplace Westernized ways. What then? Anyone who doesn't sell their slave, kill or hamstring their slave, obeys civil westernized and community laws, pays taxes are not then Gorean also? Why is it that only certain Westernized aspects are valid for use to show Gorean or not Gorean simply because they would not cause a Gorean undo problems or they are only things that no body else in the westernized world would give a care to one way or another? Go out and kill a slave or stop paying your taxes. Run that red light because to sit at it would make you late for work, and explain to the judge that the accident happened because your Gorean and don't feel like obeying their laws because well..they aren't Gorean.

Sorry but this is just so frustrating at times it makes a persons head spin as to the picking and choosing of only certain things to follow or not but if those certain things don't jive with exactly what You (generalized) go with..then suddenly they are not what they claim to be?

Is that really all that determines the validity and value amongst those choosing to use the Gorean label? Infact..whats even Gorean about any of those issues? The mere fact that a person decides to use that label to live life?

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 6/19/2007 6:30:14 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 76

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 5:56:11 AM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
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quote:

You can't enter into a contract with a slave. Period. If you want to marry her, free her. What the hell is the problem?

Whether or not her behavior continues to be slavelike in private is another matter. It's just that around everybody else, she is a Free Woman and needs to act like one. Of course, if the man or the woman, or both, just can't live without him trotting her out and showing her off as his "slave", well, that's a problem alright -- but if having everybody know that he owns a slave, and that she is one, is more important to them, what can we conclude from that?

Hi Master Kirata,

So even though the woman is still psychologically enslaved, lives absolutely, unconditinally, and abjectly under his will and can't leave the relationship of her own volition, the only thing different is she is now also his wife. She should comport herself as a free woman in the Gorean community? Gorean men will treat her as free?

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 6/19/2007 5:57:06 AM >

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 77

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 6:06:50 AM

fyreredsub

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Fast reply,

greetings Master Bull,

Fyre wishes to thank you for this very thought with in what seems to have become a complex topic

as for some reason,which escapes fyres brain, does much of the philosophy when the books spell it all out.

" Perhaps you either don't want to face the Gorean truth, or you aren't really wanting to except it because you have it wrong and want to force the square peg into the round hole. "

disclaimer* fyre did not post this to start the your Gor, my Gor topic for that was well explained to this girl the other day or any other reason except to say
She just simply appreciates the hard line Gorean thought and is grateful to read it.

< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 6/19/2007 6:11:18 AM >

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"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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Post #: 78

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 6:10:57 AM

cambrianna

Posts: 1
Joined: 3/24/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

And Frank, if your slave bares you sons, they too, are slaves, not free men. Born slaves, born to a slave woman. Slaves in the Gorean ideals, nothing more or less. At least you got the marriage thing right.

Pardon this girl for her interjection, but do not the books also state that if a Gorean man wished to bear children of His slave, that he may free her temporarily and live as his free companion for the term of pregnancy and to bear that child, that the child may be born a Free Man or Free Woman? Many have that choice,

Congratulations to B/both of Y/you, Wolfblade Sir, and slaveryinlove

The One i am speaking to in my life has beliefs as well, in His eyes, a collar is like a wedding band, that girl would treat it as if she married Him, also would have a wedding and leagally wed that if aught happened to either of U/us someone will be able to care for any children. and I honestly do not believe in raising children in the lifestyle, meaning i do not believe in training them to be slave or Dominant as they grow up.. now if they hit the age of 18 and decide they wish to do so, they are adult and old enough to make that decision. but for me, any child i have will be free of the lifestyle, will not be MADE to learn or even purposefully taught because it is wrong to force anything on anyone and basically thats what it seems like when you raise a child to be submissive/slave or Dominant

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 79

RE: Masters and slaves marrying - 6/19/2007 7:40:19 AM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1711
Status: offline

Greetings fyre,

Bull has many times over the years pointed out simply because I want something to be considered Gorean doesn’t make it so.   In fact we have had many such disagreements over certain topics.   So usually when that happens, we shelve the discussion and I’ll mull over it, read about it, and realize what he said made a lot of sense to me.   Then I get to hear, “Bout time Liz” ~laughs~

Ygraine brought up the fuzzy line between FC, wife and slave. And heck I sure don’t have all the answers.   But I have thought about it, and while Bob and I are not married yet, we will be soon, and are FC’s. Why are we getting married if we are FC’s? I get asked that question a lot. In fact some vanilla friends of ours drill me about it.

The state we live in does not recognize domestic partners, so for legality purposes we have chosen to get married.   We have chosen.   That is, I think, the huge difference. Chosen. Slaves do not have the right to choose. Ahh…now, I can hear someone saying, but he didn’t “ask” me he told me. Ok, yes that maybe true, but when you stand in front of a magistrate, priest, preacher, that person will ASK you, “Do you take this man to be your husband”. At that point you “choose” to say yes.   I have yet to be at a wedding ceremony where it is stated, You WILL take this man to be your husband.   I read one of the posts where the wife stated she said, “obey” in her vows, well, I too am very conservative, (whatta surprise), and when we do get married, I too will say obey. Does that make me a slave? No, it makes me a wife.

Jahna has written wonderful eloquent posts, as has Karyn.   Both of them have said, why put a label on what you are to your man?   Well, I have to disagree; we do put a label on ourselves because we are Gorean. And as “living Gorean”, there are only two statuses for women, free or slave.   And as a free woman, I can decide IF I want to be a free companion, I can decide if I want to be able to take advantage of the legal marital status.

Men can and do marry their slaves, and argue till doomsday, but that slave is now a wife.   There are many good and valid reasons to marry, but once that happens she becomes his partner, entitled by law to half of all assets during the course of their marriage.   What are slaves entitled to? Nothing. If a slave chooses to leave a relationship, she leaves.   Men can choose to grant them physical assets, but by our lifestyle philosophy, but they do NOT have to.   Leave a marriage? And guess what, she gets half. THAT is fact in Ohio. I cannot state that categorically for any other state, but in Ohio it is law.

I wish you well,

Liz

(in reply to cambrianna)

Post #: 80

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