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Integrity - 8/22/2007 6:53:29 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Goreans,

I suppose most of us, at least the Americans here are aware of the Michael Vick saga(if not do please google it, I'm sure you will find yourself much more than enough info). It seems this man has little value for his integrity. I suppose I could understand him wanting to say nothing about his guilt or innocence when this all first sprung forth. (The dog fighting scandal for those of you going...huhhhhh?) But, rather than simply shutting his mouth and not compromising his integrity he readily disposed of it(his integrity).

I recently got a traffic citation. I could have rather easily started with the all too common attempt to weasel my way out of this ticket, but it occurred to me that would most likely lead to a compromise in my integrity. While we all bend the rules a bit (perhaps a questionable practice all of its own) and most of us can find reason to justify this, at least in our own minds. We all too often are not prepared to accept the consequences for these actions. Hence we on occasion fib or manipulate the truth(s). Yes, I took my medicine, stood silent and quite disgusted with myself.

Michael Vick however chose to initially to tell all those important to him and close to the issue an untruth or ten. He seemingly has not only been caught with his hand in the proverbial cookie jar, but he has lost valued trust and confidence of those that could have been has best allies in the end. He is now witness to the act when one mistake leading to countless others. He is most likely one of the most remarkable athletes to ever grace any type of sporting arena. But his courage seems misplaced. While he was able to face and evade 300 plus pound adversaries, he was unable to face two of mans most obvious demons, himself and the truth.

While I used myself and Mr. Vick as examples in this post; do understand that my intent within this thread is of a much higher purpose. How well do we all do when faced with a quandry of our own integrity?  Is it so easily compromised as it was for Michael? Men of honor at times, are in very short supply. Let’s not complicate this thread and make it about anything other than our personal integrity, why it is important, what we can do as Goreans to see to its welfare and why integrity is important to you when you witness it so easily discarded.

Within any relationship we almost always claim that trust is quite possibly the most important single issue. That being said, without personal integrity being something we value as dearly as life itself, how could we expect another to possibly trust their life or anything else in our hands? And no this does not only apply to that trust between a man and his slave. Could anyone out here ever trust Michael Vick in any way. Never mind what he did wrong with the dogs or gambling. He found it awfully easy to lie to almost everyone and on countless issues, so far as we know. We need to also remember the Ron Mexico incident.

Many things to ponder on the weight of one simple word, don’t you think?  It leaves me to wonder exactly how much ballast is required to keep the scale tipped in ones favor.

Live well,

Bull


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.
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RE: Integrity - 8/22/2007 7:45:36 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

Being from Atlanta, I am very familiar with vick. Since I was also in the club business for a while, I also understand the mentality of the pro ball player. Neither of those has much integrity to begin with. They have been taught that the rules can be bent for them, because of their value as a ballplayer, and the money that brings the team. In most sports, it is all about the money now, one of the main reasons I do not watch sports anymore, I detest the illusion.

As to integrity, I think we have all had those tests that occur, and I know with me that each time I failed the test, and eventually admitted it to myself, it strengthened my integrity for the next one. I have also found that it is unique to own up to things, and I have gotten out of many tickets and even a battery charge one time, because I owned up to it, explained the situation without offering excuse, and the officer/s made a determination.

To me it is truly freedom, to do as you want, and accept the consequences of those actions.

Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Integrity - 8/22/2007 8:03:46 PM   
aeleberaNB


Posts: 690
Joined: 6/4/2007
From: Alberta, Calgary, Canada
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters Bull and Orion:

~~smiles~~

when faced with the difficulty of owning up to something or denying my culpability in it, i would rather face the consequences of my actions than to try blaming another for my mistakes.

after all owning up to my errors is what i value most and i have instilled in my uhms the same thing...... that is that if they are caught doing something they know better than to do, to own up to it and face the results of doing so.

i prefer to be honest and say "yes i did that and am very sorry that i did so," beg forgiveness and if it is given start a clean slate.

wishing You well,
aelebera{NB}

_____________________________

He is the Master, i am His slave, His property, His muse to do with as He pleases, when and where He pleases. Trust in thy Master as HE knows what is best for His property.

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RE: Integrity - 8/22/2007 8:06:06 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		I think it's important to distinguish between "integrity" and "honesty".  Integrity is the quality of being integrated, or consistant with oneself.  Honesty is certainly a valued trait in most circles, but only represents "integrity" for a man who places any value on honesty in himself in the first place. 

In Vick's case I'm not sure we're witnessing a lack of integrity.  I think he's probably just an asshole who places no value whatsoever on the truth to begin with.  What he did is probably wholly consistant with his character.  It's just bad character.

So, why am I splitting this hair?  It's because I think it's important to distinguish between those who hold standards in common with us that they just fail to live up to sometimes, and those who just plain have different standards.  In this case, you can count on Mr. Vick trying very hard to act as if he falls into the former category, when in fact he probably belongs in the latter.  Which, again, is just consistant with the same bad character.

I hold this truth to be self evident; not all men are created equal.


_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Integrity - 8/22/2007 8:58:31 PM   
ryssa


Posts: 501
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Master,

I just completed reading your post over three times, and find myself wondering...
if there are certain undertones that you are communicating here?

Perhaps the undertones that I'm referring to are summed up in what Master
Leonidas has said...

"it's important to distinguish between those who hold standards in common with us that they just fail to live up to sometimes, and those who just plain have different standards.  In this case, you can count on Mr. Vick trying very hard to act as if he falls into the former category, when in fact he probably belongs in the latter.  Which, again, is just consistant with the same bad character."

Am I wondering correctly Master? If so, which do you believe is the correct correlation?

melissa

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 4:32:04 AM   
Mayhem1703


Posts: 10
Joined: 8/20/2007
Status: offline 		Very deep and accurate, Leonidas.  And a sad commentary on what this country's school systems and the society itself puts into our children.  While in school I've seen, I'm sure we've all seen, the star football player pushed through with failing grades so he can play, ste star athletes in pro sports doing something wrong and getting a slap on the wrist.  Heck, look at Britney Spears.  She got bussted for driving drunk and high on coke, I think, and basically got a slap on the wrist and it was not her first offense.  Anyone not in the public spotlight would have lost their license.  Our schools and our society seem to be teaching our children do what you can to become famous.  Then do what you want with impunity.  I love my country, but it's getting hard to maintain that love with how dishonorable it's becoming...

Mayhem

Just getting back in the swing of things...

(in reply to ryssa)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 6:44:12 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Leonidas,

This makes alot of sense, and something that should be easily seen by all, but I missed it and have been missing it. This is actually the crux of something I have been thinking about. Two men can have integrity, being consistant and true to their own morals and ethics, but still be at odds to one another, because those morals and ethics are different.

You are absolutely correct that vick probably does not put alot of value on truth. Most of the ball players that party here in Atlanta, would travel with a group of followers, and doubtful those followers would tell them that the leaders shit stinks. Growing up with great talent like that, it is doubtful many people ever told them of any character flaws, but instead excused it because of their great talent. So they value great physical talent, the power it brings, and are taught they do not have to play by the same rules as everyone else. No wonder many of them screw up like this.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I think it's important to distinguish between "integrity" and "honesty".  Integrity is the quality of being integrated, or consistant with oneself.  Honesty is certainly a valued trait in most circles, but only represents "integrity" for a man who places any value on honesty in himself in the first place. 

In Vick's case I'm not sure we're witnessing a lack of integrity.  I think he's probably just an asshole who places no value whatsoever on the truth to begin with.  What he did is probably wholly consistant with his character.  It's just bad character.

So, why am I splitting this hair?  It's because I think it's important to distinguish between those who hold standards in common with us that they just fail to live up to sometimes, and those who just plain have different standards.  In this case, you can count on Mr. Vick trying very hard to act as if he falls into the former category, when in fact he probably belongs in the latter.  Which, again, is just consistant with the same bad character.

I hold this truth to be self evident; not all men are created equal.



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 7:47:26 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Leonidas and Orion,

Excellent fellas, this is exactly what I was after in my post. We spend a great deal of time on the "bigger" picture. We look at the relationships and the word Gorean itself, but what about the details, the small parts that build the beast so to speak. I did have a different thought process itself in where i was going with the word integrity. I guess I knew it's deffinition, but had it mixed a bit in context. Thanks Leonidas if the nudge back in track. I suppose it is the honesty of character I was initially after with the example of Vick. And even myself.

But staying consistant with this word and it's bearing on our Gorean character, I can make a thread for honesty a bit later as I had hoped to start covering certain ethics simply to allow folks to express the details of the Gorean point of view, but the way, thanks to you both for your imput, I knew I could count on you, and thanks to the others that have thus far responded.

But I digress, integrity itself seems easily enough compromised from some when wiggle room presents itself. This is one of the major reason I am having such a time with these Presidential candidates(let's not make this a political discussion, I'm only creating an example here. It seems a standard train of thought to alter ones views by the way the winds blow. A female candidate has yet to remain steadfast in any light as far I can see. Does this inconsistancy not in fact compromise our trust in folks that readily devalue their most recent position. Perhaps each position is an honest one, but to wander back and forth in any of the issues demonstrates absolutely little to no leadership value.

So what is your integrity like when it comes to your Gorean ethics, indeed your Gorean morality? It is certain that we all grow and that we have changes of hert as we learn, but it would seem that some room for expansion is always allowed. Be honest with yourself and explore you own personal integrity as a Gorean, do you travel a path that others would respect? As I said, I am of the mind that I intend to, with all of you, explore my personal ethics openly here over the next little while. None of us need admit intimate details or anything we wish not to. But, to better understand the details that make the Gorean, the man, the woman seems like somthing we should explore more deeply.

Thanks again to all, and by all means, please continue, I have already started learning.

Live well free and serve well little sluts,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 8:24:36 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		hello little slut,

I know that as you sort out all the things in your mind at times you might misread my intent or actions. To be honest I see absolutely no inconsistancy in your actions, whether publicly or personal. You have shown the normal resistance to things and the typical excitement to others. It isn't your duty in all things to figure out exactly what I'm thinking or what I am intending. A girls duty is obedience and to remain pleasing to the best of her ability. While you may have a ways to go, you are not failing by any means. I am not generally displeased.

So no, I had no intention that this thread meant anything for you, that it wouldn't for anyone else reading it. It was simply suppose to inspire thought,. as it must have. To become the girl you are aspiring to be, you must alter some preconceived notions of lifes grand scheme. You do at this point have much emphasis on your life goals, not yet willing to trust another to see to your welfare.(this is not a fault, it is typical of our present society) In fact if you are to be kajira, you will have no choice and that is also something you must accept. Placing all your energies toward the goal of a happy owner and nothing, and I do mean ABSOLUTELY nothing else. If it is important to you, in time you will, if not, that to says all it needs to. As with any girl hoping to discover the kajira within her, you will have to unlearn many societal norms and conditionings. That will not be a compromise in your integrity, it will be a discovery of a new direction. For you, an improved direction. You are only beginning your path of discovery, with so far to go it truly is hard to assertain where you will end up (mentally and physically) and even with whom. Keeping crawling wench in time you will walk and then you will run.

Anyway, I don't want to hijack my own thread, this is something we can discuss privately.

Serve well,

Bull


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to ryssa)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 8:44:24 AM   
ryssa


Posts: 501
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline 		Good Morning Master,

Thank you for taking the time to explain and for helping me to sort through all the confusion :)

I do apologize for highjacking your thread.

Sincerely,
melissa

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 1:40:53 PM   
Wyrd


Posts: 109
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Columbia, SC
Status: offline 		Unfortunatly this happens all to often in "modern" society, those that comprimise their own integrity are rewarded and those of us that stand true to our values suffer, but I view that as a short term suffering, I do afterall have to live with myself 24 hours a day.

We had a situation locally with the local BDSM group, where they made a choice that violated their own by-laws, I left and told them why I left, if they cannot hold true to their own rules, I cannot trust them.


_____________________________

My Site

(in reply to ryssa)
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RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 1:52:53 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Integrating your stated values into your every day life, and the choices you make. That is my own definition of integrity.

In Vic's Case I would hazard to guess that his stated values are far different than his actual applied values.
Thus he has not integreated his value system, and has little integrity in my view.

Leonidas and I are in the same camp on this issue.

(in reply to Wyrd)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 1:55:59 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Wyrd but there is a price to be paid long term when you don't integrate your values with your life.
Most often it is a natural consequences price, and it ofen takes years for it to circle around and bite you on the butt.
But when it does many folks simply can't handle it and crack up. They become self destuctive and crash and burn with no need for any "help" from anyone.

Took a few years in a case I know locally but it certainly comes around in most cases.

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 2:32:09 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

Wyrd but there is a price to be paid long term when you don't integrate your values with your life.
Most often it is a natural consequences price, and it ofen takes years for it to circle around and bite you on the butt.
But when it does many folks simply can't handle it and crack up. They become self destuctive and crash and burn with no need for any "help" from anyone.

Took a few years in a case I know locally but it certainly comes around in most cases.


I'm prompted to think of the movie "American Beauty" in this theme...

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Archer)
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RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 3:24:44 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		I wouldn't call it splitting hairs, Leonidas.

I find it encouraging that others also recognize that Integrity is compatible with other morals (moral relativism), and a virtue in its own right, probably a seperate axis altogether. Most people I've encountered reject that notion entirely, and a significant number place no value on Integrity whatsoever. Not that I'm perfect, of course, but that's another matter.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Leonidas)
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RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 8:22:42 PM   
patina


Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline 		Greetings:
 
 
This girl has something to point out no one else seems to have remarked on yet.  If a man is going to be so low as to use dogs in a abusive way just in order to make more money.  Then that person-Vick- would have no problems with lying to everyone.  He only has one thing he cares about and that is money. 
 
How can those people even look at themselves with what they have done to innocent creatures that only want to give us love and devotion?  A pit bull is a great breed if not bred and trained to be mean. 
 
Sorry enough of my soap box.  So many of the young men are ruined by the high school staff because they happened to be good in throwing, catching, hitting, or running with some kind of ball.  The teachers pass them through with A-B so they get scholarships but few of them last one semester at a college, before they flunk out.  This great athlete now pumps gas at a gas station making min wage.  Integrity seems to be losing in all areas of our social culture.  There are times this one wishes we did live as the Goreans do.   
 
 
Hope this is not offensive to anyone.
 
Peace be to all
 patina

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a diamond in the rough

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RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 8:45:53 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		I think you're missing the point, patina.

While I lack the words to express my contempt for the actions in question, I don't see them as automatically implying no Integrity, but merely a set of values I do not agree with. Certainly if he did it in my sphere of influence, one of us would not be able to leave it unaided- if at all- afterwards. But that's a conflict like any other; one person tries to do something another finds unacceptable, and it is resolved one way or the other. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Integrity.

I can respect the Integrity of someone who attempts to take my loved ones from me in accordance with their own values.
Which does not mean they would have them without leaving me dead or dying at some point.
Just that I would not say it implied a lack of Integrity on their part.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Integrity - 8/23/2007 11:48:05 PM   
Makaku


Posts: 20
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		Tal, all.

I agree: he lacks integrity not because he fights dogs, but because he DENIED he fights dogs and hides what he does from those he knows would disapprove. So he has two faces showing. A man of integrity has one face. The private face and public face are the same. He tells the truth and keeps his word. A man lacks integrity (i.e. is not personally integrated) when he lives a dual life, lying to maintain the facade. Clearly a man of integrity is more admirable than one without, whatever the values expressed.

I wish you well
Makaku

_____________________________

"Any man might, if he dared, don the scarlet and gird himself with weapons. Any man might place upon his brow the helm of iron. But it is not the scarlet, not the steel, not the helm of iron which makes the warrior." Beasts of Gor, p.340

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Integrity - 8/24/2007 3:19:13 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		Has anyone missed that the real culprits here, are that he is more like the fighting dogs themselves?  Given the training to fight to earn money, but hardly any training to do anything else the way a 'normal' dog is?

A mentality of self-awareness of his situation is being ascribed to him that he simply does not possess.  Many of these individuals understand the difference between right and wrong, as video game objectives; the only real experience they have with it is on television.  Why do you expect to pull the best basketball players out of a war zone, stuff their pants with 100$ bills, and expect them to be some sort of role models?

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to Makaku)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Integrity - 8/24/2007 7:32:04 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Professionally we are involved in football so I make this post from that point of view. It is an unfortunate comment on society that excellence breeds entitlement. I don't think this is a comment specifically relevant to today, rather it is part something that is innate in our social make up. From atheletes to actors at all levels they garner early on that they can slip by, a grade they don't really deserve, a speeding ticket becomes a warning when they are recognized on a college campus, a coke charge that drops to a misdemeanor whatever it is. Vick clearly learned somewhere that he was entitled to some kind of special treatment: look at his contract he can throw a pigskin far, fast and accurate and that is worth million upon millions of dollars. We as a society tell him that his skills are valued, excessively valued, more than a fireman who saves lives, a policeman who risks his life daily for our safety, a nurse who comforts the sick and disabled. I think that society gives these people who excel a sense of empowerment that they cant be held to the *standards* of mere mortals; that they are some how invincible and then is outraged when they behave that way.

I look to the foundations that people like Michael Vick were brought up with. I see a failure to parent effectively, I see a community who didn't make consequences a reality for gifted young men and women, I see a society who worships at the cult of excellence. I can only hope that Michael Vick will become a cautionary tale. I hope he will not allowed to slip by this one some how and I hope that this will help him rebuild his moral foundations so that he will be come a man of truth worth.

I also agree honesty and integrity are different. I believe you that these are taught by example. We reap what we sow in a certain sense. We must look to the collective whole that allows someone with so many gifts to get so far off track.
Regards
SD

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 8/24/2007 7:36:16 AM >

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to Stephann)
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