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Enslaving an FC


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Enslaving an FC - 9/2/2007 5:20:46 PM   
akbarbarian


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If a woman is Gorean, and an FC, can she be put to the collar and the whip to make her a slave or does this differ IRL from the books.  Does anyone know of this being done?  I speak only of a Gorean FC, not a woman who doesn't believe in Gorean values.

< Message edited by akbarbarian -- 9/2/2007 5:22:28 PM >


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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/2/2007 5:40:15 PM   
ElizabethAnne


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Hello AkBarbarian,

And you said you've read how many of the books?   I'm sitting here scratching my head in wonderment.  

I wish you enlightenment and luck, you need both I think.

Liz

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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/2/2007 5:46:58 PM   
fyreOmega


Posts: 158
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Greetings,

Perhaps you may care to read fyres Master's words.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_1183127/mpage_3/key_/tm.htm#1244266

well wishes

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/2/2007 6:13:21 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline
Hello, folks,

Evening, Charles,

quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian
If a woman is Gorean, and an FC, can she be put to the collar and the whip to make her a slave


Any woman who seeks the company of a Gorean man has a choice -- comply with his wishes or leave his company. If the result of her choice is to comply, he may then guide, direct & encourage her as his free companion, submissive to him to whatever degree he finds pleasing. He may lay whip upon her, or lock collar about her throat, as a disciplinary measure. However, she is still free, because he has not chosen to master her.

If, however, the result of her compliance is that he exercises mastery over her, in time resulting in her enslavement, then she becomes a slave. If he never places a collar on her neck or lays a whip to her flesh, she is still a slave. The collar, whip, brand or community's acceptance do not make a woman into a slave. A man does that, through his active, consistent mastery of her.

As tough as this may sound, & as much as some would seek to evade the weight of this responsibility, the man's ACTIONS define himself, his life, & his relationship with his woman. His words insisting that it is something that his actions have not proven to be so, only make him less credible. His reliance on external symbols of a wished-for internal condition to "prove" that wish to be "fact" is an action that leads logically to one conclusion -- the sole element necessary is still missing -- Mastery.

One does not find one's own mastery in the thoughts, suggestions or preferences of others. Look within, or stop looking at all.

I wish you well,

~Kimveri




_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/2/2007 6:22:04 PM   
akbarbarian


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These are interesting responses, and it's a good point that a Gorean FC might still be disciplined.  In the books I've read, there is alot of "whisper whisper what if that male slave was to overpower you and try to put a collar on you?  He is so strong, what would it be like?" and they gasp at how it's obcene, and fearsome, but erotic as well.  Up to book 15, I don't recall as much about an actual living situation with an FC being described just the general outline of the concept.

_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/2/2007 10:31:11 PM   
rmanrr


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Greetings
Let us see here...hmmm.... ok akbarbarian...I know you claim to have read the books. But your words do not prove that assertion. Kimveri, bravo. My FC and I are in the first month of our pairing...and we are still exploring what wonders that entails. In time she may evolve into something else but right now she fits My values, life and ideas to a T. I can not predict the future but as an educated guess I would say things for the forseeable future look bright indeed.


_____________________________

Be Well, Be Careful

Jarl Rmanrr

"the road untravelled is the loneliest." Me
Courage...the ability to overcome obstacles during the course.
"to be insane is to be original!"...Me

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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 1:22:54 AM   
akbarbarian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rmanrr

Greetings
Let us see here...hmmm.... ok akbarbarian...I know you claim to have read the books. But your words do not prove that assertion. Kimveri, bravo. My FC and I are in the first month of our pairing...and we are still exploring what wonders that entails. In time she may evolve into something else but right now she fits My values, life and ideas to a T. I can not predict the future but as an educated guess I would say things for the forseeable future look bright indeed.


There are no stupid questions, only stupid people who don't ask them, and stupid people who call stupidity towards those who are smart enough to know they aren't all knowing and decide to ask them.  I've read 15 of the books over the past eight years, so what?  That doesn't mean I have all the answers, and this is a not very important philosophical discussion.  Enjoy it, or not, but respect my right to ask without implying that I am a liar.  Congratulations on your new realtionship with your FC. 

_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 5:55:04 AM   
nephandi


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Greetings Master

In this our real world, if a male slave used his physical strength to overpower and enslave his Mistress, that is considered kidnapping. Slavery in this world are consensual. What would happen in the Gor bookss if a male slave did something like that? Well if he managed to brake the bonds of slavery and flee to somwere he could be free and take his captor whit him and make her a slave, i think he would be aplauded. This however is not Gor and unless the former Mistress consents, whatever he do to her against her will is rape and quite punishable by the law.

i would agree whit you however Master that there are no stupid questions, if one do not know one should ask.

As for your question Mistress Kimveri said it well when he said that a Gorean woman have two options, become what her man demands or leave. Yes on Gor she would not have the option of leaving, however on Earth i would say she thankfully do. Also in the Gor setting to there was laws as to how a woman might be enslaved. You could for exsample not just pick a woman in your city and enslave her for no reason, and I think there are rules to to if a Free man can enslave his Free comanion.

To finish the reply of Master. Most Gorean Free woman i know would accept slavery to their Free companion if he choose to, so yes a man can enslave his Free companion, if she is willing, otherwise she can always leave.

May i wish you well




_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 7:00:50 AM   
fyreOmega


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fyre would beg you Sir to please read the books...again...

quote:

this is a not very important philosophical discussion.


FC is the equivilant to earth Marriage

well wishes


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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 8:12:25 AM   
rmanrr


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Greetings
In My opinion fyre, the FC is far more than the equivalent of "Marriage". More powerful, deeper, and with a renewal clause built in besides. heh heh. akbarbarian...I did not hint that you were a liar....I merely stated that indeed if you have read the books than you certainly have 1. not read all of them (which you do say), 2. it must have been a long time ago (because recent readings of them do not provide Me with the same sorts of questions), 3. you seem to take offense where none was intended...suck it up and move on.
I have made other posts and gotten flamed as well, but I continue to learn from people I respect here. I am guessing you are still searching for your defining passages and ideas in your becoming Gorean. I wish you well in your quest.


_____________________________

Be Well, Be Careful

Jarl Rmanrr

"the road untravelled is the loneliest." Me
Courage...the ability to overcome obstacles during the course.
"to be insane is to be original!"...Me

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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 8:17:51 AM   
nephandi


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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Gretings Master

i hope my question will not be offensive. But why would a Free Companionship be more deep and meaningful than another type of marrige? i understand that it would be so for a Gorean, but i do not think it is universally true. i for exsample as a Pagan would find more meaning in a Handfasting, a Pagan wedding, and having a mate in the Pagan sence than I would in a Gorean Free Companionship. Now i am not Free. But i would think the marrige pratice of eatch sosiety has the most meaning to the members of that sosiety.

May i wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 8:28:18 AM   
fyreOmega


Posts: 158
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greetings Master Rmanrr,

Yes Master, she understands the concept.Her Owner has a FC and instills the concepts within His chains' brains and heart.

she was trying to post respectfully and wihtin boundries of what is considered correct protocol in what a girl may  or may not state and how it would be 'seen'

this statement was all she could type while sitting on her hands to not 'type off'

well wishes

< Message edited by fyreOmega -- 9/3/2007 8:43:33 AM >

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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 11:22:19 AM   
RedDragonFreehol


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From: Denver, Colorado
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Tal Kimveri,

Alas, on this globe, we are faced with the undeniable fact that in some women the socialization that they have gone through trumps anything a man can do, without facing imprisonment, to Master her. Quite frankly, there are any number of kajira wannabes in the Gorean world here on Earth that, were this Gor, would have been thrown to the urts long ago. They change Masters like earth women change their underwear, constantly seeking Mr. Good Master, the one man who they can charm into giving them what they want, which is a situation where they are really the ones in charge, and the Master is Master in name only. They are not the exception to the rule, they are the rule, and along the way, they cause any number of problems of a legal and financial nature to the Free Men who they encounter.

Even when you find a slave who is mostly willing to submit, and you work it out so that the two of you have most of the trappings of a Master/slave relationship, it ends up being the result of manifold compromises, and the end result is not that of the Master and slave, but more along the lines of the Free Companionship. Why these women are then claimed as slaves is one of life's great mysteries. For a slavery to be a Gorean slavery, it must, by definition, be uncompromising. She must have no choices, or as close to no choices as can be arranged for her.

This namby pamby "consentual slavery" concept is one that has been brought to the Gorean world from the old D/s camp, along with the idea that if a man is "strong" enough that the woman will swoon like some character in a dime romance novel. Not the most realistic assumption in my experience, and fraught with all manner of Earth based BS that contributes to so many girls seeking fantasy fullfillment with no understanding of what a truely non-consentual state true Gorean slavery is.

The truth of the matter is that what Norman was speaking about was real slavery in a society where a man could severely punish, or even kill, a kajira who was not pleasing, and he is asserting that this is the natural place for women. Faced with no other alternative than to be pleasing or die, any women will seek to be pleasing, but if you allow them sufficient rope, by not limiting those "rights" that they have under the laws of this sphere, you will never approach a true "Gorean" slavery. First, and foremost, the woman must have no rights. No matter how strong a man is, as long as those rights exist, the woman will continue to exercise those rights that remain in an effort at testing the system.

It would be nice if this was just my opinion, but instead it is information that has been gleaned through 25+ years livng as a Gorean in the "real world", having encountered this behavior in numerous slaves through time, having had to fight many of these slings and arrows personally, or having witnessed, first hand, these things in play in the houses of other Goreans that I have been acquainted with.

First, and foremost, you must provide an environment where real Gorean slavery can flourish, and an environment where the Free Man is protected should a girl fail. This is where most Masters fail. It is not a failure of the man personally, but a failure to put the necessary things in place to limit the girl to only a few predictable choices that can then be dealt with.

The problem is that while every woman has the potenial to be a slave, it takes an external society, supporting that natural position, to guarantee it. That is why the Gorean Philosophy has been labeled as a Reactionary Natural Philosophy. By definition, Reactionary philosophies advocate a turning back, or a turning away. Throughout the philosophy is the understanding that only a society that supports and nurtures the natural within men and women will put to rights the current unnatural status that women have achieved, that the current society is one that does not in any way nurture the nature within us, and that this must change in order for mankind to regain his place within the Natural Order. It is not an either/or. Rather it is a situation where both strong men, and a supportive society are required to achieve uncompromising slavery as a status for women. Either is insufficient when standing alone, and the best that we can do on this sphere is severely limit the legal status of the woman in an attempt at providing an approximation of the environment in an effort at nurturing that slave within her.

Be well,

Master Omega

_____________________________

Omega
Master of Red Dragon Freehold
Chairman of the High Council
Colorado Gorean Society

www.coloradogoreans.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coloradogoreans

www.fraternalorderofgoreans.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fraternalorde

(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 12:03:25 PM   
RedDragonFreehol


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Tal nephandi,

The Free Companionship is based on hand-fasting. Marriage in the Gorean world, at least from the purely philosophical standpoint does not exist, and it does not exist because of what it has become in Western Civilization with its roots in the Christian idealism, and the unnatural state of monogamy. What is natural is the idea that a strong man would gather together as many women as he could protect, ensuring that his genes would be as widely disseminated as possible, and thereby ensuring the survival of the strongest human beings that nature could produce.

If you look to the books, you will find that all the major feast days within the Gorean ethos are placed on solstices and equinoxes, and that the calendar is based on sun and moon cycles. Even the names for the feast days are reminiscent of the old natural structures.....Sa Tarna, for instance, a feast day that is clearly one of thanks for the grain that brings life. Even the ritual of sacrificing grain to the Homestone, as described in Book 1, is clearly derived from Roman, Celtic, and Germanic harvest rituals.

Norman chose only pre-Christian societies to populate Gor, and I do not believe that this was an error. It is clearly, within Earth history, the point at which Europe embraced Christianity that mankind diverged from the path of nature, and began thinking of himself as being "created" in the imaged of "God", and above all the rest of the natural world. You can see Norman's actual take on Christianity by the manner in which he painted the Initiates, and it is most telling in Book 9 where he flatly states:

-----Begin Quote

Initiates often used their influence and their gold, and pressures on trade and goods, to spread their
beliefs and rituals. Sometimes a Chieftain, converted to their ways, would enforce his own
commitments on his subordinates. Indeed, this was not unusual. Too, often, a chief's conversion
would bring with it, even without force, those of his people who felt bound to him in loyalty.
Sometimes, too, the religion of the Priest-Kings, under the control of the Initiates, utilizing secular
rulers, was propagated by fire and sword.

Sometimes those who insisted on retaining the old ways, or were caught making the sign of the fist
of the hammer, over their ale were subjected to death by torture. One that I had heard of had been
boiled alive in one of the great sunken wood-lined tubs in which meat was boiled for retainers. The
water is heated by placing rocks, taken from a fire, into the water. When the rock has been in the
water, it is removed with a rake and then reheated. Another had been roasted alive on a spit over a
long fire. It was said that he did not utter a sound. Another was slain when an adder forced into his
mouth tore its way free through the side of his face.

---------End Quote

Which clearly hearkens back to the very same things that were done to those practicing the old beliefs during the Middle Ages, both at the level of their Kings, and to individuals under various "inquisitions". (Note that I do not use the word Pagan because that was a term that was coined by Catholocism to malign, and categorize, all of those who practiced a natural belief, whether that was Wiccan, Druid, or the dozens of others that graced the Earth for centuries prior to the rise of Christianity.)

Norman goes on to state:

--------Begin Quote

The initiates are an almost universal, well-organized, industrious caste. They have many
monasteries, holy places and temples. An initiate may often travel for hundreds of pasangs, and,
each night, find himself in a house of initiates. They regard themselves as the highest caste, and in
many cities, are so regarded generally.

There is often a tension between them and the civil authorities, for each regards himself as supreme
in matters of policy and law for their district. The initiates have their own laws, and courts, and
certain of them are well versed in the laws of the initiates.

Their education, generally, is of little obvious practical value, with its attention to authorized
exegeses of dubious, difficult texts, purporting to be revelations of Priest-Kings, the details and
observances of their own calendars, their interminable involved rituals and so on, but paradoxically,
this sort of learning, impractical though it seems, has a subtle practical aspect. It tends to bind
initiates together, making them interdependent, and muchly different from common men. It sets
them apart, and makes them feel important and wise, and specially privileged.

There are many texts, of course, which are secret to the caste, and not even available to scholars
generally. In these it is rumoured there are marvelous spells and mighty magic, particularly if read
backwards on certain feast days.

Whereas initiates tend not to be taken with great seriousness by the high castes, or the more
intelligent members of the population, except in matters of political alliance, their teachings and
purported ability to intercede with Priest-Kings, and further the welfare of their adherents, is taken
with great seriousness by many of the lower castes. And many men, who suspect that the initiates,
in their claims and pretensions, are frauds, will nonetheless avoid coming into conflict with the
caste. This is particularly true of civil leaders who do not wish the power of the initiates to turn the
lower castes against them.

---------End Quote

Such being the situation in the US today where no politician can get elected to office without the support of the Christian Right. Norman was nothing, if not prophetic, but truly this has been the case since the beginning of the society. All throughout US history there has been a support for the idea of the seperation of church and state, while all the while politicians have been pandering to the various Christian groups within the framework of the society.

And then Norman drives the points home with this:

---------Begin Quote

Incidentally, it is a teaching of the initiates that only initiates can obtain eternal life. The regimen
for doing this has something to do with learning mathematics, and with avoiding the impurities of
meat and beans. This particular teaching of the initiates, it is interesting to note, is that least taken
seriously by the general population. The Gorean feeling generally is that there is no reason why
initiates or only initiates, should live forever. Initiates, though often feared by lower castes, are also
regarded as being a bit odd, and often figure in common, derisive jokes. No female, incidentally,
may become an Initiate. It is a consequence, thusly, that no female can obtain eternal life.

I have often thought that the Initiates, if somewhat more clever, could have a much greater power
than they posses on Gor. For example, if they could fuse their superstitions and lore, and myths,
with a genuine moral message of one sort or another, they might appeal more seriously to the
general population: if they spoke more sense people would be less sensitive to, or disturbed by, the
nonsense; further, they should teach that all Goreans might, by following their rituals, obtain
eternal life; that would broaden the appeal of their message, and subtly utilize the fear of death to
further their projects; lastly, they should make greater appeal to women than they do, for, in most
Gorean cities, women, of one sort or another, care for and instruct the children in the crucial first
years. That would be the time to imprint them, while innocent and trusting, at the mother's or
nurse's knee, with superstitions which might, in simpler brains, subtly control them the length of
their lives.

--------End Quote

Where Norman, quite literally, calls religious belief a superstition, and paints a very telling portrait of Christianity, specifically, but it really applies to all of those religions, including Islam, that are derived from the belief in the God of Abraham. Couple a moral message to a concept of afterlife, and then indoctrinate the children so that it can control them the length of their days. Which, is exactly what Christianity, Islam, and Judaism do.

There are too many in the Gorean world who would gloss over these passages, and choose to ignore them so that they can retain a degree of irrationality, that despite Norman's manifold references to Darwinian concepts and the idea that first, and foremost, a Gorean should be rational. Worse yet, they try equating similarities within the Gorean Philosophy to various religious concepts, concepts that in some cases even bear the same name (Honor is one that immediately comes to mind), without seeming to realize that the underpinning ideas that frame the similar concepts are completely based on seperate paradigms.

Be well,

Master Omega

_____________________________

Omega
Master of Red Dragon Freehold
Chairman of the High Council
Colorado Gorean Society

www.coloradogoreans.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coloradogoreans

www.fraternalorderofgoreans.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fraternalorde

(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 12:42:08 PM   
RedDragonFreehol


Posts: 569
Joined: 1/12/2005
From: Denver, Colorado
Status: offline
Tal,

I think that some are missing the point that you were getting at. Granted, you could have stated it better....

In the real world of the Gorean Society here on Earth, no, most Free Companions could not be put in a collar, and whipped, and made a slave. Within the Gorean Philosophy, that is both a possibility, and with respect to what happened on the fictional planet Gor, a reality. Women could be enslaved for being displeasing. That was the entire point of the references in the Court of Shendi to the Free Man who came to the court seeking to have his Free Companionship annulled. He was whipped from the court in the garb of a woman because he had not controlled his Companion, and she was sentenced to a year in the public brothel (just one example of temporary enslavement as punishment in the Gor books) so that she could learn to be pleasing. Free Companions, in theory, if they were displeasing, and failed to correct their behavior after a night on the cold stones, could be enslaved. Look to the section in Book 11, where the Free Companion of the headman of the Peasants was enslaved after she attempted to poison him.

The fact that it cannot be done, in most cases, on this globe points to very real problems with the Gorean Society on this globe, and the degree, or lack thereof, to which the Gorean Philosophy has actually been internalized and applied in real time. Quite rationally, there is no reason, what-so-ever, why a Free Companion could not be put under the whip, collared, and stripped of her freedom. But, most of the "Free Women" have not internalized this to the degree necessary for them to be accepting of it. They want to claim the Gorean Society, but they do not want to accept the responsibility for being truly Gorean. What hollow shell of Goreanness is there that would put them at a point where they did not understand that the very decision to make the claim of being a Free Woman, companioned to a Gorean Free Man, might, at some future point, entail his absolute right to put her in chains at his feet if he so desired?

It would be convenient to think that this was all the women, but truth be told, most of the men who claim the Gorean Society are of a similar ilk. They do not, or cannot, internalize the ideals to a point where they can truly enslave a woman, and make for her an uncompromising slavery, and they have little or no control on their Free Companions, when they have Free Companions.

Understand that this comes from a point of reference that many cannot claim. I have actually forced slavery on a Free Woman. When she came to me, she was of the opinion that she was not a slave, but a year in, she was acting more and more slave-like, so I put her at my feet by her hair, told her she was now the slave maliha, and put a collar on her neck. She is now my First Girl, and has been with me for over 3 years.

What this goes to show is that when people embrace the philosophy, understand the philosophy, and truly live the philosophy, then they understand the possible outcomes of their choices, and are willing to accept those outcomes as the natural repercussion of those choices. Maliha knew that there was a chance of her enslavement, accepted that that was the case, and accepted when it fell upon her. I, for my part, did what needed to be done. She was a slave, so I did what a Free Man would naturally do with a slave.

Don't think for one minute that I did not take a lot of heat for that very Gorean choice. There were all manner of people who told me that what I had done was "not Gorean on Earth", or "illegal", there were some that even questioned the morality of the decision, while loudly voiceing the mythical credo of the "consentual slavery". All that really goes to show is how many true Goreans there are, and how many there are not. IF it falls within the philosophy, and it is Gorean to do, and you are claiming yourself to be a Gorean, then you should be accepting of all of the parameters, not just the ones that you feel comfortable with. To be otherwise is to make the claim of being Gorean, without the backbone to sustain it.

How much a Free Woman could a Free Woman be if she turns around and says something to the effect of "but I would leave if you ever enslaved me"? How much a Free Man could a Free Man be who would accept such a statement from a woman? My response to such a woman would be to show her the door, and wish her a nice life. She has no place in the Gorean world, nor do those men who cannot seem to enforce their masculinity on the few true Gorean women who do exist.

Be well,

Omega

_____________________________

Omega
Master of Red Dragon Freehold
Chairman of the High Council
Colorado Gorean Society

www.coloradogoreans.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coloradogoreans

www.fraternalorderofgoreans.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fraternalorde

(in reply to akbarbarian)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 1:11:42 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline
Afternoon, folks,

Hello, Omega,

While I can agree with much of what you suggest as secondary methods of reinforcing a master’s absolute authority over a slavegirl, I cannot agree with using these methods as the sole means by which he accomplishes her enslavement. I firmly hold that his unique, active mastery is the primary driving force. That may or may not be supplemented by other secondary external reinforcers but I do not think they should be presented as ‘necessary’, by any means.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omega
That is why the Gorean Philosophy has been labeled as a Reactionary Natural Philosophy.


I understand the separate terms you use here, such as:

1) reactionary – turning back to a prior method or manner, particularly in a cultural sense, often describing a resistance to social progress, growth or change.

With this term, my issue is that there’s no better time than now. Considering the benefits we now enjoy on nearly every front of human existence, I see little serious impediment to adding the opportunity for enslavement to that list of benefits an individual may choose, if such is what fulfills them.

I also find this term gut-deep repulsive in that it suggests the individuals craving power/authority are unable to attain it on their own merit in the current cultural atmosphere. They react to that impotence with a desire for a time when their meager natural authority was augmented by a more authoritarian social structure.

2) natural {as used in the term ‘natural philosophy’} – linked inextricably to naturalism, which negates the existence of anything that cannot be empirically studied &/or proven via scientific methodology.

I have few issues with Naturalism {aka Natural Philosophy}, but the few I have are rather fundamental. It limits the scope of reality to only what is empirically supported. I have witnessed, in my own lifetime, science itself broaden that scope to include things previously considered implausible if not completely unrealistic. I prefer to maintain an open mind, & entertain the notion that there is more beyond my ken than I might imagine. I find it an element of freedom to believe that little is denied me, with sufficient effort & time.

I have, however, never seen all three terms used as you have used them, capped & strung together, amongst the recognized leaders in the field of philosophy. It is not a recognized category, classification or appellation for a specific discipline of philosophy.

Of course, you can string the various terms together to create a categorization that suits you personally, but that does not make it universal, nor the epitome of living Gorean.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Omega
The truth of the matter is that what Norman was speaking about was real slavery in a society where a man could severely punish, or even kill, a kajira who was not pleasing, and he is asserting that this is the natural place for women.


This is your opinion of what JN was speaking about. I will merely suggest that this is not as absolute as you posit, & that other living Goreans, as well as the author himself, might not share this opinion. I have a serious reluctance to embrace absolutes. They often prove to be rather unrealistic. Truthfully, the crux of our difference here may well be found in the definition of the term “real slavery”.

Of course, that’s fodder for another thread altogether, neh? ;-D

I wish you well,

~Kimveri


_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to RedDragonFreehol)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 3:05:08 PM   
littlebitxxx


Posts: 732
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: akbarbarian

If a woman is Gorean, and an FC, can she be put to the collar and the whip to make her a slave or does this differ IRL from the books.  Does anyone know of this being done?  I speak only of a Gorean FC, not a woman who doesn't believe in Gorean values.


Greetings to all,
To get back to the OP's original question as it is written, and from an FC's point of view:  I won't quote books nor write 14 pages of philosophical psycho-stuff  but can only explain my opinion from my own real life point of view and interpretation of the books.  As an FC, and because I am an FC, I can, have and will continue to, submit or defer to my FC's better judgment as the situation calls for it.  As an FC, I am not collared nor put to the whip but maintain the right to speak my mind, have my opinion heard and participate in decisions with my man, all the while I am taking care of him and our home and serving him as a woman should.  I can maintain my status in the "outer" world as a FW/FC of the healer caste.   I may be submissive to my man in some respects but I am definitely not submissive to others in the same way.  Should someday down the road I decide to perform the Rites of Submission, I will expect to be collared by him if he will accept my offer (and if that happens I certainly hope he does because he is a warrior) and become totally submissive to his will.  That does not necessarily mean I will fall into instant slavery like a kajira knows because I will still have my protector and Jarl of our Home Stone.  If I show slave tendencies once collared to him all the better; if it develops that a hard-core Master/slave relationship now holds, fine.   There are many levels to submission and slavery and  it is completely up to the two FC's involved as to how the relationship develops.  That's what is so fascinating about living Gorean:  it has the basics to draw from but also open to the reader's/liver's interpretation of the details.

The other way I interpret the OP's question is that, if I've read correctly, an FC can be captured and enslaved.  Mind you, it would be at great risk to his health and well-being if the family has any say of it.

I mean no disrespect to anyone who reads, studies and analyzes the writings and is able to convert it into plain English for the rest of us.  I find your posts to be quite educational for many reasons.

Love and light,
sage

_____________________________

There is no such thing as can't unless it is followed by yet

It is the meaningless little acts that become meaningful in the doing.

The people that mind don't matter and the people that matter don't mind.

(in reply to akbarbarian)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 6:26:55 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
Greetings littlebit,

Rites of Submission? Did I miss something or have I just not gotten to the book that has this in it?

Tal Omega,

If the FW did not exert her Freewill and use the legal system, then she very well did consent, so the ones that took some moral high ground against your actions are just wrong.

Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to littlebitxxx)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 10:48:52 PM   
akbarbarian


Posts: 596
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline
This is purely, purely hypothetical, but let's say a Gorean man knew of a Gorean female (on earth).  How well do you suppose "capturing" her would go, assuming they didn't know each other well or at all beforehand?

_____________________________

Out and proud as a dominant male
United we stand!
Also:Not a service top!
Heretic of Gor

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Enslaving an FC - 9/3/2007 10:56:55 PM   
RedDragonFreehol


Posts: 569
Joined: 1/12/2005
From: Denver, Colorado
Status: offline
Tal Kimveri,

I never said that they were primary or secondary methods. They are mearly what is required to put a girl in an environment as close to Gor on this Earth as is possible under current law.

That would be the dictionary definition, but you really need to look at that definition to see the flaws it presents. Not everyone agrees that the direction of any given society is necessarily progress. In point of fact, we Goreans see the current direction of the society into ever more unnatural channels as a regression with respect to evolution, natural selection, and the general overall evolutionary strength of humanity, and it certainly does not contribute to any sort of natural growth. It would be accurate to say that Goreans oppose change that leads to a condition where mankind, either as a whole, or as individuals ends up in an unnatural state. But, in that we are actually for true natural progress, and for true natural growth in human beings. Unfortunately, the "civil rights" that are viewed as progress and growth from the standpoint of the external society are the very failure of that society that Norman so aptly points out in the books. Civil righst are an unnatural state. What is natural is men earning an equal place in society based upon merit, not having it given to them. What is natural for women is to be enslaved, truly enslaved, not the fantasy romance of "consentual slavery".

The Gorean Philosophy is not about fullfilling individuals. It is about fullfilling Nature, and the Natural Order. Now, I do believe that people who are living within the Natural Order will be fullfilled as individuals, but the individual is not the objective, and that points out a very fundamental difference between how we Goreans see the world as opposed to how humanists see the world. What you present here are some of the very flawed humanist arguments that Norman himself disproved using valid logical argument within the text of the the 26 Gor novels.

I have but one question for you. If you cannot support any of the actual tenets of the Gorean Philosophy, and would instead challenge them with humanist and feminist rhetoric, why are you here on a Gorean board?

Be well,

Master Omega

_____________________________

Omega
Master of Red Dragon Freehold
Chairman of the High Council
Colorado Gorean Society

www.coloradogoreans.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/coloradogoreans

www.fraternalorderofgoreans.com
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fraternalorde

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 20
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