RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls.

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RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls.

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls.

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RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 9:30:51 AM

licia71

Posts: 19
Joined: 2/6/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati
what I meant was, if you knew that being the local slut wasnt one of your girls best assests, would you still ask her to be it?

I see what you meant now, though I can't answer.

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 61

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 9:47:02 AM

dawntreader

Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

Im not asking about me in particular, because I know for other reasons I dont fit into either category, but I began to wonder if maybe that doesnt have something to do with the seperation of slave and free woman? The girls who like me were compleatly open with falling all over every male in the bar, and even a few of the other females..who didnt care what others thought because to us it was natural to let ourselves be that way, compared to the women in the bar more content to sit by their mans side and join in his conversations, who were much more reserved in the way they treated the other men in the group.

ghita~

Greetings ghita,
How truly wonderful that you can finally be comfortable with who you are and disgard society's standards of what we should or should not be. What a dichotomy you present with your premise...the woman who feels total freedom to be true to what she is, is the woman who choses the chains of ownership. When the equation is presented in this manner, it makes me wonder what side i would be on. Thanks for giving me something to ponder this morning~
j

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 62

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 9:54:23 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati
I think I mis-used the word willing.....Of course we'd all be willing to do whatever our masters ordered of us, whether we enjoyed it or not...I should have meant enjoyed it maybe, or eager? Im still not sure im getting the word to describe what I really meant though...

On what level are you discussing enjoyment? From what I know of gorean slaves, they feel it is simply part of their inner being to obey as a gorean slave. Exactly HOW that obedience is expressed is really not that important at all except that it be found pleasing and in the proper way that a gorean slave does things.

Again, this is also true of most M/s slaves.

quote:

what I meant was, if you knew that being the local slut wasnt one of your girls best assests, would you still ask her to be it?

I think it depends on the romantic notions of "relationship" a gorean master may want to hold to.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 63

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 10:04:15 AM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

Ok, we all agee a Master could
But why would a Master order a girl to serve who wasnt willing? Ok, Earlier in the thread, Leonidas was talking about using a girl's best assests. If the Master knows the girl isnt happy and willing to serve and please sexually, she probably inst going to please who ever she was told to serve. Isnt that something like above where the men were talking about knowing a girls talents? And Leonidas said above that not all women have that heat. So, I would assume, that any women who did have it, would happily serve whomever she was told to, and probably please quite well...bringing in either money or just thanks for her Master. A Master is only going to send out a girl whom he knows is going to bring in the most profit (whether thats money or something else like happy friends, its still a profit)

At first blush, the reason a girl isn't willing to obey or follow an instruction isn't always the reason she gives. We've seen some knee jerk reactions on this thread; slaves do the same thing, without taking the time to understand 'why.' Sometimes, the way to show a girl that her refusal is based on an issue she isn't aware of, is to simply toss her into it. She trusts me not to break her (or be responsible if I do.) I have to trust myself, that if I think she should do something she isn't...erm... enthusiastic about, it's because I think it's best for both of us.

The point, then, becomes a question of if his judgement is good or not. We can certainly hope, that the slave is assured that judgement is good beforehand. Obviously, this is not always the case.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 64

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 10:12:00 AM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Greetings Stephan,

How very well said indeed. Keep posting around here, I enjoy reading your thoughts.

Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati

Ok, we all agee a Master could
But why would a Master order a girl to serve who wasnt willing? Ok, Earlier in the thread, Leonidas was talking about using a girl's best assests. If the Master knows the girl isnt happy and willing to serve and please sexually, she probably inst going to please who ever she was told to serve. Isnt that something like above where the men were talking about knowing a girls talents? And Leonidas said above that not all women have that heat. So, I would assume, that any women who did have it, would happily serve whomever she was told to, and probably please quite well...bringing in either money or just thanks for her Master. A Master is only going to send out a girl whom he knows is going to bring in the most profit (whether thats money or something else like happy friends, its still a profit)

At first blush, the reason a girl isn't willing to obey or follow an instruction isn't always the reason she gives. We've seen some knee jerk reactions on this thread; slaves do the same thing, without taking the time to understand 'why.' Sometimes, the way to show a girl that her refusal is based on an issue she isn't aware of, is to simply toss her into it. She trusts me not to break her (or be responsible if I do.) I have to trust myself, that if I think she should do something she isn't...erm... enthusiastic about, it's because I think it's best for both of us.

The point, then, becomes a question of if his judgement is good or not. We can certainly hope, that the slave is assured that judgement is good beforehand. Obviously, this is not always the case.

Stephan

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 65

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 10:12:10 AM

tsatske

Posts: 1753
Joined: 3/9/2007
From: Louisville, KY
Status: offline

I apologize for answering, as a non-Gorean. But Stephann's comments about trusting Master's judgment brought clauses from my last contract to mind. It specifically said that every decision was, in the final analysis, Master's to make as he saw fit. My contracted stated, 'It is not that Master is incapable of making a mistake in judgment, but, rather, as we are both equally capable of making such a mistake, we have made the decision, in this relationship, to follow his judgment in all things.'

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 66

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 10:18:57 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 37373
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

While contractural slavery won't get much play with the shit-house lawyers amongst us, IF there is a contract, it is simply this.

You agree as slave to my ownership and dominion.
I agree to own you and be the final adjudication.
It works out one of two ways, if, in the longrun and overall, I make better decisions for the most part, and few horrid decisions you will stay.
If I really fuck it up, you go.

It isn't your father's slavery (oh, god, often I wish it was)
I cannot mount an expidition to clap you in chains from off the street, nor buy nor sell your flesh, with impunity in any real sense.

Hup the Fool

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 8/6/2007 10:21:41 AM >

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK

(in reply to tsatske)

Post #: 67

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 10:24:16 AM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amiciaN

(using fast reply)

I don't really have much of an answer regarding Masters using their slaves, but I would like to comment a bit on strippers. I have a niece who is a very talented Middle Eastern dancer... who lives in central Indiana. As one can imagine, there is not much work for even the most talented of this type of dancers, so she makes her living as a stripper, as it does allow her to dance which is her life's calling. She has been dancing since she was literally able to stand. I recall when she was trying to learn to shimmy. She was copying my sister (who was learning to dance then and is a damn fine dancer and instructor in her own right), while holding onto the side of her playpen. She got her first veil when she was around 2. Dancing was and still is what she loves. Indiana is also one of those places where stripper = prostitute in most people's minds. Frankly, it pisses me off to no end.

My niece is NOT a prostitute. She IS a devoted mother and was one of her daughter's 'class moms', who baked cupcakes and cookies, helped decorate the class room for parties and even picked up one of her daughter's classmate's for a week when his mom was recuperating from surgery. She is there all day for her children, something most mothers in this day and age do not have the luxury of doing. She works 4 nights a week, 3 weeks a month, and is able to pay all her bills, with a bit left over to provide some of the 'nicer' things for her kids. She also works out of town so there is little chance of random encounters with the clientele of the club, which would most likely embarrass the 'customer' much more than my niece who is rightfully not ashamed of what she does for a living. She works hard at her craft, which is dancing. I am not ashamed of her either. In fact, I'm quite proud of her, as this post might suggest.

Sorry, it ended up being more of rant than a comment, but this is a subject near and dear to my heart, as is my niece.

So prostitute can't be a devoted mother? A 'class mom'? Or help out a fellow mom when they need help? I bet if your sister started working as a self-employed prostitute she'd have even more time for her kids AND more money to spend on them.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to amiciaN)

Post #: 68

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 11:27:40 AM

amiciaN

Posts: 228
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrDiscipline44

So prostitute can't be a devoted mother? A 'class mom'? Or help out a fellow mom when they need help? I bet if your sister started working as a self-employed prostitute she'd have even more time for her kids AND more money to spend on them.

I did not mean that at all. I am sure that there are many prostitutes who do all of those things as well and I personally do not hold any animosity towards women who choose this profession. However, the fact remains that the little corner of the world I reside in is part of the infamous "Bible Belt" and I doubt that a woman who openly states prostitution as her profession would be allowed to be 'class mom' by the local parent/teacher group or by the school board. It has raised a few eyebrows that my niece (not my sister) is 'allowed' to do so, but they were squelched by the fact that 'erotic dancing' (as it is called in polite circles locally) is a legal job. Most strippers here simply say they work in a bar, without saying that they even work at a 'gentleman's club', let alone that they are one of the dancers. My niece does not hide what she does at all, which for where we live takes a pretty strong ego and a fair bit of courage. As for your claim that prostitution would give her even more money and time, that is hard to say. The risk of jail-time and the certainty of losing her children over a conviction eliminates it as a truly viable option here in the cornfields.

_____________________________

NChaka's amicia

I have never been lifted so high as when I kneel at His feet.

(in reply to MrDiscipline44)

Post #: 69

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 1:06:37 PM

MrDiscipline44

Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline

Ah yes, good point.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to amiciaN)

Post #: 70

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 4:26:03 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Ironically, I believe the legal stigma goes a long ways towards maintaining this relationship.

~nod~

This point was raised by the various prostitutes' unions around here when the gov't first started their muttering about outlawing the purchase of sexual services next year. Those who are actually in the business, on the selling end, are pretty adamant that this is going to drive off the "nice" customers and increase competition, as well as making it a lot less attractive to work without a pimp.

quote:

A slut becomes the scapegoat; she represents everything that a woman should not be, and it's a simple task to simply point at a woman and say "She's a slut!"

It was pointed out elsewhere that this is an area where men are just mimicking women, which makes sense from the POV of evolutionary psychology, as men stand to gain from sluts, while women stand to lose. This was also covered in the so-called "Slut Manifesto", where it is pointed out that "the pussy has become a commodity", which is traded for material benefits through courtship rituals; when the slut comes along, she gives it away for free, which lowers the value of other vaginae. Women, tending to prefer social violence to physical violence, then turn society against the sluts in order to preserve their own benefits.

It's like when you have a free market economy, but still employ protectionism to preserve the profitability of inferior businesses by driving out superior businesses that compete using lobbying, with the closest parallel being national pride based marketing (e.g. "Made in WhereYouLive") and regulations against offshoring. For instance, in the USA, import taxes on sugar makes corn syrup attractive, despite being an inferior product in every way.

In the same way, female protectionism drives sluts from the market, leaving men with an inferior "product" that they've been indoctrinated to value, and leaving the sluts stigmatized by both genders. Kind of like daddysprop's comment that someone told her she was "for fucking, not for dating", as if she wasn't good enough. No doubt the men had a better time with her than with those who were "for dating" in their eyes.

Just shows how far you can push perception out of line with reality, given a concerted effort.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 71

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 4:42:41 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

Damn, Aswad, that was brilliant. I have some reading to do, it seems.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 72

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/6/2007 9:05:14 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Thank you, Stephan.

As for reading, I posted a link to the Slut Manifesto in the other prostitution thread.
Repeating it here for your convenience.

Best wishes,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 73

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/8/2007 12:51:53 PM

captainblack

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Well you really wouldn't want a race horse to pull a plow unless absolutely needed, now would you.

Orion

So you're saying most gorean girls are bad when it comes to sexual pleasure and thus really shouldn't be forced into that sort of domain where they will be very useless?

I shall have more to say after I read the rest of the posts, but I can comment on this post now.

In my younger days I knew intimately 3 $200/hr call girls. This was about 20 years ago, so that was
real good money. All three of these girls were had bodies that would have put them into penthouse,
or playboy if they chose. While I never had sex with any of them I did come to learn they must
have been very good at it from just little things around the house or at parties where they would try
and convince me to spend some time between the sheets with them (not for $$....hell I could not have afforded them!). I also about 15 years ago had 2 call girls as clients for my services and they too
were in the couple of hundred dollars an hour price range. They too could have been centerfolds. I would say that most kajira owned by men here do not qualify as centerfold models, and would therefore not bring much if anything no matter how well skilled they are.

While there are men such as myself that find beauty in women of many sizes and shapes most men
I know find the "centerfold body" to be what they call beauty. So why would I send a girl out to turn
say $25 blowjobs on the corner with the various risks that involves when she could do better for
me doing something else that would make more $$. In the world of sex for money a chubby girl,
or a plain girl will be a bottom feeder and the risks to my property and by extension myself are
more than what I would take. So I do not think it is that kajira lack sexual skills, but rather that
even with sexual skills the visuals are needed to get a price that makes it worthwhile.

albatross your looks, from what I can tell, are such that it might be worthwhile for your owner to take the other risks involved with sex for money and that might be a good use for you. As others here
have already pointed out........Why hitch a race horse to a plough... or put another way why waste time
and effort putting a Clydsdale in the Belmont Stakes?

CB

_____________________________

http://www.streetofbrands.com/

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 74

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/8/2007 1:10:33 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaptainBlack

Why hitch a race horse to a plough... or put another way why waste time and effort putting a Clydsdale in the Belmont Stakes?

Greetings CB,

Thank you for finally asking the question I'd been waiting for.

Because, frankly, in the right context it can be good for her, for the same reason a paralegal might benefit from viewing a courtroom or a nursing student who observes surgery. Diversifying a 'slut's' experience, when done in a constructive manner, would make her more likely to perform her duties better for me. So far, I've yet to see a woman offer her opinion on the subject stating that she was expected to serve other men, and felt damaged, harmed, or affected negatively. Indeed, it seems most women who have been put in this position seem to enjoy the experience and grow from it. I won't say it's right for every woman, of course.

Something that I think has been misconstrued in this thread, is that the sole reason a man might require his slave to perform as either a stripper or an 'escort' is full time, for strictly financial reasons. Not every job we do is strictly for dead presidents. Interns work miserable hours for terrible pay; just for the experience they acquire. This sums up how I, personally, view this topic.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 8/8/2007 1:12:45 PM >

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to captainblack)

Post #: 75

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/8/2007 1:29:20 PM

BeingChewsie

Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

Thank you Aswad it was a very interesting read!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Thank you, Stephan.

As for reading, I posted a link to the Slut Manifesto in the other prostitution thread.
Repeating it here for your convenience.

Best wishes,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 76

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/8/2007 2:35:04 PM

captainblack

Posts: 137
Joined: 8/26/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: GhitaAmati
But why would a Master order a girl to serve who wasnt willing?

There are owned gorean slaves who are not willing to obey?

I had one that would not always obey.....after much attempt at correction I turned her lose. Rumor has it that she was picked up as a stray and has learned her lesson. Only her current owner could answer for sure though if she obeys without struggle or complaint.

CB

_____________________________

http://www.streetofbrands.com/

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 77

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/8/2007 3:04:10 PM

Jonandelle

Posts: 37
Joined: 3/24/2004
Status: offline

Greetings Master Stephann,
I worked as a stripper for over five years and only recently cleaned out my locker at my last club. Master had no problem sending me off to entertain men in that capacity. I am quite good at it. It was definately a good use of my skills to earn money while I was at school finishing my Bachelor's degree. Now that I have the degree my other skills are being put to use. I also learned a great deal about entertaining men during my time in the clubs and became more valuable to him, a more skilled woman.
I was often asked by customers if Master was bothered by me sitting there, mostly naked in their laps, cuddling and turning them on. The truthful answer was no, it didn't bother him. I think perhaps there were times when he thoroughly enjoyed sending me off to the club - it gave him some peace and quiet!
elle{J}
property of Jonrhus

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 78

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/8/2007 3:09:33 PM

ameenah

Posts: 164
Joined: 11/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Diversifying a 'slut's' experience, when done in a constructive manner, would make her more likely to perform her duties better for me. Stephan

Master,
ameenah feels bad for the Master who lacks the ability to train His slut to be pleasing to Him himself. If He truly needs other Men to train His slut to be more sexually responsive, what does that say about Him.... hmmmm...

Respectfully,
ameenah

(in reply to Stephann)

Post #: 79

RE: Strippers, Prostitutes, and Coin Girls. - 8/8/2007 3:28:09 PM

Stephann

Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline

slave,

It says he trains his slut in whatever manner he wishes. I would suspect your owner has trained you to voice your opinions in a less derogatory manner. Does this mean you have nothing to learn from this particular lesson then, since it isn't coming from his hand?

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to ameenah)

Post #: 80

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