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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/19/2007 11:35:04 AM

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quote:

Girls are unwanted because they are seen as a financial burden. Landholdings can pass to in-laws and dowries, which themselves are illegal, siphon money from families.

First birthday

Why pay 50,000 rupees to your new in-laws when you can pay 500 rupees for an abortion? You do not even have to leave home.

Boooo deeee Hooooo Hooooo

Such horrible people, such a horrible thing to do!

Reasons given for having abortions in the United States

by Wm. Robert Johnston
last updated 4 December 2006

Summary: This report reviews available statistics regarding reasons given for obtaining abortions in the United States, including surveys by the Alan Guttmacher Institute and data from seven state health/statistics agencies that report relevant statistics (Arizona, Florida, Louisiana, Minnesota, Nebraska, South Dakota, and Utah). The official data imply that AGI claims regarding "hard case" abortions are inflated by roughly a factor of three. Actual percentage of U.S. abortions in "hard cases" are estimated as follows: in cases of rape or incest, 0.3%; in cases of risk to maternal health or life, 1%; and in cases of fetal abnormality, 0.5%.

About 98% of abortions in the United States are elective, including socio-economic reasons or for birth control. This includes about 25% for primarily economic reasons.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

Its comforting to know we are so much more civilized in the US.

What makes our reasons any better or worse than theirs?

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 8/19/2007 11:36:23 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/19/2007 1:59:43 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
...outside of the mains Cities though they are still practicing primitive beliefs.

Wait, you mean those people are practicing christians, jews, and muslims!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
What makes our reasons any better or worse than theirs?

That's why I always consider the abortion solution akin to "Kill a baby for Jesus." I don't want it, I won't love it - maybe Jesus will!

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/19/2007 2:27:00 PM

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Meh. It's a barbaric practice. So many support it, thinking it's a liberal practice for the sheer sake of defying conversative convention on the subject. Apparently, life isn't valuable to everyone?

In any case, I'm very much an ethical-calculus sort of fellow. A system of values to work with for decision making. I'm continually surprised by just how many fail to see that we, as living creatures that see ourselves in others, maintain both a value in survival of self, then a value of survival in others via empathy.

Then again, when it all gets to be too much for one and hurts one's head, the answer, "fuck it, it's not my problem" may be easier for this one?

(in reply to Real0ne)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/19/2007 3:35:40 PM

BamaD

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Please note that this is not approval of the Eskimo practice but merely and explination. It was done when there were too many to feed. Which cuts population growth more, the elimination of a male or the elimination of a female. It was a simple understanding of reality. Again I do not condone only explain.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/19/2007 4:39:09 PM

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Actually the Innuit valued women greatly, knowing that they were required to populate the next generation. They lived a very hard life close to the edge of survival. Periodically, the fish or game would not come back right, and they would be faced with very hard choices for survival. The weakest, least productive members of the society would be abandoned, ie left on the ice. A healthy Female child was incredibly valuable, as it could be traded/married off to a different tribe for food, and would be least likely to be abandonded/killed. Deformed babies of both sexes were routinley killed, that has been the norm for most societies.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/19/2007 4:43:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

Meh. It's a barbaric practice. So many support it, thinking it's a liberal practice for the sheer sake of defying conversative convention on the subject. Apparently, life isn't valuable to everyone?

In any case, I'm very much an ethical-calculus sort of fellow. A system of values to work with for decision making. I'm continually surprised by just how many fail to see that we, as living creatures that see ourselves in others, maintain both a value in survival of self, then a value of survival in others via empathy.

Then again, when it all gets to be too much for one and hurts one's head, the answer, "fuck it, it's not my problem" may be easier for this one?

i am surprised dyncorp isnt over there buy them up to put em on ebay

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/19/2007 11:46:48 PM

NefertariReborn

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-fast reply-

Just a quick note. If you watched Lisa Ling's report on female children in China (they're easier to adopt from the orphanages than males), you might remember where she pointed out that because of the sex disparity men were now paying to have women kidnapped from outlying regions. Richer families of course had a better chance of finding a wife for their son since they could pay the kidnappers more money. Lisa showed a village where about 90% of the children were boys. I thought to Myself, "Now there's one way to cut down on the birthrate. "

(in reply to Politesub53)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 12:05:56 AM

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RealOne: I'd rather see them put on Ebay than this. Truly.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2007 12:06:22 AM >

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"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 12:33:35 AM

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I read this years ago, and something about there being too many males and not enough fems to marry the boys off to now... Fortunately with globalization, they can find wives or other boys to marry all over the world.

M

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"Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence." Erich Fromm

(in reply to kittinSol)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 12:46:53 AM

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If you believe in abortion then you can't have an argument against this practice. There are valid cultural reasons for this practice no matter how it skews their society and how weird we might think it is in the west. Anyway, we have no room to criticize, there are thousands of abortions in the west for no other reason than abortion being used as late contraception which are the majority of abortions.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 12:55:41 AM

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Well actually, I sort of see your point, but - I think you can object to it and still see abortion as a viable option meatcleaver - because the practice in question is eradicating one sex in favor of another - that's the entire point, as I see it (and also the title of the thread) .

Not to mention in some countries where this is practiced, getting rid of the girls still takes place mostly after birth, not before. Especially in rural areas (China) It's too horrible to contemplate (to me).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2007 1:05:01 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 12:57:53 AM

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It is to me simply a sad practice, and not really related to abortion, and the reasons people have them (no matter what sex the fetus is).
As I understand, people aren't doing this because they are poor and destitute; they are doing it because female offsprings are of little or no value to them. It would be a cold day in hell/over my dead body, when any man would force me to abort my lil one because it is a female. M

_____________________________

"touching was and still is and will always be the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni
"Love is the only sane and satisfactory answer to the problem of human existence." Erich Fromm

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 1:00:15 AM

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Some of these countries have cultures that simply don't value UMs, period. UMs are viewed as mere chattel. Take Thailand - there is a thriving sex for sale practice thriving there - mostly among girls (but also boys) even as young as age five. It's disgusting (but I better stop discussing it, or this thread may get pulled).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2007 1:01:32 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 1:05:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Well actually, I think you can object to it and still see abortion as a viable option meatcleaver - because the practice in question is eradicating one sex in favor of another - that's the entire point, as I see it (and also the title of the thread) .

Not to mention in some countries where this is practiced, getting rid of the girls still takes place mostly after birth, not before. Especially in rural areas (China) It's too horrible to contemplate (to me).

- Susan

So throwing female fetus' down the toilet is wrong but throwing fetus' down the toilet is not wrong if fetus' of both sexes are thrown down the toilet?

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 1:08:08 AM

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meatcleaver: With all due respect -that's not the topic, though, as I see it. I don't want to discuss abortion, because it's a discussion that never gets resolved in any particular side's favor. It is a never-ending debate, and actually from my POV, a much different one. *In this discussion, we are discussing the treatment in various countries of those those UMs who are already living, (at least I am) so I am sticking with that topic. You've made your position on abortion known. Perhaps someone else wants to discuss it.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2007 1:39:25 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 1:09:08 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

Some of these countries have cultures that simply don't value UMs, period. UMs are viewed as mere chattel. Take Thailand - there is a thriving sex for sale practice thriving there - mostly among girls (but also boys) even as young as age five. It's disgusting (but I better stop discussing it, or this thread may get pulled).

- Susan

Wealth is what makes a society value its children as children. Again, the west has no room to talk here. It has only been a little over a hundred years that we in the west have treated our children as children and not as potential earners. It is wealth that has given us that opportunity. (the obvious exceptions are the rich of course)

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 1:11:05 AM

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Well, meatcleaver, look on the bright side. At least some progress has been made. Rome wasn't built in a day. The U.S.(and most other developed western cultures, save parts of Russia and some of the eastern bloc countries) is a far cry from allowing thousands of children to be sold for sex on the streets every single day, with nobody putting a stop to it, in broad daylight.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2007 1:40:00 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 1:11:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

meatcleaver: With all due respect -that's not the topic, though, as I see it. I don't want to discuss abortion, because it's a discussion that never gets resolved in any particular side's favor. It is a never-ending debate. You've made your position on abortion known. Perhaps someone else wants to discuss it.

- Susan

My point was not so much about abortion but about western hypocrisy. Criticizing the values of another culture while not wishing to look in the mirror and realize that it is no better itself.

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There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 1:13:12 AM

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We're a hell of lot better, I do believe. That's my point. Yes, we in the U.S. have a few problems (Foster care horrors, etc.) - but at least the U. S. has instituted foster care as a real life working concept, and we value UMs (boys and girls) having a right to a free education, etc.

I know you may disagree these are pertinent difference with some other countries, and that's fine with me, if you do. I am not sure this has as much to do with wealth as it has to do with the prevailing culture in a country.

Are we getting child welfare 100% perfect, here in the U.S? Of course not. But I hardly think we compare to places like Thailand or India or China, on some very pertinent bases.

In places like Thailand and Vietnam, the entire culture is different, in that they do not value their children as human beings. That is what allows them to sell them off to brothels at the age of, say, five or eight - for a goat or a few chickens, or for $50. Nobody stops it. It's a common practice. Name one place in the U.S. where this takes place on a routine basis, in full view of the police?

In some countries, this kind of thing simply would never take place, no matter how wealthy or poor the people were, IMO. I see it as a cultural difference more than an economic one (although economics might make it easier to justify).

* Maybe I should not discuss this particular aspect of child welfare differences anymore, because I truly don't want this thread to get pulled. But perhaps by now you've seen my point. I do consider it a very valid one.

I don't care if some see this POV as "arrogant". I do think we value children more here (and in some other western cultures) than some other countries do, and I think it's extremely sad that it continues (although some folks are trying to stop it, I think it will probably take a long time to be successful at that, like decades).

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 8/20/2007 1:58:38 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Eradicating women. - 8/20/2007 5:49:52 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

If you believe in abortion then you can't have an argument against this practice.

I don't 'believe' in abortion. Nobody can. I support free choice and the right to have an abortion regardless of the circumstances.

quote:

There are valid cultural reasons for this practice no matter how it skews their society and how weird we might think it is in the west. Anyway, we have no room to criticize, there are thousands of abortions in the west for no other reason than abortion being used as late contraception which are the majority of abortions.

I am well aware of the West/East dichotomy, meatcleaver. I am not attempting to criticise a different culture or a different way of life. But the fact that in Indian society, girls are more expensive than boys raises my feminist sensitivies. I am arguing that there is a genocidal situation in India today because of the practice of eliminating baby girls. They estimate over a million girls are missing, all things considered.

And I'm fully aware that the mix of the abortion issue, post-imperialism and feminism is a toxic one.

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