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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 7:16:19 AM

MySweetSubmssive

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This is a great thread in the way it stirs the pot for me (rather than giving answers). I'm still figuring out the answers for myself on "how much submission" I want from someone. I like intellectual rigor and ethics -- a man who can say no in the right circumstances. I like someone who will stand up for what they believe. If a submissive chose to *not* say what he was thinking in these two circumstances -- i.e. being too submissive -- I would consider this to be a loss. I would think less of him. Recently, I was talking to a submissive man who describes himself as a doormat. I mentioned that I was going to read the Harry Potter book online before it came out. He said, in no uncertain terms, that I shouldn't do that because we should value the work of artists (his concern was that I would read it online and not purchase the book). I was very happy with the response from this "doormat" submissive.

I've talked to submissives about being a "stay at home" submissve, and the jury is still out on that one. Within 5 years, I * could* support two people and a family, and there are advantages to having one full-time parent with small children. But ... would he seem less masculine to me? Would submission be gratuitious if he were in a less powerful position? Would the (erotic) tension be gone? Would I lose the sense of being cared for? (something that, dominant or not, I enjoy)

My post is rambly, but it's because I am still processing this for myself.

MSS

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 9:12:14 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

This is a great thread in the way it stirs the pot for me (rather than giving answers). I'm still figuring out the answers for myself on "how much submission" I want from someone. I like intellectual rigor and ethics -- a man who can say no in the right circumstances. I like someone who will stand up for what they believe. If a submissive chose to *not* say what he was thinking in these two circumstances -- i.e. being too submissive -- I would consider this to be a loss. I would think less of him. Recently, I was talking to a submissive man who describes himself as a doormat. I mentioned that I was going to read the Harry Potter book online before it came out. He said, in no uncertain terms, that I shouldn't do that because we should value the work of artists (his concern was that I would read it online and not purchase the book). I was very happy with the response from this "doormat" submissive.

I've talked to submissives about being a "stay at home" submissve, and the jury is still out on that one. Within 5 years, I * could* support two people and a family, and there are advantages to having one full-time parent with small children. But ... would he seem less masculine to me? Would submission be gratuitious if he were in a less powerful position? Would the (erotic) tension be gone? Would I lose the sense of being cared for? (something that, dominant or not, I enjoy)

My post is rambly, but it's because I am still processing this for myself.

MSS

These are all good questions. I think the answers can be found in looking at your submissive partners and getting a sense of how their submission ties into their self worth and esteem. I have never been attracted to a man who is at all weak or groveling (except when broken down to that, which is a long process, and temporary).

When submissive men think of the male wife often they tie into it a lot of gender stereotypes or fantasies, and that can muddy the water a little. I don't want a male *sissy* wife, nor do I want a man that must be in femme to get the shit done he needs to do. Nor should any of these things impact his ability to get his stuff done. I think it's almost better to look at it as if interviewing for a job position. What kind of "life assistant" would be ideal? He'd be hardworking, a self starter, efficient, intuitive, and not get in the way.

As for masculinity, that's a tough one. I am with you though - it's extremely important for my man to remain masculine. There is nothing emasculating about being a male wife - unless the man wants that, and imposes that on himself. None of my peers see him as weak, none of his guy friends see him as "pussy whipped" - they see a strong househole led by a career minded woman who needs a full time assistant and a domestically responsible man.

It helps that he is masculine, there's no doubt about it. He's an athlete and has a lot of physical hobbies, and allowing and encouraing him to continue these hobbies - mountain biking, cycling, hockey, running -- allows him to remain in shape and as masculine as I need him. And as he wants to be.

So many submissives tell me they want to trade positions with him in a heartbeat, but truly, if they saw "a day in the life" they would match it against their erotic fantasies and be sorely disappointed. There is nothing remotely sexually charged about his duties, because frankly, he's frigging busy. The benefit to having a full time stay at home husband, while I work at home, is that yes, I can have raunchy, nasty, power-exchange fueled sex at the drop of the hat; but he's not wearing an apron and cleaning with a butt plug in his ass, nor is he walking around with his dick in his hand. For many subs, the "male wife" fuels a sexual fantasy. I find that with MOST men, sexuality has no place in the workforce, because it's a distraction. For this purpose, my "male wife" has a job to do, and while we may have sexually charged days, it's not different than we would have if he was going to an office every day and I was calling him up to get a rise out of him.

Akasha

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(in reply to MySweetSubmssive)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 10:15:27 AM

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A question if i may. Where does the line fall between a male who is assertive enough to meet Your requirements for a reasonable assertive submissive, as against a submissive who is so assertive that he becomes too much hard work ?

Is there a cut off point You use ? and if so how is the submissive expected to know it ?
Or is this a process You agree on during his training ?

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 10:27:13 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A question if i may. Where does the line fall between a male who is assertive enough to meet Your requirements for a reasonable assertive submissive, as against a submissive who is so assertive that he becomes too much hard work ?

Is there a cut off point You use ? and if so how is the submissive expected to know it ?
Or is this a process You agree on during his training ?

Nothing about being assertive creates more work for me. Don't confuse being assertive with being an asshole or being stubborn. Assertive to me means he gets stuff done, he voices his opinion, he asks intelligent questions, he disagrees (without being an asshole) if he feels he needs to, he is not a "yes man" just for the sake of kissing ass. None of these things would ever create more work for me.

Akasha

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 10:30:30 AM

michaelOfGeorgia

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quote:

Are subs not enough of a challenge?

i think i may be too much of a challenge, what, with having no offline experience and not much luck finding a "brave" Mistress locally to train me

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 10:37:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

quote:

Are subs not enough of a challenge?

i think i may be too much of a challenge, what, with having no offline experience and not much luck finding a "brave" Mistress locally to train me

For clarification, this is the definition of "challenge" I was thinking when I started this thread:

"difficulty in a job or undertaking that is stimulating to one engaged in it."

It might not even be the best word, because I think "difficult" insinuates frustration. I mean pleasurable difficulty.

Akasha

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 10:39:19 AM

michaelOfGeorgia

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alrighty then

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 10:48:03 AM

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Ma`am AAkasha, thank You for the clarification, i can certainly see the difference between being assertive and being stubborn.

If i may offer a phrase to describe what You mean. I think You mean a constructive challenge as against a destructive challenge. Someone who stimulates You as a Dominant and makes You think about Your next move ? Rather than someone where You just have to go through the motions.

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 10:54:53 AM

michaelOfGeorgia

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and who said i was into "just going through the motions"? i take my submissiveness very seriously and i did not mean anything of disrespect, or of a deconstructive mature. while there's alot of "Mistresses" on this site, i have yet to have one "follow through" when it comes to meetings or whatnot. in the past, i have had a few "Mistresses" offer, claim or otherwise lead up to offline meetings, only to vanish or do a "no show/no call". so you can all imagine my frustration. and, since i was born in Missouri and grew up there, i'm a firm believer in it's Motto "Show Me". so far...nobody has stepped up to "Show Me" anything but words.

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 11:09:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

I don't know about challenge persay. I find that as times goes on I tend to gravitate towards two different types of women. Those that either are, or very nearly, switch. And those that identify as slaves, wanting to give everything over, yet have a very strong personality outside of that facet of themselves.

The first (in the women that I have known )have tended to have a very clearly defined submission within them, almost a slavelike tendency, just needing to find the one person that they can feel compelled to offer that part of themself to. They are very sure of that part of themself and what it is to them.

Either way they must be able to think and converse......challenge me with ideas and new goals.

The type that I tend to lose interest in more often define as submissive but have been more kink oriented, what they want me to do to/for them. Less so about anything I want or any real power structure.

I am moreso interested in a balance of both person's needs, all within a Ms relationship.

Then there are those that identify as slaves but are, in my opinion, bottoms. "I want to belong to you so that you will keep me locked up, beat me, torture me, use me, dressed in ....(my favourite fetish wear).... all according to my kinks, fetishes, desires. BUT, I don't do dishes, work, or basically give a shit about you, or what you want".

ok, this is SO off topic....but I just had to say that I love your hair! you look like one of those classic movies stars...you know when they were glamerous and sophisticated.....not like the lohan crowd of today....lol

beautiful

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 11:13:16 AM

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Now to comment on the actual topic...lol

When I do have someone collared I find it a total challenge on a daily basis...trying to keep up with his limits and know when the time is right to push...keeping things new and creative so that there is no boredom....just knowing that buttons to push and finding new ones that he didn't even know he had.

I don't think it matters if some gives themselves to someone....it's a constant challenge to teach, mold and keep it new

with me any way...lol

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 12:57:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelOfGeorgia

and who said i was into "just going through the motions"? i take my submissiveness very seriously and i did not mean anything of disrespect, or of a deconstructive mature. while there's alot of "Mistresses" on this site, i have yet to have one "follow through" when it comes to meetings or whatnot. in the past, i have had a few "Mistresses" offer, claim or otherwise lead up to offline meetings, only to vanish or do a "no show/no call". so you can all imagine my frustration. and, since i was born in Missouri and grew up there, i'm a firm believer in it's Motto "Show Me". so far...nobody has stepped up to "Show Me" anything but words.

Michael, if you read my post properly, you would have seen i didnt address it to you, not unless you have changed names.

i was speaking to Ma`am AAkasha. you really should read a post properly before getting so defensive, not just read the name generated by using the fast reply.

(in reply to michaelOfGeorgia)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 7/30/2007 1:43:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: interestingtimes

Laughs alot, you must be my twin...

Only if you look identical to me, and as my sig indicates, my posting picture looks JUST LIKE me.

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/1/2007 9:57:22 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes
Just a note, Pixel ... normally when I see someone using those words on these boards, it's an excuse to be a rude little prig - not simply because they aren't bowing and scraping to everyone. I have no problem with someone saying "well, I'm not your submissive" to someone demanding submission at random, but when someone says it as an excuse to be rude and obnoxious, I'm always going to react negatively.

The same point was raised in the thread that claimed that submissive men have a greater tendency to be jerks than do other people. I think this point would be easier to grasp if there are examples (examples of what might have occurred in prior posts, or a fictitious example that conveys the point).

If I asked someone to show deference to me, then I can see such a retort (that that person is not submissive to me). If I objected to rude behavior, it is not clear to me how one could get away with such a retort. If somebody retorted in that manner, I would simply clarify that I am not asking for submission or show of deference but that the behavior is offensive with an explanation of why it is offensive. So I am having trouble seeing how one uses these words as an excuse to be rude. What I say does not mean this behavior has not or does not occur. Still, I am having trouble picturing the scenario.

Cheers,

Sea

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RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 2:47:30 AM

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Please excuse me for straying off topic slightly.

Sea, i think the answer to your question about the phrase " i may be submissive but im not YOUR submissive " being disrespectful, lies within the context of the conversation.

If a Dominant says to me " Dont post anymore " Or " Send me some nude photos " Then to point out i am not their submissive is quite in order.

However, if a Dominant politely, and i stress politely, says something like "I think You over stepped the mark and owe Me ( or X ) an appology" then to point out i am not "YOUR" submissive comes across as a sneer, reading more like " Shut up i dont care what You say"

Like anything else here though, words get read differently by different people, more so if there is past history of such.

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 6:56:33 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
However, if a Dominant politely, and i stress politely, says something like "I think You over stepped the mark and owe Me ( or X ) an appology" then to point out i am not "YOUR" submissive comes across as a sneer, reading more like " Shut up i dont care what You say"

Like anything else here though, words get read differently by different people, more so if there is past history of such.

Politesub, thanks for your post. I agree with your first example. And I agree about the comment that words get read differently and past history can further affect how they are read.

I see the second example but still do not fully connect with it. I think those words--I am not your submissive (IANYS)--would apply only if submission was being demanded by (1) a demand for an apology in a manner that suggests different levels of status (talking down) or (2) if the basis of calling the behavior inappropriate is based on a suggestion of different levels of status. I think your point about how words get read differently applies here. The objection to offensive behavior may be miscontrued by the sub in question as an act of dominance, which in turn would create further miscommunication.

If the behavior is rude by conventional standards (and does not rely on an assumption of different statuses), I think IANYS would not apply and it would be easy enough to clarify the same. One could respond and say that one is not asking for submission but basic respect--this response would work only if one is indeed asking for basic respect and not respect based on an assumed higher level of status. If we take the same exchange between a domme and a sub with the dialogs swapped and if the objection to said behavior (this time from a sub to a domme) is just as fair then it is indeed based on basic social respect and not an assumed imbalance in status.

To be practical, the respect in the forums is voluntary and not institutionalized. And for some acts, different people may respond differently about whether or not it is offensive. I think a more practical and graceful approach is to not demand an apology but to say that one is offended by the behavior, or that it crosses a personal boundary. I can best control my own behavior and if I behave gracefully while another does not, it is there for all to see.

Cheers,

Sea

< Message edited by undergroundsea -- 8/2/2007 7:06:21 AM >

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 7:16:19 AM

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You maybe on to something here AAkasha. I have always been attracted to the bad boy image type. I love my slave, and he is wonderful; however, at the same time, he is so nice. Sometimes, we enjoy the chase.

Regards,

MissSCD

(in reply to AAkasha)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 7:20:08 AM

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My husband is an example of someone who doesn't outwardly rebel, and is feminine in attitude and demeanor. The relationship we have is more analagous to a lot of Daddy/girl relationships than it is to Mistress/slave. It would probably drive a lot of femdoms out of their minds because there is a lot of back-patting, bolstering, reassurance, one step forward two steps back to the process of surrender. Masculine assertiveness, in my experience, is MORE likely to foster a dramatic and simple shift into "ok I'm in slave space now".

My husband isn't a pussy or a doormat either - he'll put his foot down if something doesn't sit well with him quite comfortably - and usually will warm to whatever it is I wanted within a short while, but has a very different way of assimilating my control and my desires than most msubs I've worked with.

So, no, submissive guys, especially really pretty femmy ones, aren't less of a challenge. I kind of resent the masculine=attractive feminine=pussywhipped and lame implication as someone actually attracted to male and female androgyny and genderfuck.

My slave pretty much threw himself at me, in contrast to a very stressful and demanding existence as a senior level programmer. There are challenges there as well - how far can we go? What new stuff can we do? How to humiliate someone who's shameless for you? It's actually an insane amount of FUN - something that gets short shrift in heady SM philosophizing discussions.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 8/2/2007 7:25:33 AM >

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 7:25:52 AM

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Hi Sea... i agree with your thinking and my example regarding an apology was only a general idea. The closest i can give to hearin the phrase used was once when i was in a chat room. A submissive entered and started being rude to everyone. The room owner said " Would you mind being polite to people while you are here " Which i thought was a reasonable request, just to get the reply IANYS.... That still may not be what you are looking for as an exampe, but its my best shot

(in reply to undergroundsea)

RE: Are subs not enough of a challenge? - 8/2/2007 7:27:01 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

A question if i may. Where does the line fall between a male who is assertive enough to meet Your requirements for a reasonable assertive submissive, as against a submissive who is so assertive that he becomes too much hard work ?

Is there a cut off point You use ? and if so how is the submissive expected to know it ?
Or is this a process You agree on during his training ?

Do you mind if I toss in my two dollars on this issue?

I want a slave who is valuable and part of his value is his being able to function well in the world around us. If he has a job he needs to be able to feel good about it and to have the respect of those he works with and for usually this means being a go-getter which is another way of saying being properly or correctly assertive.

In my private life it means having a slave who serves without needing to be ordered or scheduled to do so it. That also can be his assertiveness over the environment (knowing when to mow or clean) as well as his assertiveness toward comforting me (seeing that I've had a crappy day and offering me water, chocolate or a back rub or even a flogger).

Before that a sub can be assertive in how he interacts with me by showing similar motivation to do those things that are part of how I evaluate a potential. It can be as simple as doing what I require -- a formal application, responding to my questions -- or it can go beyond that and really impress me by asking questions or expanding on the ideas in the application in a tasteful way. All of that could be seen as being assertive and active in the process because he's putting himself out there to prove his worth.

By the way I'd expect the same from a women wishing to join my household. I try very hard not to be sexist in these regards.

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(in reply to Politesub53)

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