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RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 7:59:03 AM

xBullx

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Tal Luther,

I had to go back and read what I wrote that wasn't up to par......

I attempted to bring out a point from something I remembered reading in a what I "thought" was Outlaws, I assume because you didn't have the quote, I'm nuts and obviously mistaken. The custom is to offer, perhaps my not so properly contructed post structure and choice of wording made it seem a custom to decline as well. My bad. I meant that declining was simply a courtesy. In my opinion, in the case I was thinking about an honorable courtesy. To be honest, if I had but one girl, and me living on this planet of ours, filled with STD's and thought some horn dog I bearly knew or even a man I knew would take me up on using my only girl, one I valued more than my John Deere ( I can't believe I just said that) I doubt I'd offer at all, and then this is all a moot point.

However, I did make it sound that the declination of her use was a "must" adhered to part of the custom. So I did not define my thoughts the best. I assure you that isn't a first for me. I'm not, nor have I ever proclaimed a great scholarly proficiency. The point I was attempting to illustrate was in the case of a man having just one slave that he cared for greatly, that while he would most likely follow the custom of offering the girl for the nights comfort; a noble, selfless guest would more times than not, respectfully decline the offer. Again, maybe I just dreamt this example and never read anything.

I was out to present the idea a man "may" offer his only slut, that does not mean it is expected you accept; that was the only point I was after in that reference. If I'm lucky, fyre, fairer or one of the other girls around here will remember the instance I am speaking of or look up the quote I can't recall exactly. I also believe that I spoke to the fact of the other examples in the books. And judging by the quotes you chose, the homes all seemed rather large. Do you suppose they had an abundance of girls so they could provide guests with comforts? Some folks tend to entertain more than others. Just a thought.

I'll work harder in the future to be careful with my wording. I surely wouldn't want to be struck down by that dreaded blue flame due to my blasphemous outbursts. Thanks for showing me the error in my ways. I think just because of this instance, perhaps I'll create myself a disclaimer for my signature line. That or I'll have to take to memorizing the books, or cataloging the quotes.

Now beyond knowing all the quotes and having the quotes memorized. I find it rather important to find a way to make the values, virtues, some of the customs and practices applicable to what the heck I do each day, how I am living. I'm not just making philosophical websites, I'm attempting to apply some of this to my life. I was attempting to illustrate that it is not such a bad thing, and not all that UN-Gorean to not want to offer your slave, and that even if you follow the custom and offer her, a man may actually have the gracious sensability to decline. I know very few men with a pleasure garden filled with sluts. most have one; IF they're that lucky.

My object, though obviously unclear wasn't to teach the letter of the books, but perhaps illustrate a logical "custom" or practice that might be well received in our actual daily existance.

(Side note) If you sluts out there think for one second I would suggest this in the attempt to coddle you, placate you, propose this in attempt to shelter your fears or make you feel special, forget that. I'm still the seem asshole I've always been.

The Not so Scholarly Cowpoke,

Bull

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Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

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Post #: 21

RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 8:20:10 AM

fyreredsub

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Greetings Master Bull,

fyre does not have access to her volumes at the office for exact quote but she is thinking in Book 4 Nomads ...where Tarl turns down use of elizabeth(vella) to Kamchak's offer of her when they went to some tent show and were drinking paga in the beginning/MIDDLE of the book?or around that part somewhere.

(why one needs to read the set more than once)

hope this helps

(Side note) If you sluts out there think for one second I would suggest this in the attempt to coddle you, placate you, propose this in attempt to shelter your fears or make you feel special, forget that. I'm still the seem asshole I've always been.

Master Bull you wouldnt be your warm wonderful self any other way

edited for typo

< Message edited by fyreredsub -- 7/3/2007 9:04:22 AM >

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RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 9:43:24 AM

xBullx

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Greetings Leonidas,

I could be wrong, but I do believe that you just dissed my pick-up. Or was it me? <---(that was supposed to be funny)

Is my pick-up less than a pick-up if I don't abuse it and neglect it's care and maintenance? That question is actually a lot to do about nothing, so no response is actually required. I know what my pick-up is and what it's for.

So maybe you meant that she is just a slave. A slave is after all simply a slut, and sluts seem to like men, and men seem to like sluts; so perhaps a man shouldn't feel threatened by a simple swat of appreciation on the ass of his pretty slut? Hell, that is what men do, isn't it? Gander at all the pretty girls. You surely don't think this protective attitude has anything to do with the notion that slaves aren't just property anymore, in fact they are now potential wives as well.

Somehow I doubt you are any less impressed by a man touching your porperty than the next guy, Hell, you made an entire thread that seems to demonstrate that.

Perhaps this thread is simply needing a better clarification as to it's intent. Caitlyn seemed to be thinking it was simply about a swat. Other's have made it about the Gorean practice of property protection, I tried to add something to the premise it isn't always bad to protect your interests (therefore trying to draw on common analogies), but in the end, amongst honorable men, that may not always be a big concern. (that was the reason I attemped to draw reference to the story I believe was in "Outlaws". Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that what you said on the oppsoing view that their are not enough men you would trust, hense you question their credibility or their honorable intentions. Thanks though, you surely addressed within your opinion, the lack of relevance that my pick-up maintained to the general discussion.

Maybe your point shows the difference in how men tend to place concern on objects within their control. Or maybe you just wanted to reduce the signifcance of my idea. Sort of like Luther seemingly discredited my point that a man could "graciously decline" the offer, as something being held within the content of the books, hense not very Gorean?

But heck, you tell me. I'm just a Tuchuk (U.S.D.A. ceritfied Country F_ck) of sorts out here trying to bring a plan together.

Shruggingly,

Bull

Edited to clarify a few points.......and fix a word or two....

< Message edited by xBullx -- 7/3/2007 10:36:53 AM >

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Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

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Post #: 23

RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 10:56:01 AM

edana

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quote:

they sure do! but if one of them guys were to touch, look out! all hell breaks loose . but also i been with some guys that blame me for attracting other guys....its my fault for acting like a slut....guys are so weird lol

I don't assume that i am alone in this, but growing up in a very strict home and always seemed to be surrounded by men, I have heard. "you are a whore" from the time i was about 10 years old.

I spent 7 years married to a man who used to come home every day and look for tire tracks in the yard to see who his lil wife had been f*ing. Or in the gorcerie store with a baby on my hip and one in the cart buying diapers and a man turns to look at me. My ex would flip out and glare at me and tell me to button up my shirt or that the baby on my hip was making my skirt ride up... that i was making them do it, and i should stop. *sighs!

It was and still is quite a change having it be OK that men look at me. Ok to my owner, and learning that that means its OK for me too. From a slap on the ass to, actual sexual use, it is all a service to Him, and that is what matters.

I still have to remind myself, and He still has to help me remember on days when i take a trip down "memory lane"...

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Post #: 24

RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 11:02:36 AM

Luther6

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Tal Bull:
   Apparently you misunderstood my previous post on this thread. I simply pointed out that the books do not specifically delineate a custom where the man offered the hospitality of a slave must decline it. I made no prior judgment whether such behavior is "Gorean" or not. But let me address that issue now for clarity sake.

Could a guest graciously decline an offer of such hospitality? Sure. Would such a declination be non-Gorean? No, it would not. It would not violate any Gorean principle and might very well be the most honorable course of conduct dependent on the circumstances.

Plus, the later quotes in my previous post were supportive of the fact that not all owners would offer a guest the hospitality of a slave.  That certainly supports additional viewpoints that have already been presented in this thread.

Luther

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Post #: 25

RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 11:44:51 AM

Musicmystery

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Lots of good points here, so forgive just a quick check-in, as I don't want to direct the conversation, but see where it heads and what others think.

But quickly--

Leonidas, thanks for that clarification (edana too). I'm lucky in that nittaa's mother was a slave, so I really had a head start in training her, since I wasn't fighting an obstinate cultural mindset (even her family members wouldn't think of hugging her without asking my permission--not my rule, just their appreciation that nittaa is my property).

Several points speak to Gorean ethics, and while I don't agree with that as simply "might makes right," we already have a thread for that discussion (which I've been meaning to get to--lots of work here, though).

smilezz, your Master and I agree on this point. In my absence, nittaa is to protect my property.

Now, the sharing point and the book quote issue--

While I have railed against it, I'm not adverse at all to quoting from the books per se--I even intend to post something I've found later when work dies down a bit. I'm NOT fond of "It says XYZ on page 666 of 'Strict Constructionists of Gor,' so that's that." However, pulling out quotes for illustrative purposes is useful, and I appreciate it when people do that to support their points.

Misconceptions about sharing slaves may come right from the start, in Tarnsman, when Tarl's dad offers him the use of a tower slave. Keep in mind, though, that (1) he's offering a slave to his son, (2) he clearly cares nothing for the girl, (3) he doesn't hesitate to sacrifice a slave (the mission Tarl is sent on will mean the girl's death), (4) and what does Tarl do? Frees the girl, refuses when she offers herself (and this act of honor buys him key support from her city later), and in taking on the mission himself, meets his free companion (OK, first she needs a little work...).

The point about courtesy is a good one. Consider, for example, when you do a huge amount of work as a favor. You don't expect anything in return, but the recipient of the favor should offer compensation of some sort. You will refuse it, of course--but you expect the offer. Likewise wtih the offer of a slave--especially one clearly valued, as many slaves are on Earth.

Best,

Tim

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Post #: 26

RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 12:01:50 PM

xBullx

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Howdy Luther,

It is easy to misunderstand a man's thoughts here. Words tend to loose that emotional edge if not actually stated. I had assumed a bit much as to your intent perhaps. I like to kid and jest some, myself.

I do believe you were within reason to point out it wasn't a custom to decline an offer. I did word that poorly. I thought you were stating though that my recolection about the instances was fabricated and that did kinda bite my ass, a bit. But thanks for the explanation, it helped.

I would also like to point out something I didn't mention about declining an offer of a man's slave, you might offend him. He might wonder why you think his property is not good enough for you. So it's best you understand the customs of men. Or perhaps someday we'll have to create a more uniform set of customs as it applies to us within our present and actual cultural conditions.

Thanks Again,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to Luther6)

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Post #: 27

RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 12:46:30 PM

tangy

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hello edana,

i also been in a relationship sorta like that i guess, alot of jealousy and abuse on his part....but i think he would have been like that no matter what i was wearing. i know i can be jealous also and to be honest im very jealous, but i wouldnt ever want another relationship like that ever again. i like to take care of myself and look nice, i like wearing revealing cloths as long as im with him, i dont see any problem with the way i dress. thanks for saring your thoughts :)

well wishes,
tangy

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Post #: 28

RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 3:21:56 PM

OrionTheWolf

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Seems tangy has been misbehaving again. 10 lashes for you tangy. So how long does it take to get off unmoderated status anyway?

Orion

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RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/3/2007 4:04:27 PM

tangy

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actually Master Orion, i pay the mod to keep me moderated cuz i love getting them lashings for being bad! its a dirty job but someones got to do it!

as always, well wishes,
tangy

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RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/7/2007 10:18:09 PM

Totalmaster4you

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Tal A/all,
Tal Tim
I'm not in a great mood at the moment so if I duplicate someones elses answer I apologize but I just couldn't read all the posts yet I wanted to respect you and provide my feedback, (Grrumpph) Just because I'm Gorean doesn't give me the privledge of laying hands on another mans property without asking his permission first. Asking for service like get me a drink if the M/s dynamic is known would be acceptable.but nothing physical. What that jackass did to your slave could be considered assault and it would have done much to improve his understanding of keeping his hands to himself by spending a night in jail.
I wish you well
TM4Y

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RE: Your Policy on Property? - 7/8/2007 7:50:27 PM

Najakcharmer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
I wouldn't send edana to serve a man that I don't know, mostly because he'd probably end up being conflicted hairball of chivalry, courtly love, and all kinds of needy, and do nothing more than further her notions that that is what men are supposed to be like that she had 31 years to develop before I stripped and collared her. I don't need the aggrevation. I have no illusions about needing to "protect" edana from such men. I'm sure they'd be quicker, more polite, and generally less demanding than she's used to.

That is wise thinking. That, and there's that thrilling unwritten sequel to Tarl Cabot's adventures, "Free Clinics of Gor".