nephandi
Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline
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Greetings Master
quote:
What you try to take here is some sort of moral high ground that is based outside Gorean Philosophy, and then you commit the very sin that NOW has always committed. Anyone not in agreement with their statement of purpose must be a mysogenist, male chauvenist (a word they actually coined), or worse. It is rarely the case that the label is even half way accurate, but labeling has become such a factor in modern United States politics that most do not recognize it for what it is.
As i said Master one thing is the Gorean philosophy, anotherthy is those that do not live by that philosophy. You was the one that begun to speak of all women. And it have nothing to do whit you disagreeing whit me. i do not call Master Leonidas a mysogenist, nor Master Bull nor most on this forum, though many of them have opinions i disagree whit. i call somone that have said a woman can never have anything sensible to say a mysogenist, one that is saying that all women, not only the ones that follow the Gorean philosophy should be servants of men and shut up and that i being a mysogenist. Look up the dictionary Master.
quote:
He lost nearly every book publisher that he ever did business with due to feminist sentimentality through time.
Forgive me Master but i seriously doubt the femenists had much to do whit the books limited popularity nor the publishers not wanting them. During the 60's and 70's sience fiction was hard to sell, and un mainstream sience fiction like the Gor Saga. It lot it's publihers of the same reason many good, but unmainstream books loose theirs, money.
quote:
The feminists do not want this kind of information out in the world. It might throw some question onto their motives, and shed light upon the real truth of their message. Heaven for fend if men actually took Norman to heart, and chose to rise up and reclaim their rightful place in the natural order.
And what are the femenist motives? Yes some have gone completly the other way and hate men, but most just want women to be able to live their own lives. For women to be considered full pepole and not jut tools and toys for men. And i doubth most femenit organisation is afraide the men will read the Gor books and have an armed revulution. You see Master the number of men that want a world where women is nothing but servants are not that high, and the number of modern women that will let a man control them like that is even less. And in this day and age whit material arts training and weapons available to anyone that want it, for the men to reclaim the world, might be a little dificult.
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And, the problem with what most women want to say, especially to a man that they are associated with, is more of an attempt at emotional manipulation than not.
Both men and women manipulate one another, in fact in this sosiety half the time in any talk whit another human being there is manipulation involved. But that women is all manipulative and seek to trick the men whit every word...well you must know very different women than i do Master.
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Quite truely, most women are not aware of the extent that emotions play in their daily decision making. Most think that they are far less emotional than they are, and all are more emotional at times than they are at others.
This is true for any human being, man or women, emotions play into what we do, and not any more whit women than whit men. Yes women are often more moved, that female doctor mentioned before might actually care whatever you had a hearth attack and died while males have more easy to just see another patient, another number, but that do not make a woman's choice any less valid.
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Technically, Norman himself is the original chauvinist
No i think that would actually be Adam, that acording to legend ended up in the first marrige argument becouse hi first wife Lillith refued to be submissive to him. Seriously the term simply mean a man that is sexist, that do not think a woman i equal to a man in that case every Gorean is chauvenitic. Most are however quite proud of it.
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You are absolutely correct that I believe in absolutes, as does Norman, for the most part, in the context of the Gor books. Compromise is for the weak, not the strong. There have been far too many compromises with women through the course of time, and that has led us to what Norman assures us is a complete and total failure societally. Why, at that point would compromise with women be a good thing?
Why is this a failed osiety Master and how i it so? If one look at this soiety compared to 100 years ago, we live longer, we have more time to do things we like, we get sick less often, sure there are a few flaws, but compared to the lifetyle of my grandparents when they where young and their parents and theirs i think we live a pretty good life here in the West at least.
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I think, perhaps, you misunderstand where I am coming from. Under siege, no. Driven by principle, yes. I absolutely believe what Norman wrote into the books. Wavering even a degree off of that is to me a sacrifice of principle that I am unwilling to make. Now, there are any number of "Free Men" who disagree with that, but all that says to me is that they are willing to sacrifice principle for the sake of compromise, or for the sake of "fitting in", or because they want to be "accepted" by masses that I choose not to pay any form of lip-service to.
There are many things you say Master i am extremly oposed to. But i respect somone that follow their principle cost what it want. No matter what that principle is. It takes allot of charecter to walk ones own road and not care what others think of ones opinions or one choices, and i respect such steadfastness allot.
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By the definition of Feminism, as posted on the NOW website, you are a feminist. It is not my definition. It is actually the Feminists definition of themselves. All I do is restate how the Feminists actually define feminism. That is a really important point.
By Norweegian standards i am an equalist whit it comes to sexes. Not that i belive men and women are the same, but i belive a woman that want to be a doctor or a director or a fireman should be allowed to be so as long as she is as good as her male colleagues, i also think that men should have equal right whit women when it comes to children and that men that want to be nurses and seamsters and such should be allowed to be so if they are as good as their women colleuges.
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You, and others, are attempting to defend yourselves against the message, and in the process, you are saying that you are not a feminist, even though you fit the NOW description of feminism to a tee. You are saying that you have some pretty severe disagreement with what Norman wrote in the books, that, despite the fact, that you are on a Gorean list, and in many cases the persons registering the argument claim to be Goreans.
i am not trying to defend myself againt a message Master, i simply do not agree whit what you are saying or have inteprented the Gor books the same way you have., Nor do i think one philosophy are universally right for everyone. including the Gor philosophy. But what do i have to defend myelf against. Part of my religion is that there is no ultimate truth and that everyone should be free to think what they want, your opinion is not mine, but i am not against anyone having the opinion you do, nor speaking about it.
i do not know what NOW is but i am taking it is an American femenist organisation? whatever or not i would fit their description of a femenist, i do not know as i do not know of them.
The reason why me and Master is on the Gorean section of the Collarme forum is becouse that wile we do not agree whit everything, there are many parts of the Gorean philosophy we do like and find interesting. This is a place for good debate. We do not however claim to be Gorean.
quote:
Contrasted with the men that existed prior to the year 0, where men, in natural societies, such as Norman envisions on Gor, did take their status seriously, and did forge great civilizations by the strength of their swords.
Not all sosietie of the year 0 and before was like this Master. The Celsts had war queens and near equality when it came to right between the sexes. The Romans and the Greeks had powerful cult of priestesses that was very honered and had a high place in sosiety. In fact the totalitarian world you speak of have existed very few places. Yes in most of theese cultures men was leaders, but in most of them women to could gain much social power.
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Unfortunately, one cannot take that kind of thing, and make any kind of valid assertion at all. If anything, it shows proof positive that Norman's vision, unfettered, would be a much better solution to the troubles of mankind than the current society is.
i think i would prefer modern medecine (well if we did not have the thecnology of the priet Kings.), acsess to learning of a degree no sosiety before us ever had. To be able to live to be 80 and 90 and beyond in relative health. To be able to travel to another city in relative freedom and all the other gifts of modern sosiety to have to work all day in a fieald risk dying beofre 30 and be old before 40 to risk mortal danger everytime i went 5 minutes out of my home.
But that may be just me. i am an urban girl. i like my urban comforts and my books.
May i wish you well
_____________________________
Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad
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