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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 8:00:02 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TigerNINTails

Absolutely, on the Arnis and Kali points. Escrima as well... In fact, the redondo strike of Arnis (or am I thinking of Escrima?) when I'm in a correct position to use it, with a cane or crop delivers a wonderful stripe...


Sorry, as I said, my experience with this is second-hand.
I'm still mostly working the hand-to-hand part of the curriculum for my own school.

Stick weapons (10-180cm) are at the "do basic exercises occasionally, so the body has time to assimilate the basics" level, for now. I haven't started any serious work with chain weapons yet, either. I'm quite familiar with the surface bruising / striping bits, though.

That's what I get for playing (on my own time) with exercises beyond my own level.

I'm looking forward to learning how to use a single-tail properly, though.

quote:


Because the movements, while not necessarily having to carry much weight would stripe and contact repeatedly very fast.


~nod~

It's easy to make things look and sound a lot more serious than they are.
Surface impacts can bruise easily, and can be delivered quickly.

quote:


So I agree also that control is really the predominant factor to safety, because for all the techniques you could learn, to understand the movement without understanding the control of that movement would do most people into the practice of striking with bare hands or fists and feet, more harm than good...


Definitely. There are a few moves that can be learnt well with little control, and some body dynamics that work without any. I would not like to see how that would turn out. That's why I only teach "tricks" to people I trust, people I know understand to treat it with the same respect they would a knife or a gun.

quote:

We used to practice that, actually, and that was go out and look at different people on the street... I had gotten pretty good at identifying when someone had a sports injury, from weight lifting, or football or something, judging by how they carried their shoulder, or took a step.


I haven't bothered much with sports injuries or things like that, but I sometimes get odd looks from people. They will be mentioning they're doing MA, and then I notice these things (I haven't made a habit of looking for it), so I go like "Ah, so-and-so style, right?" and they'll get this odd look and be all "How did you guess?" ~g~

It's kind of funny, really.

Most schools stick at the "mainstream" level of teaching fitness and maybe a bit of self defense. Some take it a few notches further, and work with a more complete physical curriculum and train harder. Very few schools take it close to the original pre-WW2 levels (for Japan; the Chinese arts show much the same popular vs serious distribution around here, and I suspect that holds elsewhere, too).

Mine goes eight out of the nine yards. We're not all "I don't care if that boken knocked you out, get back in line." But we do stick to hard impact training, and include the more esoteric parts of the curriculum, without straying into the woods, so to speak. (I'm sure you're familiar with where the lines between esoteric and nonsensical runs, and what it's like on both sides of that line; I just don't want to offend anyone.)

Mindset, ethics, and so forth are included, though one doesn't need to adopt it all. Those who have a historical interest can pick up the obsolete parts as well, like herbs, setting bones, etc. We're not that big on recruiting. If a student isn't willing to go the whole nine yards in a real conflict, we recommend another style, like aikido, since our training is based on the old (pre-Meiji) mindset. When they're looking for fitness / exercise, we point them at cardio kickboxing or whatever, which will give them more of that, and which they're more likely to stick with.

We try to avoid telegraphing the style.

My hands look like I've been doing Wado ryu, a look I try to maintain. Body dynamic wise I try to give an ambiguous impression, but I borrow the Shotokan tendency for an instep (I've never done Shotokan), which is one of the most obvious things to look for. All in all, I get the impression people view me as someone who did karate some years ago, for a little while.

That's quite to my liking.
Makes them expect blows, blind kicks and so forth.
I don't deliver on the expectations, as sparring partners have found out.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 8:01:51 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Kali may be a modern Americanized term.


Family term for Filipino arts, isn't it?

Only art I can recall that has Kali in the name, is Sayoc Kali.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 8:04:26 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Without meaning to sound rude, Aswad, I must tell you that my comment was addressed to prop


My apologies. I was speaking generally, using her as an example.

quote:

It was a personal musing about an individual and how she comes across to me.


Public personal musing, then.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 9:49:51 AM   
Archer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Arnis and Escrima are interchangeable names used to refer to the same basic group of Filipino martial arts.. An Escrimador is one who practices Arnis, or Escrima, or Arnis-Escrima
Kali may be a modern Americanized term.


History of Kali, Arnis, Escrima

Kali is an ancient term used to signify the martial arts in the region of the Philippines. In Southern Philippines, it is called Kali-Silat. Silat refers to the movements of the lower body. During Spanish occupation, they forbade the practice of Kali. The Spaniards called the art Escrima or Arnis. Hence, after this period, the martial arts of the Philippines, all three words were used to describe their art.

source: http://filipino-kali.gungfu.com/



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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 10:07:10 AM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Without meaning to sound rude, Aswad, I must tell you that my comment was addressed to prop


My apologies. I was speaking generally, using her as an example.

quote:

It was a personal musing about an individual and how she comes across to me.


Public personal musing, then.



Absolutely  . And we all know that she is subject to controversy (sorry, prop, for talking about you like that), and it was certainly not my intention to make her a further object of conversation. I really WAS addressing her, albeit in public. It's like this: one can have a one to one conversation in a public place: it doesn't necessarily mean everybody else has to tip in... but you understood that already.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 7/7/2007 10:08:20 AM >


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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 10:21:09 AM   
daddysprop247


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kittinSol, sorry for not addressing your comment earlier. Aswad is correct of course in that different people have different standards for what is and what is not appropriate or acceptable behavior for a slave. on the surface my Master may seem especially rigid or strict but imo he is not, his standards are just different from most. for instance, something that would be considered an offense worthy of extreme punishment or even possibly release in many relationships...like the slave sexually serving some stranger on the street who made advances toward her...is something that not only would my Master not punish me for, but he would express great pride and satisfaction because i had done what he expected of me.

however, something like being late to get myself ready for an outing, for the 7th time...that is an offense which warrants a violent punishment in this house. anything that signfies a lack in growth or improvement is going to warrant punishment, the severity of the punishment depending on the frustration my actions have caused.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 10:34:22 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

History of Kali, Arnis, Escrima

Kali is an ancient term used to signify the martial arts in the region of the Philippines. In Southern Philippines, it is called Kali-Silat. Silat refers to the movements of the lower body. During Spanish occupation, they forbade the practice of Kali. The Spaniards called the art Escrima or Arnis. Hence, after this period, the martial arts of the Philippines, all three words were used to describe their art.

source: http://filipino-kali.gungfu.com/





The martial arts may be second only to BDSM for making up history and tradition for what it is that they do....

There is plenty of reason to believe that Kalis is indeed an old word.... An old word for large knife or sword... it is more likely a modern American affectation to call an entire martial art 'Kali'.

The actual names for the various systems practiced in the many villages and families, were whatever the people handing them down felt like calling them.

These coalesced under 2 Spanish terms, Escrima, and Arnis. 


quote:

  
Filipino martial arts today are even more confusing. Arnis and Escrima are used to refer to the weapon arts of the Philippines today. Kali is actually used outside the Philippines to refer to the same art. The term Arnis de mano is especially misleading. The term Arnis is a varied form of the word Arnes, which refers to the decorative harnesses used by the actors in moro-moro stage displays. De mano simply means hands, and so a literal translation of Arnis de mano turns into 'harness of hand'. The manipulation of these harnesses during the stage plays impressed the Spanish who dubbed it Arnes de mano. The style Arnis, a Spanish term itself, uses many Spanish terms to describe its techniques such as Espada y daga. 
The term Eskrima is another wide-ranging term derived from the word Escrima, which is again derived from the Spanish term Esgrima that is the term for fencing. It is also believed to mean to skirmish but there is no evidence to support this.
The last term Kali is always the most controversial. Many martial arts schools and instructors believe the word Kali to be a combination of the words Kamut, which is hand, and Lihok, which is movement.  It is also believed to be the mother art of Arnis or Escrima but there is a lack of evidence to support this. Kali or Kahli as it is sometimes written, in Visayan as a type of stick, but not used to refer to the fighting art. Kali is also the Hindu Goddess of destruction, and the Moros of the Sulu archipelago would often go into battle dressed like the Goddess of Destruction. The more believable explanation is from the Tagalog word for a large bladed weapon, Kalis. This was shortened simply to Kali to refer to all bladed weapons. Its use in the West stems from the use of the word by Floro Villabrille who used this term to describe his art, and Dan Inosanto eventually popularized this. An interview with Antonio Illustrisimo in 1993 revealed that he only used the word out of convenience because foreign students recognized it, although he preferred the term Escrima because this is what it was called when he was learning from his uncles.



http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Tagalog/Modules/Modules/escrima/eskrima.htm

Silat is a term from the Indonesian arts, also conflated with ancient Filipino history about the earliest peoples coming from Malaysia, and the claims of certain individuals in Pentjak Silat to have invented every martial art known in the region...KunTao anyone?

And then from China, we have the GungFu/KungFu misnomer still fed from ongoing Bruce Lee worship.

Oh, and everything is thousands of years old to boot

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 11:42:56 AM   
DaddyBEAST


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Not My bag but I know 'punch play' is enjoyed by some. Normaly restricted to shoulders, arms, legs etc where there is no chance of internal injury.

'belly punching' is something again I know enjoyed by some, though not by anyone I know personaly and carries a MUCH higher risk of actual harm/possible FATAL injurys.

The former I could, IF I was interested in it, do without risk of actual harm, thus have little problem seeing where it could fall within a duty of care. The latter, the risks are simply too high for Me to see it in that light.



Quite a heated thread at times, and I haven't taken the time to read through it all, but I don't need to to know that RavenMuse is right that "belly punching" does pose risk.  How fatal depends on how trained somebody is to take a punch and the strength of the punch.

Houdini died from complications of a ruptured appendix resulting from multiple blows to his abdomen.

Hitting somebody hard enough in the solar plexus, area above the belly, can cause a heart to burst from the force pressure.

This is an area I'm quite knowledgeable in, having trained in martial arts for 14 years and still in practice, as well as having studied anatomy and physiology as an artist.



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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 11:47:29 AM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

Houdini died from complications of a ruptured appendix resulting from multiple blows to his abdomen.


Perhaps you should have read the whole thing... including the link to Snopes about the false Houdini myth.


That said, punching someone in vulnerable areas hard enough to cause damage does carry with it a considerable rsk, just like stabbing someone with a knife carries a risk. 

Neither of those practices are all that relevant to the topic of  BDSM scenes using controlled punching and knife play.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 7/7/2007 11:50:31 AM >

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 11:51:58 AM   
rollinonward05


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dpt, No you are not being naive. You are curious about something and wish to learn . There is nothing wrong with asking questions in hopes of some good and helpful advice.
The way I see this is there has to be a great deal of trust between the Master/Dom and the sub/slave.  As much of the activities that are experienced in this lifestyle. It also has to do with control. Not the control the Master/Dom has over the slave/ sub though yes there is that. But the control the Master/ Dom has over himself.  To know how much force should be used in punches and kicks. To know the slave /sub enough to know when they have had enough. And to be able to control themselves and not go past the point where control is lost and some other feeling or emotion takes over. Some akin this feeling to blood lust as a example.  Again this is like many of the other activities in this lifestyle.
So know the one you have given yourself to or the one you have taken as yours. Plain and simple.
rollin

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 12:03:48 PM   
mistoferin


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I've noticed that quite a few people have mentioned that the Dominant must control his punches. The Dominant is responsible.

If there are two people engaged in a punching, kicking scene....why is only the Dominant responsible for the control and force? Do people presume that women can not inflict substantial injury if they are not in control?

Just asking.....

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~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 12:09:53 PM   
daddysprop247


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I've noticed that quite a few people have mentioned that the Dominant must control his punches. The Dominant is responsible.

If there are two people engaged in a punching, kicking scene....why is only the Dominant responsible for the control and force? Do people presume that women can not inflict substantial injury if they are not in control?

Just asking.....



well, before 1 or 2 comments in this thread, i had never before heard of a Dominant being punched or kicked by his submissive or slave. i think that the more likely scenario is that the Dominant (whether male or female) is the one beating the submissive, therefore many are placing emphasis on the importance of the Dominant being able to control their punches.

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 12:28:13 PM   
queencaliph


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Hi Mistoferin, I have followed this thread but as yet, have not contributed.  Most of these posts have been in regards to maledom/femsub. I wonder if there is as much of a problem with punch play between femdom/malesub?  I am a dominant female and have punched malesubs before (by their own requests). I never thought of it as abusive when I did it. 

Hard for me to admit, but I am hypocritical in this area.  I don't have a problem punching a man but could not stand to watch maledom hit a femsub. Its probably less violent than a lot of play that I have seen (and DONE) and as long as it is CONSENSUAL I will defend to the death the rights of two consenting adults to engage in this type of play.  I know, I know. Its hypocritical, but I can't help wonder if this is the problem most others have with it also; the "gender thing" more so than it just being labled as "abusive."

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 12:31:07 PM   
mistoferin


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There have been many, many threads on these boards about force play, resistance play, primal play. I guess I'm surprised that so many people seem as though this is something unheard of. What did everyone think those types of play entailed?

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Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 12:56:48 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

I've noticed that quite a few people have mentioned that the Dominant must control his punches. The Dominant is responsible.

If there are two people engaged in a punching, kicking scene....why is only the Dominant responsible for the control and force? Do people presume that women can not inflict substantial injury if they are not in control?

Just asking.....

/nods

I have noticed that too  Heck...I was expected to hit back...he would have thought less of me if I had not...what's more, I was expected to fight back with everything I had in me...he did not hold back...why should I lol?

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 3:02:07 PM   
Archer


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The thing is not all punching or kicking play involves resistance. I have done punching and kicking both in resistance and not in resistance.
I would recomend that someone new to it start with non resistance punch/kick play and then later as skill improves then if they care to, move on to resistance play involving punches and kicks.

Moving targets take more skill to hit than stationary ones, and resistance/movement increases risk of injury.




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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 3:14:15 PM   
mistoferin


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Well you're right. But not all of it doesn't and I would suggest that there is responsibility on the shoulders of both parties.

Maybe my experience with it is a bit different as it has always been a part of my life, but I would like for people to know that there is a lot more to be gained from such activity then just a bunch of bruises. I can not begin to tell you the things that I have learned about myself and the growth that I have experienced as a result of such. There are great rewards to be had.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 3:18:57 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Well you're right. But not all of it doesn't and I would suggest that there is responsibility on the shoulders of both parties.

Maybe my experience with it is a bit different as it has always been a part of my life, but I would like for people to know that there is a lot more to be gained from such activity then just a bunch of bruises. I can not begin to tell you the things that I have learned about myself and the growth that I have experienced as a result of such. There are great rewards to be had.

Erin..thank you for saying this once again. I can not agree more. I learned a great deal from my experiences with my late husband; and what I learned, I still apply even to this day.( and I am not referring to the fact that I learned how to love pain and turn it into something erotic, sensual and sexual ...I am talking about how to control myself when in a rage )

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 3:42:35 PM   
PAcpllooking


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Faramir

Finally, Finally someone else who really gets it.
Well said...........very well said

William

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/7/2007 3:57:45 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
What did everyone think those types of play entailed?


Pillow Fights?

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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