How are you a sovereign? (Full Version)

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Trevelyan -> How are you a sovereign? (8/7/2007 5:21:25 PM)

"In peasant villages on this world each hut was originally built around a flat stone which was placed in the center of the circular dwelling. It was carved with the family sign and was called the Home Stone. It was, so to speak, a symbol of sovereignty, or territory, and each peasant, in his own hut, was a sovereign."
Tarnsman

Tal Goreans

Home Stone is the first (and in my opinion the most important) aspect of Gorean culture discussed in the books. 

What does being a sovereign in your own home mean to you? 

Please give real life examples of your thoughts and/or behavior as a sovereign, contrasted against how you might think/behave if you were not a sovereign.

I would appreciate comments from Gorean Free Men and Women (both companioned and un-companioned) about themselves or their companion as a sovereign, and from slaves about their owners as a sovereign.

I wish you all well,

Trevelyan




Trevelyan -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/7/2007 5:56:12 PM)

The quote is from Chapter 2 of Tarnsman of Gor.  Different editions have it starting on different pages.




OrionTheWolf -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/7/2007 6:42:42 PM)

Tal Trevelyan,

I will give this more thought later. I have been thinking on this subject recently, but my thoughts have been between the two meanings (indivdiual and community Home Stone's).

Orion




Trevelyan -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/7/2007 6:54:56 PM)

Tal Orion,

Our thoughts run along the same lines.  After discussion of the individual sovereignty aspects of Home Stone, I am planning to start a thread with this quote: "Yet there is a hierarchy of Home Stones, one might say, and two soldiers who would cut one another down with their steel blades for an acre of fertile ground will fight side by side to the death for the Home Stone of their village or of the city within whose ambit their village lies” to explore how Goreans honor the Home Stone of their "city" here in real life on Earth.

I wish you well

Trevelyan




Anarrus -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/8/2007 11:50:44 AM)

Tal Trevelyan,

Good, practical and thought provoking questions.

What does being a sovereign in your own home mean to you? 

Simply put, a man's home is a place where no one fucks with him or his. It means I set the rules and the limits and the protocol with my home. It also means I enforce them and will do so swiftly and justly. I can be a gracious, friendly and accomodating host to others in my home. On the other hand I can also be the biggest prick imagineable should a guest decide to test me. As far as rules, limits and protocols go within my home, I prefer keeping it simple, so there aren't many. That said, I rely on the common sense and social skills of my guests, then fill in what few blanks there might be as needed.
As a practical example...everyone puts the lid down on the toilet seat after they use it...no, not cause I'm a girlyman...I don't want my black lab drinking from the toilet...period! Everyone entering my home learns this rule.

Should a Gorean and his slave be my guests, obviously her conduct is at his discretion and under his control. I'd take up any problems with him just as I would the parent of a mis-behaving child in my home.

Other than the above, I take great pride in my home. I keep it clean and orderly (no slave yet) and in good repair both inside and out. I pay the mortgage, taxes and utilities on time... a very practical thing to do unless I want to find myself out in the street eventually.

Please give real life examples of your thoughts and/or behavior as a sovereign, contrasted against how you might think/behave if you were not a sovereign.
 
I'm Gorean. It's hard for me to imagine thinking or behaving in any way other than as a sovereign, and with the responsibility the term implies to me, no matter where I am. That said, in the hiearchy of soveriegn affairs, home, another man's home, city, state, country, etc. I act accordingly and with the respect due that soveriegnty.

I wish you well,

Anarrus




NorthernGent -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/8/2007 12:01:45 PM)

I'm assuming the peasants were ruled by kings; they're not sovereign in my book. Sovereignty is the opportunity to realise your dreams and aspirations; if the ultimate goal of man is self-mastery, then being a subject is defeating the object.




Anarrus -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/8/2007 12:23:30 PM)

I think most Goreans understand the term soveriegnty and it's applicability to the concept of Home Stone within a Gorean ethos. But thank you for your thoughts anyway.

Be well

Anarrus




ameenah -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/8/2007 2:57:05 PM)

Greetings to the Free and property,

ameenah thinks that a Master is sovereign if He ultimately controls what happens in His household and takes responsibility and accountability for it.   This includes making the 'hard decisions' when they arise, even if others within the household disagree. 

Respectfully,
ameenah{O}




Stephann -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/8/2007 3:58:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I'm assuming the peasants were ruled by kings; they're not sovereign in my book. Sovereignty is the opportunity to realise your dreams and aspirations; if the ultimate goal of man is self-mastery, then being a subject is defeating the object.


Hi NG,

I don't think it's that simple.  Liberty to pursue dreams and aspirations come with a social responsibility and burden.  I dont' think anyone's dreams are to be street sweepers or garbage collectors or fast food cooks.  A hierarchy exists in every form of civilization.  Civilization is what permits specialization in employment.

To boot, social standing isn't simply derived from genetics, but also from cultural origins.  Someone born into a poor black family in the US has the opportunity to become a doctor, sure; but that opporunity will not be nearly the equal of a child born to a rich white family.  Caste, as Goreans understand it, is simply a formalization of this social standing.

I figure, anyhow.

Stephan




IronBearofAr -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/8/2007 5:18:14 PM)

Tal and good day – Goreans.

quote:

Home Stone is the first (and in my opinion the most important) aspect of Gorean culture discussed in the books. 


[Iron`Bear stands – or would if I didn’t have to type this out –smiles slightly-]

Trevelyan: I am in agreement with you in this statement for the most part. Though the obvious gray area comes up that not all cultures in the Gor Series had Home Stones as we have come to know them. However – most still very much believed in the mystique of what a Home Stone represents for the vast majority. Before I get into discussing your question I think it would be appropriate to understand what I believe a Home Stone to be and the basic intrinsic meaning that I hold in regards to this.

A Home Stone quite ungenerously is a rock a stone of seemingly unimportance. My personal Home Stone is about half the size of my hand. It was a stone that I found while I was on a two week long hike here in the Gorge in Oregon. This was many years ago now – back when I was lighter in foot, and was on a quest to find my internal self. It doesn’t look like much – but to me it holds an astonishing amount of meaning.  

To some such a rock is simply a rock – but to others who can grasp its steadfast meaning it can become a Home Stone, and can come to encapsulate a deeper, more quintessential meaning if you fail to understand that then you cant belong to a Home Stone – truly belong and probably never will.  

The Home Stone… I do not feel that you select a Home Stone but to be more accurate a Home Stone selects you. A Home Stone defines who you are.  Some Goreans say; ‘I am Iron`Bear of Ar’ or more correctly I say ‘I am Iron`Bear of Taleon’ my families name. I say ‘of’ because my Home Stone is not just a rock it is a part of me. Those that also claim to also be a part of the same Home Stone, are also a part of my inner soul. That is because they also desire to be a part of something grander than themselves. My Home Stone shares the Four Keystones of Virtue - courage, integrity, strength, and wisdom with those who have held the same seemingly simple stone in their hands or those that live accordingly under it. A Home Stone has a common goal, all Home Stones do; it is one of the foundational reasons they were created - what is ours? I will leave you to answer that for yourself.

Many years ago now and man put to paper something that I am not able to say any better myself. His name was Jakil and he said: “To hold such a Home Stone in your hands, to swear allegiance to it; to look upon it, and with total conviction swear your loyalty, your love, and your life to all that it symbolizes, can be one of the finest, and most defining, moments in a man's life. Ask those who have done so. Yet they may in fact be unable to explain how it effected and changed them, for words are often not enough to express the meaning of such a seemingly simple action.”

These are the very basic tenets of what I believe the construct of a Home Stone to be. One can continue to delve deeper into it but I hope there is some understanding written here today. Within the comprehensiveness of the Home Stone I am a sovereign. It is my Home Stone it is what I have come to understand myself to be and encompasses everything that I am and that I believe in. From the most simple of ritualistic tasks such as waking up in the morning from sleep – to the most profound of acts – sharing my home with my Gorean Brethren.


The question was asked:
quote:

What does being a sovereign in your own home mean to you?


The unequivocal answer to this is – everything. But in order to understand what that unbelievably minute answer really means one needs to understand what being a Gorean man is in the first place. To feel within myself the utter and complete fulfillment of my place in this world that is embraced by the natural order of life itself and not by the culture and society that I live in. While I may agree with many of the ideals that our society and culture has presented it is still my authoritative choice to live my life in any fashion that I wish. In addition to that; I live under the banner of the Government that my land is a part of – if I did not agree to live under such a banner I would not do so. I would pick up my Home Stone and everything that goes a long with it and move elsewhere. Within my sovereignty I do not put on a false front of who and what I am to others nor do I practice the art of self deception as so many people are proficiently skilled at. Nevertheless I am constantly being introspective in regards to everything that is a part of my life along with who and what I am and from that meditative introspection determine if any changes are to be made or if my fulfillment is of the utmost satisfaction.

I am sovereign of my Home in that everything that happens here I am directly responsible for and take accountability in that. My home is what it is – and it is what I am even when no one is looking. There is such a great and empowering comfort in that. My home is laid out how I want it – it is designed and fashioned the way I want it. It has everything that I need or desire – if it does not then I have placed plans for the future to make that happen.

The quote that Trevelyan presented to us reads:
quote:

"In peasant villages on this world each hut was originally built around a flat stone which was placed in the center of the circular dwelling. It was carved with the family sign and was called the Home Stone. It was, so to speak, a symbol of sovereignty, or territory, and each peasant, in his own hut, was a sovereign."


But I would like to make an addition to the quoted section of Tarnsman. Directly after this quote it goes on to read thusly:
quote:

“Later,” said my father, “Home Stones were used for villages and later still for cities. The Home Stone of a village was always placed in the market; in a city, on the top of the highest tower. The Home Stone came naturally, in time, to acquire a mystique, and something of the same hot, sweet emotions as our native peoples of Earth feel towards their flags became invested in it.”


The main points that I wanted to make here are the two words that are used in this set of quotes. Those being - Sovereign and Mystique.

Sovereign: The meaning of the word sovereign that is used here can be described as: being above all others in character, importance, excellence, supremacy and so on.

Mystique: The meaning of this word within the construct of this section can be defined as:  a framework of doctrines, ideas, beliefs, or the like, constructed around a person or object, endowing the person or object with enhanced value or profound meaning.

Notice that it says “The Home Stone came naturally, in time, to acquire a mystique, and something of the same hot, sweet emotions as our native peoples of Earth feel towards their flags became invested in it.” To me this says that while the meaning of a Home Stone can be likened to that of our flags or banners that we live under it is only ‘something of the same’. It therefore is not the same but has come to take on a more quintessential mystique.

Within the gamut of my Home Stone there are different levels or strata that my home works under. That being clans, by birth or otherwise – brothers – friends – acquaintances. I will give you an example of what I mean by this. Last weekend, four men and their respective property came over for the weekend. Three of those men were what I consider my Gorean brothers. They are more than just friends and to me that simple word does not do them justice. Those three men brought their Home Stones with them and placed them next to mine. This physical and symbolic act gave them sovereignty in my home. Everything that I have here was theirs to do with as they willed and everything that they brought with them was mine. Words do not even begin to do it justice – I simply trust them entirely that much. The other man who came to visit, along with his free companion, were two people that while I have known them for several years I did not have a chance to meet them face to face yet. They were then friends of mine, and while visiting symbolically stayed under my Home Stone who I am sovereign of. They abided by the rules of my Home Stone. If it turned out that they were no longer someone that I wished to associate with for whatever reason – they would have been escorted out of my home. I would not have needed to call the police or some other governmental agency. This is my Home Stone – this is my sovereignty; I will be strong and do as I will within its confines.

An excellent topic – thank you for presenting it to the board here.

I bid you well.

Iron`Bear




Trevelyan -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (8/12/2007 10:54:21 AM)

Tal Goreans

"What does being a sovereign in your own home mean to you?"

To me being sovereign in my home means that I consider my home as my territory, an independent political entity in which I am the supreme ruler.  As sovereign, I must govern my home in excellence, so that it can survive and flourish.

"Please give real life examples of your thoughts and/or behavior as a sovereign, contrasted against how you might think/behave if you were not a sovereign."

I think the first contrast is simply in thinking of myself as a sovereign.  I left my parents home when I was 18, and married my wife when I was 22.  We recently celebrated our 28th anniversary.  I have been a warrior and more recently a merchant.  I have known what responsibility is, as a husband, father, company commander, and businessman.   I think that most people who know me would say I have done a good job meeting that responsibility.  But while I have considered myself responsible, I have not considered myself sovereign.  On many occasions, I have gone along with my wife's decision, because I viewed our relationship as one of equals.  I have never said to my boys "this is my house, and to live here you will..."  As a commander, I have "cut people slack" and failed to hold them accountable for missions I had assigned them, even though more excellent accomplishment of those missions would have meant more complete performance of our duty.  And as I businessman I have accepted less from myself and my associates than what I knew was possible.  A sovereign would consider the opinions of his wife, or children, or subordinates, or associates; but he would make the final decision of what was best, and not compromise just to be fair, or to get along.  A sovereign would set standards for those whom he rules, and insist they meet those standards.  A sovereign would accept nothing less that the very best from himself in any endeavor his chooses to pursue.

Many people in modern America do their best to evade responsiblity for themselves.  They are hungry for politicians to say to them "it's ok, everyone else should be responsible for what they have done to you, but you, little person, are not responsible for anything in your own life."  If they smoke, and get lung cancer, surely they are not responsible.  In fact, the evil tobacco companies should pay.  If they create a child that is inconvenient, they should be able to destroy it, but they lack the integrity to say "yes, I created this child, but it was inconvient, so I killed it."  Instead they sterilize their language, so that they can say that it was not a child, but something else, and that they did not kill it, but something else that makes them feel ok about themselves.  They expect others to protect them from all of lifes problems and from the results of their own folly.

A sovereign does not think or behave that way.  He sees life as a series of problems to be solved, and solves them, instead of whining that he is helpless.  He knows that his actions will have consequences, and he accepts those consequences when they come, rather than seeking desperately to shift the responsibility and evade the consequences.

One comment on my Home Stone.  In my youth, I was a passionate climber.  My Home Stone is a rock I picked up in the mountains somewhere.  In my memory, it is from the Dolomites of northern Italy, but is does not seem like the right kind of rock to have come from there.  I have had it, and carried it with me from home to home for more than 30 years.  When I moved into my current home 13 years ago, I put it, by chance, in almost the exact center of my property.  Since I began to study Gor a little over a year ago, I have a better understanding of why I picked it up, and carried it with me, and placed it where I did in my territory, many years ago.

I wish you well.

Trevelyan




OrionTheWolf -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (1/28/2010 6:39:15 PM)

This is a comment from another topic, but I feel it is best placed here:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nephilim

Seems to me that when the books say a man carrying a Home Stone is not to be taken lightly, it is because of the seriousness with which that man takes it.  Most Goreans would die for their own home stone in the books.  So, of course, a person not wishing to fight to the death would not "take it lightly".  I don't think that is the same as saying that one Gorean respects the home stone of another city.  Respect on Gor among strangers is never simply given.  To steal the home stone of another city is a positive thing for a warrior to do although it would be unthinkable for one to disrespect their own home stone or do anything similar. 


While we may not stand when speaking of honor, as that is a custom and not part of the philosophy, many of us feel the same amount of importance concerning honor. Here is the passage that shows the above to be incorrect:

"Indeed, there is a saying on Gor, a saying whose origin is lost in the past of this strange planet, that one who speaks of Home Stone should stand, for matters of honor are here involved, and honor is respected in the barbaric codes of Gor. Tarnsman of Gor - Page 27 "

Honor is respected, and speaking about Home Stones has elements of honor involved.

quote:


As a concept, one's home stone is significant philosophically, as a literal object, it is a role-playing object from a sci-fi novel.  If it weren't for the drive to do a bit of role-play, most wouldn't call themselves Gorean.  Since the Gor series does not represent a single cohesive philosophy but instead looks at many different philosophies and cultures.


You are incorrect again. From page 26 of Tarnsman:

"Later," said my father, "Home Stones were used for villages, and later still for cities. The Home Stone of a village was always placed in the market; in a city, on the top of the highest tower. The Home Stone came naturally, in time, to acquire a mystique, and something of the same hot, sweet emotions as our native peoples of Earth feel toward their flags became invested in it."

So you will notice that a Home Stone represents quite a bit, and is as much role playing as someone that displays the flag of their home country. I understand that some just see a flag as a piece of cloth, but then again there are a few that have died to try and retrieve their countries flag from being taken by an enemy during times of war.

You also seem to be stuck on role-playing, so you mock those things you cannot meaure up to. That is pretty typical of someone that does not comprehend a Gorean morality. That is not an insult, that just is.

quote:


I also thought that one of the points in the books was showing a bit of developmental psych, where the hero passes from the world of black and white rules and homestones and warrior codes into becoming a "formal operational thinker"(Piaget).  So, as a concept of the simple people of Gor, a homestone may have more importance than to someone, like the hero, who has developed "beyond" that.


On the surface this may seem so, but deeper and you will realize it is not that Tarl passes from the world of black and white, he transforms so that he realizes his own world. In his own world  he upholds the principles and ideals of Home Stone, and developes his own code.

quote:


Or, I wonder if most of you guys reject Piaget and his views on morality.


Piaget's views on morality were to make "creators" not anarchist, so I am not sure what you are implying, but I doubt it relates much to Home Stone.

Orion




yankeebabe -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (1/28/2010 7:29:51 PM)

Tal Stephan,

When I am at my sovereign, I don't worry about what others might have achived or found for them selves, to me they are miss gided and unknowing of how to get what they want. When I am in my sovereign its my rules and my choices, I take with me and run my office the same way. I earn what I want for my comfort from working and when I return to sovereign, my needs are met due to ME being free to make choices. My sovereign is not only my home but how I run it.

Yankee





OrionTheWolf -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (1/28/2010 8:57:01 PM)

Well shit. I thought I had clicked on a link to another topic on Home Stone, but instead I posted to this one. At least it is more applicable than the "What makes you a Gorean" topic.




Nephilim -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (1/29/2010 9:44:57 PM)

As part of a close living society we are not sovereign.  On gor where people are Geographically separated, one is Ubar in their own home.  As people choose to cluster into villages and form society, we give up soverenty to government.  In most places on earth we have very little soverenty in our own home, although I read good things about Texas.  For quite awhile, property rights in this state were so bad that if someone robbed you, you were just about legally bound to help them load up your property.  If not, when they slipped carrying it, they could make a claim against your homeowners insurance and sue you.  Luckily they passed a law that said it is no longer required for you to retreat through the nearest window if someone wants to kill you.  (that is no exaggeration)...it was hailed in the media as the law that would make our state the wild west where people are gunned down constantly.  But, just like Y2K, there was lots of noise but no real teeth to the claim.




Musicmystery -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (1/31/2010 11:00:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

"In peasant villages on this world each hut was originally built around a flat stone which was placed in the center of the circular dwelling. It was carved with the family sign and was called the Home Stone. It was, so to speak, a symbol of sovereignty, or territory, and each peasant, in his own hut, was a sovereign."
Tarnsman

Tal Goreans

Home Stone is the first (and in my opinion the most important) aspect of Gorean culture discussed in the books. 

What does being a sovereign in your own home mean to you? 

Please give real life examples of your thoughts and/or behavior as a sovereign, contrasted against how you might think/behave if you were not a sovereign.


Tal Trevelyan,

I always appreciate your posts on these boards. You are careful and thorough, and your thoughts always give me reason to consider and examine my own views. We don't always agree, but I always find the exchange enlightening. For example, a while back I questioned the existence of a cohesive "philosophy"; you ardently disagree. I think this issue here, of Home Stone and sovereignty, speaks to that difference and why I don't think it's as different as it may seem at all.

We absolutely agree on Norman's overall purpose, his thesis as you've well laid out previously, that people on Earth are unhappy, that cultural/social attitudes/assumptions are the cause, working against our nature rather than supporting our place in the order of nature, creating inner conflict, personal and interpersonal, that approaching life with a better, more natural, appropriate and realistic set of assumptions and attitudes can lead to happier, richer, more effective and passionately fulfilling lives of accomplishment and purpose. Please correct me if I've mischaracterized your positions in any of the above.

And here's where we overlap considerably. Much of Norman's work does, indeed, outline thought positions, a philosophy, but the advantage of fiction is the ability to play these out in more than a series of arguments and counterarguments in the pattern of traditional treatises. We see characters learn and grow. We see them struggle and succeed/fail. We see them saying one thing while their nature screams another. We see the interaction of some very different people. We see ideals. We see the corruption of those ideals. And we see this through the thoughts of people who, like ourselves, are not fully conscious of the thought world in which they live.

In another thread, twinkle pulled some quotes I had referenced (thanks twinkle!):

quote:

..."Beware," he said, "I carry a Home Stone."
I stood back and made no move to draw my weapon. Though I was of the caste of warriors and he of peasants, and I armed and he carrying naught but a crude tool, I would not dispute his passage. One does not lightly dispute the passage of one who carries his Home Stone. ~Nomads

But especially this one:
quote:

...Perhaps the most significant difference between the man of Earth and the Gorean is that the Gorean has a Home Stone, and the man of Earth does not. It is difficult to make clear to a non-Gorean the significance of the Home Stone, for the non-Gorean has never had a Home Stone, and thus cannot understand its meaning, its reality. I think that I shall not try to make clear what is the significance to a Gorean of the Home Stone. It would be difficult to put into words; indeed, it is perhaps impossible to put into words; I shall not try. I think this is one of the saddest things about the men of Earth, that they have no Home Stone. ~Slave Girl, 9:213-214

Fish discover water last. It's vitally important, but because it's so important that it literally is their entire environment, they have no need to consciously consider it. Think about what this simple difference means to us. Fish never sit or lie down. Up and down are of no more consequence than left or right. Two dimensional thinking, like the way we think of traveling across the land, would be bizarrely foreign and pointless. Our assumptions, like breathing underwater is death, would be patently ridiculous. Our daily concerns, like the weather, would mean nothing. And all this absurdity and change is on our own planet, just a surface away. Look even at our own conceit--Earth? There's 20 times more ocean than land, and ocean has depth in a way we land-dwellers don't use or usually even consider. 95% of Earth's life is in the seas. We are the anomaly, arrogantly parading about as the purpose for the planet.

Oxygen is vital to life for us. Four minutes without it and we're dead. A minute without it and we're in panic. Two minutes without it and our lungs are burning. A few minutes with low oxygen in the blood can cause brain damage. It's crucial. Yet when do we stop and consider its importance? Rarely if ever. But it's there! Our breath even reflects our emotional state--a sigh, a sharp intact, a long breath outward...each is tied to expression and circumstances, a correspondence that's instinctive and universal to us, simply part of our nature, an integral part, an easily recognized part, even if we don't normally notice.

In English, the name of our planet is synonymous with dirt, soil, the ground. That linguistic underpinning is reflected in our attitudes. The Earth is something to be worked, mined, used, moved about, at our disposal. And "disposal" well reflects our society's lack of connection with that Earth. It's a common theme in the novels, appreciating the purity of Gor's environment and atmosphere vs. the polluted one of Earth.

But in Gorean, the planet Gor is synonymous with Home Stone. Home Stone! That's a fundamentally, radically different starting assumption buried deep in the psyche of every Gorean. Consider, for example, traditional Native American or rain forest peoples and how differently they see their environment and their connection to it. For a Gorean, Home Stone is such a self-evident concept that it's difficult to explain. And I absolutely agree with you, Trevelyan--
quote:

Home Stone is the first (and in my opinion the most important) aspect of Gorean culture discussed in the books.

"Come on over to the ol' Home Stone--we'll have some drinks!"
"Yeah, I'm thinking of moving to a bigger Home Stone, maybe one out in the country."
"So--what Home Stone are you from?"

We'd see all of that dialogue as ridiculous onlinisms. And rightly so. Home Stone is far more than place, residence, city. It is that fundamental connection, even far more than flag (allegiance comes close, but is not the entire concept), that speaks not to choice as much as it does to our nature. No one would lightly challenge a woodland creature cornered, injured, or defending its young. Even a small critter, under those circumstances, can be swift and viciously dangerous. It speaks to their nature. And so does Home Stone to a Gorean. That Home Stone carrying peasant is dangerous, even to a trained warrior. And no Gorean would lightly challenge him. Yes, Home Stones might be stolen by warring nations, but that speaks to how much they respect it, not how little. You attack targets of value in a war. To destroy that Home Stone is to destroy that which binds the rival city. Yes, that's silly to us. It's a foreign concept, as if we've moved to a different world, on the other side of the water surface or the other side of the sun, where the assumptions we take as truth are questioned and found lacking.

This is the point of Gor--that close, careful look at ourselves, our interactions, our community, our society, our culture, our world, rather than taking what's presented as a priori. As Plato says, "The unexamined life is not worth living." But if all anyone takes away from Gor is a bunch of stories--stories that appeal or stories that seem silly--then that reader has missed the point.

Trevelyan--I lived in many places before I moved here. An independent artist (musician and writer), whether free-lancing or doing business jobs, I've always made my own unique decisions about my career and my life, about my relationships, about my society and its politics, about philosophy and morality. Some of this I liked--Taoism, for example--and some of it, while I still respect it, I rejected (Catholicism). But independence alone is not sovereignty.

When I moved here, however, just an empty field, me at the time a busy artist struggling for regular income, everything changed. This land was my land (yes, I actually sang that, over and over and over). My land! Mine! I owned it! I controlled what happened on it! That I planted forest, orchards, vineyards, gardens, that I drilled for water and put in a driveway and utility pole and so forth for my new home--none of that is really the issue. This is my home. I have a deep, firm, fantastic connection to it. There are nicer homes. I don't want them. This is my home.

When my grandfather died, his house and farm were sold off in pieces. Although I had no use for any of this, I felt an intense loss. I was connected to this place. It connected my family. My other grandfather's land had long since been sold to a ski resort and taken by the state for a park. And when my mother died, my parents' house was sold. Bit by bit, what had been my family's Home Stone was gone. Not the places--the connections to those places in and among them that connected my warring siblings. I have a line of maple trees on my property, seeds I planted from maple trees in our yard, given to my by my mother when I moved out here. I cherish those trees for the connection they provide. My grandfather's farm is here now. My Home Stone is here--and it has nothing to do with the location.

Here, I am sovereign. And only a fool would challenge me here--not because I'm a chest-thumping arrogant sword-waving character, but because here I have a Home Stone. And every Gorean would know already not to do so--in fact, it would be unthinkable.

To understand Home Stone is the foundation of understanding Gor. Whether we label it a coherent, purposefully laid out philosophy, as I know you see it, or an inherently different way of being, living, thinking, interacting, one rooted in the natures of our being and branching out in accord with the order of nature into the various other elements of Gorean thought (just as all Taoism originates in Tao, and through yin and yang creates "the ten thousand things"), creating a de facto philosophy, I think matters not. What's important is to understand that essential root of Gorean thought and being.

I wish you well, my friend.

Tim




blacksword404 -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (1/31/2010 10:32:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I'm assuming the peasants were ruled by kings; they're not sovereign in my book. Sovereignty is the opportunity to realise your dreams and aspirations; if the ultimate goal of man is self-mastery, then being a subject is defeating the object.


Tal NorthernGent,

The peasants in the books for the most part ruled themselves. They were usually outside of the city walls. A peasant village might not be rich but they were not without some weapons. You might win out in the end but there was not much to gain from it.

Well during the middle ages the peasants were serfs. Considered to be owned by the land and landowner. More akin to a slave than anything else. But for them to be sovereign over their homes, to control what does and what doesn't happen in it makes them sovereign. Even if they were still poor. For a person who is sovereign the first thing they own is themselves. And because of that they struggle to make opportunities appear for themselves. I own myself and the work I produce. Instead of letting reality bend you, you bend reality to your own will.




Trevelyan -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (2/2/2010 7:28:36 PM)

Tal Tim,

I enjoyed your post a great deal.

I don't think our views are all that different.

You are correct about my interpretation of Norman's central thesis.

I think there is a coherent Gorean "philosophy" in the sense of "a system of values by which one lives" which Norman offers as a more natural (and therefore more likely to lead to health, happiness, and satisfaction) alternative to the system of values by which modern day North Americans live.

The first "philosophical" idea which he discusses is the Home Stone. As I read it, Home Stone is the symbol for two values.
1. Each man, in his own territory, is a sovereign.
2. Love, identify with, and be allegiant to your community.

The personal Home Stone symbolizes the first value, the Home Stone of one's village or city symbolizes the second.

Goreans live by these values, as is illustrated over and over again in the series.

There are other values promulgated and illustrated in the series.

One is the value which underpins the Caste System, which is something along the lines of "Identify with and take pride in your work, and strive to do it excellently and ethically."

Another are the set of values expressed as "the Gorean Morality" in the first chapter of Marauders.

Yet another is the idea of the order of nature, that humans are a male dominant species.

Holding and living these Gorean values is what makes a person a free Gorean.

The typical North American "man in the street" does not hold these values, nor live them.

Three other points:

I prefer to express these values in Norman's words or in a close paraphrase of his words.

I feel that Gorean slave girls have a "philosophy" as well, a system of values by which they live. Holding and living by these values are what make them distinctively kajirae. The values are along the lines of:
1. Be absolutely obedient.
2. Be exquisitely pleasing.
3. Be extremely responsive.
4. Something to the effect of being facinated by and attracted to men.

I don't think it is appropriate to overcomplicate the Gorean Philosophy. It is a system of values by which Goreans live. I think analyzing things like epistemology is going a little too far, trying to make it too much of an "Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods" rather than a simple set of values by which the characters in the books live.

I wish you well, my friend.

Trevelyan




Stephann -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (2/22/2010 6:23:07 AM)

Hi Tim,

That was an amazing post you made, thank you.

Stephan




teiflings -> RE: How are you a sovereign? (2/25/2010 9:07:31 PM)

Hello All,
There is a tremendous amount of thought provoking stuff here, but I would like to respond to something from Tim.
I thought the fish analogy was fantastic, but I think that you implied something I disagree with in what you said about Earth. While I cannot disagree that our culture in these modern times seem to disregard the Earth and treat it with disrespect I think that you might be forgetting something. I believe that if you consider our agrarian roots Earth stood for rich, life supporting, fertile land. It was the sacred mother that yielded crops and nourished our families. Historically most people held the Earth as vital to their survival. I think that this older mentality does reflect the same emotional weight as Home Stone does on Gor. I don't believe that when they said Earth they thought "dirt".

As your fish analogy reflects, the full meaning and ideas behind a word (like Home Stone or Earth) must be looked at from the cultural context that spawned it. A fish would have a different vocabulary because it's fundamental experiences would make it's cultural viewpoint different enough to need a different vocabulary. The Gorean term for it's world reflects its territorial and sovereign oriented nature as our term Earth reflects our farming nature.


I also believe that we tend to over simplify the use of the term 'of' when describing a person's Home Stone (city). In reading here it seems most people think of it as it is used here on Earth. I agree that it is more interpreted as how we use of in relating to family. I am of my parents, I am encoded with their dna; raised in their values and codes. This use of the word of reflects that the Home Stone is the material from which the person is created. A Home Stone is the set of values of its people and creates the perspective and framework that the world is experienced through.

Thanks.




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