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Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics?


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Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/13/2007 5:28:52 PM   
xBullx


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Tal Goreans,

I like to run around in the other forums and visit, or stir things up. This past weekend I missed the Straw Poll in Iowa because I had a Warrior Gathering in my home. Some things take priority. But I just read a thread in the Off Topic section. Anyway, I have been so blah this year about this Presidential campaign. They have all seemed to be running their mouths and as typical, not saying a damn thing, bar one. This weekend I watched his speach, and though I have seen comments of his here and there and thought he can't be real.  He almost talks like a Gorean. Each of us might need to decide that for ourselves, but if this is a section about living Goreans, at least the American Goreans better be interested in living free and that is part of his campaign platform.

Go listen to the YouTube of his Speech and ponder something besides sluts a minute. http://www.youtube.com/RonPaul2008dotcom

I'm not saying throw your hat in his ring, just ponder what as a Gorean you would like to see in your President. I'm having a hell of a time finding one that will say anything like a man. Get away from the political correctness and stop worrying about offending big business. Hell this guy actually thinks people should learn to take care of themselves and hold themselves accountable. Wow what a concept.

To our Goreans from across a pond, pay me only a little mind. This isn't really your concern unless you would like to see the "leaders" of the free world actually act like they accept that responsibility.

Live well Goreans,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 8/13/2007 5:34:15 PM >


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.
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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/13/2007 6:24:21 PM   
Stephann


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Tal Bull,

Those who cannot wield swords may still die upon them.  Concern for politics is the closest thing I can imagine to concern for one's homestone.

I like what I've heard from Ron Paul.  It's frustrating to feel that our vote is 'wasted' on good men (McCain had mine years ago) but if we don't use it, nobody will.

It's worth realizing that the single most popular vote goes to.... nobody.  Less than half of those eligible to vote in the US do.  That means the voice of apathy is, indeed, loudest.

Stephan


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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/13/2007 6:33:02 PM   
xBullx


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Hello Stephan,

It didn't take you long to see the point I was making.

Live well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/13/2007 7:49:04 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Tal Bull,

Damn but I was just talking about this today, and needing to do more research on Ron Paul. One of the unbiased opinions was, whether he has the right principles, and the right abilities, does not mean he will be elected. The American people have allowed the following to determine who is President: managing your party well, managing your campaign well, and managing the voters and supporters well. To have a chance a candidate like Ron Paul would have to do this, and since he is not part of the main two parties, he has to pull from one of them.

Yes old warrior, we have seen each other over in the off topic section. I agree with Stephan, it is having an interest in Home Stone. Too many people say politics do not concern them, but politics and government have an influence on us every day.

I am still amazed that I was thinking this, and then here you are with a post about it.

Orion

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/13/2007 8:47:11 PM   
Jay111


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quote:

he is not part of the main two parties, he has to pull from one of them.


He currently belongs to the Republican Party and is participating in the Republican Presidential debates.  Ron Paul did run for President is 1988 as a  Libertarian. Except for his stance on abortion his views remain libertarian. In regards to foreign policy he's an isolationist.  

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 5:41:26 AM   
Musicmystery


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Tal Bull,

Well, as my blog frequently addresses politics, I guess you know my answer.

Plato points out that those who are above politics will be governed by men lesser than themselves.

Stephan is right. Speaks to Home Stone. And when we disagree--that debate is important, even if it's never resolved.

Best,

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/14/2007 5:42:51 AM >


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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 5:43:40 AM   
mnottertail


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Tal All,

Rhetorically, how did the Ubar become Ubar?

Hup the Fool 

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 5:48:03 AM   
ygraine


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Good morning from Straw Poll heaven!
I think Goreans, and all citizens should take part in the political process as much as they can. It is a key part of personal responsibility.  If you don't vote, if you don't take part, then you lose the right to bitch, which is half the fun!
Y
(sure could use a break from every lame pres candidate stomping Iowa though, can't go get coffee without them coming in for a few sound bites) 

< Message edited by ygraine -- 8/14/2007 5:50:44 AM >


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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 6:05:12 AM   
starshineowned


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Greetings..~smiles~

Just a reply...

Was reading a bit ago about how the US Constitution came about, and the supposed reasonings behind it. This article eluded to it basically being a quieted under the table sort of deal done by the rich and elite to in effect protect them from the commoners who they noted were indeed able to rise and ban together, and threaten the rich and elite. The main dishevel seemed to be regarding property issues, and the commoners before Constitution could and would fight if their propertys were threatened by the bigger and better. The ability for local and smaller communitys..states..etc. to have real power was squelched to the bigger and better federal which comprised of those very same rich and elite.

Any who..the Government now can (under the guise of being for the good of all people)..come and seize your property to run a new super duper highway system through it. This is just an example am thinking of how the Constitution in effect protects the few against the many.

While is part of the voting system..was just wandering really is voting on a specific person really going to matter in the end result since they are being voted into this very same system.
What really can be changed or enhanced to put the power of people really back into the hands of people under the same continued Constitution keeping the supreme power to the Federal?
Wouldn't continued voting to uphold this current setup be just feeding the same machine that removes the power of mass's and puts it into the hands of few?

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 8:27:41 AM   
Musicmystery


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OK---now explain how not voting fixes the problem.

Tim

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 8:40:48 AM   
GhitaAmati


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Any one who doesnt vote, is basically a vote for the enemy...

Think on this...elephant about to step on mouse. You say, no I dont want to get involved, Im going to stay "neutral".  I mean really...by standing back and not helping the mouse, you are basically helping the elephant.

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 8:52:51 AM   
Musicmystery


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A lot of things bug me about politics, but here's one near the top of the list-

Are you Liberal? Conservative? Are you Sure?

One of my students wrote a paper attacking the views of the liberal media, particularly George Will. No, that’s not a typo—that’s what she wrote, and what she meant. I wonder if staunch conservative Will realizes he’s converted. Truth is, the media has become quite conservative—look at FOX news, for example.

Other discussions in both the classroom and the corner store reveal a disturbing reality—people pick their favorite label, then their views. Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative—these seem to be just words divorced from popular policy, and those misunderstandings lead to poor national choices.

Consider the proud Republicans who argue we must protect American jobs from foreign competition. Are they aware this is the Democrats’ position? Republicans would argue for free trade. NAFTA (North American Free Trade Agreement) especially seems to be a lightning rod, approved under President Clinton, despite the reality that the pact created ten times the number of jobs as it initially cost, the benefit continuing, the cost history, affected employees the beneficiaries of funding to cover the transition (and that funding exceeded the cost).

The WTO (World Trade Organization) also draws some fire, while other lesser known but important agreements, such as cooperation among the Pacific rim nations, seem to escape the radar. Any introductory macroeconomics text can lay out the well established case that such international trade benefits all parties (see comparative advantage). Why the opposition? More benefits are imported than exported.

At the same time, the same people oppose the United Nations, or any attempt at meaningful international law. So, while importing inexpensive food, clothing, toys, and so forth, we also abdicate the safety standards we trust in the U.S., putting ourselves at risk. Sound counterproductive?

How about fiscal responsibility? Instead of runaway spending and high taxes, we should pay as we go!

Not a Republican position—Reagan quadrupled the national debt, changing the largest creditor nation into the largest debtor nation. Clinton turned that around, generating the largest peacetime expansion in U.S. history, upsetting the conventional hawkish view that expanding economies need a war. Bush brought the U.S. back to both war and burgeoning deficits.

Interestingly, here Democrats and Conservatives agree! Pay for programs, wars as they come. Vice-President Cheney disagrees, claiming “Reagan proved that deficits don’t matter.” That’s like running up your credit card, pretending you’ll never have trouble making payments. It only works so long. As Howard Dean noted, “borrow and spend” isn’t better than the “tax and spend” mantra often leveled.

Think we need to reel in such spending? Great. That’s Republican—until you talk about which programs you want to cut. “Wait! I just want to cut the waste!” You know it’s not as easy as that, right? And I’m sure you know cutting your household spending isn’t as easy as deciding to do it.

Take health care. The U.S. spends more per capita than any nation—yet we’re the only industrial nation without universal health care—25% of Americans uninsured. So what? Their problem? Not when their serious conditions find their way to the emergency room at tax payer expenses instead of cheaper preventions. “Yeah, but universal health care will mean trade-offs!” You don’t think we have trade-offs now? Even if you think we should just abandon those people without means, that will inevitably affect the crime rate for people with no options and nothing less to lose. Fine? More law and order? That costs money too.

Or military spending. The U.S. spends more on the military than any other nation by a fantastic margin. Overkill? What are we really getting for it? Rumsfeld sent us down a path (ignoring Gen. Colin Powell—what the hell does HE know about Iraq…) merely stretching and demoralizing our forces, even causing commissioned officers to quit in droves. That’s money down the drain.

Much of this economic mumbo-jumbo is built on misunderstandings. In the 1920s. Americans benefited from sales to Europe, temporarily ravaged by WWI. It didn’t last, catching up to us in the 1930s. Prosperity returned in the 1950s—selling to a Europe ravaged by WWII, but again, this couldn’t last. In the 1960s, Democrat presidents ran up the deficit, and in the stagflation years of the 1970s, conservative Republican Nixon abolished the gold standard to allow currency to float—and wisely so, to the chagrin of conservatives.

Under Reagan, 25% of U.S. assets moved to foreign ownership. That has grown rapidly under Bush, since we aren't financing these wars ourselves. We can't now just tell Saudi Arabi or China or whoever to get lost--they literally own a substantial stake of the nation.

Here’s the thing. We talk about liberals and conservatives, but we inherit these labels and their positions from talk radio instead of thinking for ourselves. Consequently, we even end up voting for the people whose positions we oppose—we just don’t know it.

Going out to smash things is easy. Building a nation--including our own--is more complicated. I prescribe thinking, not excuses or throwing our hands up in despair.

Vote--including, or perhaps especially, if you disagree with me.

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 8/14/2007 9:08:40 AM >


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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 9:30:18 AM   
xBullx


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Excellent........... a man with a mind, his own mind.............you just might be a Gorean.

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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 2:11:09 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Rhetorically, how did the Ubar become Ubar?


Relevantly, how did the Ubar become Fubar?
And how to avoid it the next time around?


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 3:46:31 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Greetings starshineowned,

Was this one paper or book on the Constitution or several? Was this someone interpreting thinsg for you, with their opinion or your own conclusions? Try reading the Federalist papers, and supporting writings from our founding fathers.

On to the OP: I believe in less big government and more power to the states and local communities. I think that is very Gorean.

The only way I see bring the servants of the people back in line, is to vote out every single incumbent, with the message that "We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, are tired of the politics as usual at the federal level." We also need to get rid of the 17th amendment, and have Senators appointed by their respective States. This now gives the States more power back, and the States are represented at the Federal Level (more of a republic).

The unfortunate part I see, is that human competition, along with the human need to be "right" and to force that "right" on others, has oversome what we should do. Too many times I have heard people say something is bad, just because it is supported by one party or the other. Let us face it, the common voter does not dig deep enough, or they just ignore principles. I can respect anyone that says "XYZ is my principles" and then when elected, they follow XYZ. I believe the politicians are as far away from Gorean Morality as many can get. I see them sometimes as no more than ethical criminals.

I still vote though, and often I vote Libertarian, because I want to see more options for the people to choose from. If I feel a vote will be close, and I am diametrically opposed to one candidate or another, I may vote against them, as the lesser of two evils, but it makes me feel dirty and that I am contributing to the problem. Ahh what murky waters we swim in.

Do we wonder why the Priest Kings kept the people of Gor in seperate City States and such? Ever wonder why they limit the technology? Hmmmmm. Things to ponder.

Orion

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/14/2007 10:29:18 PM   
starshineowned


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Greetings..~smiles~

It was actually just info came across when looking into slavery from the wage aspects Master. Honestly it just posed a different look, and sounded logical on some points..though in the end it probably was just propaganda from a disgruntled person.

Just sort of seemed interesting in some respects because for as much as people support the government..hears so much negativity against it, and how big brother is in their business. From that point it just sort of came..well how does continuing to feed big brother on the whole actually get at the root of how big brother got so big and was just curious if anyone else ever brought it back to the very Constitution as written being the cornerstone.

Apologizes..just flipped through many different websites and other than reading and moving on..didn't bookmark anything.

Well Wishes
starshine
Happy slave of Master Delvin

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/15/2007 4:37:18 AM   
Manawyddan


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Why am I not surprised this turned out to be a Ron Paul thread?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jay111
Except for his stance on abortion his views remain libertarian. In regards to foreign policy he's an isolationist.


He's also opposed to gay marriage and some civil rights laws, which I'm not crazy about. But in his favor, pretty much all the views he has which I oppose, he feels ought to be decided by the States. So he would be unlikely to advocate anything as foolish as a federal defense of marriage act.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
A lot of things bug me about politics, but here's one near the top of the list-

Are you Liberal? Conservative? Are you Sure?

Other discussions in both the classroom and the corner store reveal a disturbing reality—people pick their favorite label, then their views. Democrat, Republican, Liberal, Conservative—these seem to be just words divorced from popular policy, and those misunderstandings lead to poor national choices.


Some fascinating recent studies have whown that the Republic party has been quite successful in turning 'liberal' into a pejorative. Most people characterise themselves as conservative and not liberal. However, when you look at their actual political views, they typically support liberal and not conservative causes.

There was a poll during the last election which indicated (I chose that word carefully, as I am wary of polls which seem to fit a political agenda) that a large proportion of the people who voted for Bush didn't actually understand his platform, and thought he held a view opposite from the one that he actually held.

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/15/2007 5:02:08 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Well my definition of conservative is:

1) Less government
2) Less laws
3) Less power at the Federal level
4) Less spending, or responsible spending

So based on the above, I always think calling Bush and co., neo-cons a misnomer. A more accurate one would be non-cons. I do not believe government should be there to take care of us the people. I believe life should be tough. I believe in a stron national defense, not necessarily imperialism. I believe that Social Security is a scam (I can't open a retirement account company under the same conditions). I know for a fact that Medicare is a scam, I owned a Medical supply company for a few years. The government at the federal level is out of control. They are servants of the people, and need to be taught that.

Live or die on your principles, but at least be admired for them.

Orion

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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/15/2007 5:14:20 AM   
Stephann


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A brief personal account,

During my recent 3 years in Chile, I was removed from most of the political issues that face the US.  Most political news I received was from a decidedly leftist press, that was constantly in shock and surprise at how foolish the greatest government in the world could be about the simplest of things.  How we often allowed our government's heavy handedness and pure arrogance to inflict our will on the rest of the world. 

Then again, the little guys usually have penis envy.  The truth is somewhere in between, I think.

I learned a fair bit about Libertarian politics as I was getting ready to ramp up to my return, and I liked the concepts even if I find the actual party and structure to be unwieldy.

I agree completely with your position Orion.  I'll add that far tougher enforcement of the few laws we would have, would be key.  Personally, I also believe a huge overhaul of the prison system to combine the best features of psychological reconditioning (a fancy way of saying rehabilitation), job training, boot camp and Hell is in order. 

Stephan


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RE: Should Goreans concern themselves in Politics? - 8/15/2007 6:16:13 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Then again, the little guys usually have penis envy.  The truth is somewhere in between, I think.


Do not forget phallic worship.

That's what it feels like my country is doing.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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