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"Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 12:01:08 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		G'morning, folks,

I keep encountering statements to the effect that a kajira without a collar is a Gorean Free Woman. This confuses me. In speaking with Un on this, I posed a question that he felt might promote thought & thus was worthy of posting. The question is as follows:

Is a kajirus without a collar a Gorean Free Man?

I keep thinking it can't be that easy to be a Free Gorean.

I wish you all well,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 12:30:50 PM   
Rule


Posts: 8016
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		The spirit of the free woman or free man needs to depart from the mind of the natural slave to cause the slave to be born. Death and rebirth. It will not happen out in the wild. An owner to look out for the slave is required.

(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 12:36:48 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
Tal Kimveri,

If a "person" is unowned, they are free, nothing complicated about that, they are in fact to be held self-accountable.

This past weekend I sat around a fire with a good number of Gorean men. I have attend my fair share of Gorean gatherings, I have sat in the home of Unbuilder himself and to this day I have yet to meet or have read about an actual Gorean man that would willingly surrender his freedom.

Perhaps the question should be. Have you ever truly met a kajirus?

Try to remember this, being submissive is a natural condition, to be enslaved requires a leash-holder(owner).

Live well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 12:42:09 PM   
AdiraSpice


Posts: 38
Status: offline 		Hello Kimveri,

The way I have always understood this concept, is that it is a wide chasm to leap from one to the other in the matter of protocol and expected behaviors and the Free Man determines which way one leaps be it Free or collar.

A Free Woman is a Mistress and Free Men have allowed the woman in question this status.

Just as a girl that wishes to become a slave needs a Man to grant her the status of slave.
A girl with the heart and belly of a slave should at least attempt somewhat to carry herself in the manner of a female that is courting a collar and does not act with the expected behaviors of a Mistress.

Since we do not have the Voyages of Aquisition ongoing here,perhaps we do in a manner of speaking ,as a girl that is putting of those 'slave girl' signals would be watched and then taken and find themselves owned by a Gorean Male.

The woman that is Free acting, or a Free Companion, or has been released from a Master's collar to have her freedom, will be accepted by the Free Men, with the status she would be best suited for naturally and it all falls into living life to the best of ones ability by what is deemed natural in their place within Gorean Society. 

Perhaps a nominally Free status for those with no collar,heh?

Laughs,leaves the whole kajirus matter alone as attempts at understanding submissive Men have failed.

*Thinking on books 14-16, specifically, the writing of the Flower and the Lion.

*I was already beaten to the reminder of Tarl in book 6 becoming Bosk.I always did have trouble with that one as it was not a natural state for him.

Be Well

< Message edited by AdiraSpice -- 10/4/2007 1:00:06 PM >

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 12:53:05 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 781
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Afternoon, Bull,

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
If a "person" is unowned, they are free...


Perhaps such a person is "free", & perhaps not. "Ownership" is something that I believe arises from enslavement, which arises from mastery, but that whole process is a different topic.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
to this day I have yet to meet or have read about an actual Gorean man that would willingly surrender his freedom.


You mean besides Tarl Cabot, in the rence marshes?

Either way, that's not the question. We can be sure that there are kajirae of the female sort. Does the removal of their collars make them Gorean Free Women?

quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx
Try to remember this, being submissive is a natural condition, to be enslaved requires a leash-holder(owner).


No need to encourage my memory on that account, it's something I've been saying for nearly a decade. However, I use the term "master" instead of "owner" as reality reduces "ownership" to a figurative term.

Well wishes,

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 12:59:48 PM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Kim

The answer to your question can be a bit confusing.  Though I think of it this way.

A slave is someone owned.   This means someone who is not owned is free.

The question becomes, are they part of the Gorean free?  Hummm I would have to say that they would have to be and do all those things expected of a person claiming to be Gorean before they can be recognized as Gorean.  Simply being the past (or future) slave of a Gorean is not enough to qualify you.

So, is she free, yes, but is she a Gorean Free woman, well she will have to prove that one on her own.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 1:36:34 PM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AdiraSpice
*I was already beaten to the reminder of Tarl in book 6 becoming Bosk.I always did have trouble with that one as it was not a natural state for him.


What is a "natural state" for any organism?  Given the diversity of conditions Homo sapiens can adapt under, and the diversity of effective behavioral strategies for survival and gene transmission, I'd have to say that it looks like a pretty wide spectrum for the species and in most cases for the individual organism.

(in reply to AdiraSpice)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 1:52:05 PM   
AdiraSpice


Posts: 38
Status: offline 		Hello Najakcharmer,

I do not consider decisions made under duress to be natural. There is a quantifier that helps,therefore, it would not be the decision made naturally, rationally or logically.

I would think there are things I would do with a gun held to my head that I would not do under any other free thinking circumstance.
Then again I may very well say go ahead shoot.
All depends when and if I fnd myself in a life or death situation.

The point is Tarl was not submissive by nature or personality even though He had yet climbed to the heights of Goreannness that he acheived after book 9. Perhaps he needed both ends of the spectrum to get him there

Be well

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 2:06:06 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AdiraSpice

I do not consider decisions made under duress to be natural.


That would make most of nature unnatural, and much- if not most- of what goes on in the books would also be unnatural by that standard. Unless you mean to reinvent the word to have an entirely different meaning in your world, your statement does not fly, or at least does not bear any semblance to depicting reality and nature, where duress is a common and natural occurence, with natural consequences.

quote:


There is a quantifier that helps,therefore, it would not be the decision made naturally, rationally or logically.


Perhaps you mean to say it would not be the decision made in a vacuum?

quote:


I would think there are things I would do with a gun held to my head that I would not do under any other free thinking circumstance.


Which would be a natural response, as pointed out in the instance with Tarl.

quote:


The point is Tarl was not submissive by nature or personality even though He had yet climbed to the heights of Goreannness that he acheived after book 9. Perhaps he needed both ends of the spectrum to get him there


That could be debated, but here is not the place for it.

Kim asked a legitimate question, one which Jahna alone has come close to answering so far.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to AdiraSpice)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 3:08:38 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

Perhaps such a person is "free", & perhaps not. "Ownership" is something that I believe arises from enslavement, which arises from mastery, but that whole process is a different topic.


We could hash over terminoligy and its practical applications for a lifetime and yet the facts will remain. No owner, no slave; you can debate the symantics that establish ownership under law, mastery or force but the  heart of the matter remains the same.

quote:


You mean besides Tarl Cabot, in the rence marshes?


Surely you don't intend to use an example of Tarl exchanging his honor for his life in comparision with these pencildicks that eagerly surrender their freedoms for a wiggle of their willy in some sweet little waterhole.

quote:


Either way, that's not the question. We can be sure that there are kajirae of the female sort. Does the removal of their collars make them Gorean Free Women?


I reserve the right to determine with my own eyes that I will call Gorean. Now to save having a tone equally as condescending as yours I'll leave that where it stands.

quote:


No need to encourage my memory on that account, it's something I've been saying for nearly a decade. However, I use the term "master" instead of "owner" as reality reduces "ownership" to a figurative term.


You say potato.....................

Live well,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 10/4/2007 3:18:45 PM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 3:32:45 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

G'morning, folks,

I keep encountering statements to the effect that a kajira without a collar is a Gorean Free Woman. This confuses me. In speaking with Un on this, I posed a question that he felt might promote thought & thus was worthy of posting. The question is as follows:

Is a kajirus without a collar a Gorean Free Man?

I keep thinking it can't be that easy to be a Free Gorean.

I wish you all well,

~Kimveri


Tal Kim,

No. 

On Earth, the prevailing culture does not normally produce Gorean Free Men and Women.  It produces men and women of Earth.  I am not even going to try to define the difference here, but I believe there is a profound difference between a Gorean Free Person here on Earth, and the typical man or woman of Earth.

If a kajirus here on Earth were freed, he would not be likely to have the attributes of a Gorean Free Man on Earth.  He would probably just be a man of Earth.

The same applies for a kajira.  She does not automatically become a Gorean Free Woman on Earth if she is unowned.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 10/4/2007 3:38:31 PM >

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 3:33:23 PM   
donnaamarie


Posts: 335
Joined: 9/7/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress Kimveri,

I will speak only from the station of kajira.  I believe that a slave without a collar is merely an unowned slave.  That of course argues the point that without an owner someone is not a slave, for to be a slave one must be enslaved.  We can go further and say that a girl who calls herself slave is enslaved by her own needs and desires to be owned.  We have even used the words "deeply submissive" when speaking of an unowned slave.  Is it merely a matter of semantics?  I believe so, in many cases.  I do not believe that the removal of a collar makes a girl any less slave then one who is owned.  To me she is merely a slave waiting for her next Owner.

donnamarie - property of Ubar John

_____________________________

Life is not about waiting for storms to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain.

(in reply to Kimveri)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 3:40:18 PM   
angharad


Posts: 229
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings donnaamarie,

I don't agree with you.  I wanted to be a slave before I was collared, I thought myself a excellent potential slave as I was beset by needs to submit.  I was arrogant and wrong.

I wasnt able to be the slave I am without my Owner.  To me it is quite simple, a slave cannot be herself without an owner.  That state of being a slave is not attainable by the woman on her own.  She may want desperately for it, but she does not possess it.   The state of being the slave you suspect you are, is a response to the mastery over you. 

That said, it is purely my thought on it and as im tired, it may be a little blunter than I intend :)

I wish you a good evening

angharad

(in reply to donnaamarie)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 3:44:38 PM   
favesclava


Posts: 1574
Joined: 2/15/2007
Status: offline 		i agree. it was His mastery that brought out the slave in me. before that i would not allow myself to be dominated in any form. with Him its so natural and easy.

_____________________________

weird is relative not an absolute term. Baron Frank N. Furter
Resident jingly dancing girl
The Pookie Of Darkness
Okay? Ready? Fine .Here's my hand. We are going now. I know the way. All you have to do is hold on tight ... and believe.SK

(in reply to angharad)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 3:53:09 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hello wench,

First off, Kimveri's thread is not about the feelings of the slave girl.

Now as to the heart of the matter for you. I would have expected the slut of a Ubar to be more in tune with her Gorean nature. Surely you don't think this is all about you. Your comments make it sound as if you expect Gorean men to acknowledge your wishes and desires as a slave over what we determine to be the truth.

That being said, I would bet your owner would suggest the same in that you are what he determines you to be, in fact as Gor is to be a society where the men reign supremeit is we that determine a females station in reference to us. Would you care to amend that notion at this time? I'm sure we could find two or three to assist you in a better understanding if need be.

Serve someone well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to donnaamarie)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 4:09:32 PM   
wickedteach


Posts: 4
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		if a tree collapses in a forest and there is no one there to hear it does that change the nautre of its collapse? in the same way if a kajiira is not possessed does that mean that she is free or merely awaiting the moment of her surrender? Does the nature of the Kajiira change at heart?

(in reply to favesclava)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 4:16:34 PM   
AdiraSpice


Posts: 38
Status: offline 		Hello Aswad,

Having a gun to one's head may happen alot in nature/natural surrendings [this isnt the thread for that discussion] but not in my neighborhood. 
I said exactly what I meant. It  is not a natural state for me nor many other Americans unless perhaps they live in an area where there is loads of drive-by's occurring.
The one and only time it happened was 20 years ago and the decision I made was, I wanted to live, so I did what I was told under the circumstances.
It was not a decision that I had time to sit down and write a list of pros and cons and had lots of time to think logically. It was one made under an adreniline rush.
So I dont know what kind of duress you mean  or are used to but its not the one I mean. I'm not reinventing definitions here.
Therefore there is a difference in this kind of decision making.

Similiar thinking situation for Tarl in the marshes..slavery or your life.

quote:

Kim asked a legitimate question, one which Jahna alone has come close to answering so far.


What is your answer to the OP?

Be Well

< Message edited by AdiraSpice -- 10/4/2007 4:35:11 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 4:20:19 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wickedteach

if a tree collapses in a forest and there is no one there to hear it does that change the nautre of its collapse? in the same way if a kajiira is not possessed does that mean that she is free or merely awaiting the moment of her surrender? Does the nature of the Kajiira change at heart?


Tal wickedteach,

We are what we are, regardless of any external manifestation of it. A slave is a slave is a slave, owned or not. Legally, if we lived on Gor, an unowned slave would be treated as a free person with the same rights and obligations. Consider also though, that an unowned slave does not remain so for long. Enslavement on Gor occurs in a heart beat. There is, however, an acknowledged difference in the book between being enslaved and owned, and true submission. The first is a legal state, the second is a state of the heart and mind.

Honor and steel.

SixFoot.

(in reply to wickedteach)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 4:29:35 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings...........Stranger,

Come on..........at least attempt to form a cognitive thought. To simply present yourself as wise and credible by spouting out rhetorical, not to mention redundent questions only accomplishes the contrary to what I would speculate was your intention.

Live well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to wickedteach)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: "Easy" to be...? - 10/4/2007 4:39:20 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		greetings donnamarie,

My feelings exactly, I have done a little bit of discussing on this with friends, and for now, we just agree to disagree, but I currently am of the mind that an unowned slave is just that, an unowned slave, waiting to be owned.

serve and be well,
Mistress Maahsatti

PS. To me, the feelings to be slave and to serve, come from within, not a collar. I agree, that men/Master will bring out a girls deepest desire to serve but any girl, who behaves as a slave would, does not and will not, be looked at with equality to me. If that makes me sound high horsed, then so be it, to me, its just my opinion and belief. and I stand by it, as I always have.

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 10/4/2007 4:44:45 PM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to donnaamarie)
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