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RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery?


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[Poll]

Do you believe in non-consensual slavery?


Yes...
  21% (63)
Hell Yes...
  17% (50)
No...
  15% (45)
Hell No...
  32% (94)
Depends on the wench...
  12% (37)


Total Votes : 289
(last vote on : 3/8/2012 9:13:55 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 7:36:15 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angharad

Greetings Master xBullx,

I have spent some time thinking about my reason why, I spent some time thinking about which box I was going to tick.

My first reaction was a Hell No.  I was thinking of slavery that still exists today, born of oppression and pervision, e,g child slave trade.  Something which empathically upsets me.

The more I thought about this and read peoples posts, I made a decision.  This is a gorean board asking about non consensual slavery and I will take it in that context.  My answer was a hell yes.  As other people have mentioned, particularally ally and angel, there is not much consensualalility in becoming a slave of a gorean man, it seems to me more a reaction.

This led me to the conclusion that this reaction happens all by itself, it's happening whether I like it or not, I just happen to like it very much.  Therefore it's a natural reaction and in accordance with a natural order for people like me.  I have a belief that nature is not wrong and has the easiest simplist way to get things done.  My answer would not have been Hell Yes anymore but a Please Yes!!  (it is possible to get pedantic now and say Ah but thats consentual slavery, I disagree, its  happening regardless of what I do, but I happen to benefit and be happy from it, thats acceptance not consent)


OUTFUCKINSTANDING  girl..... becareful you're impressing the shit out of me.

quote:


This poll has also led to questions of philosophy for me, looking back at the romans, greeks, vikings with their slave structures in society.  I would love to get into the heads of these people and what they thought about the non consensual slavery within their society.  I am probing around the edges of which was the happier society.


You got me............You seen it to be more than a question about slavery...Slavery is indeed the core issue in the question, but it is about so mush more isn't it? Very good, you just became a gold coin girl.

Serve him well,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 10/6/2007 7:37:27 AM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to angharad)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 8:12:53 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 7245
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Tal, you ol' troublemaker...
 
Well damn, falling in love sure ain't "consensual" and the result is definitely a form of enslavement. Do I believe in it? Hell yes! The books have much to say about the enslavement of love and the love of a slave girl for her Master. Underlying the fictional details of Gor's legalized female slavery are Norman's observations about the link between love and surrender. "Belonging" is operationalized on Gor into an actual legal fact.
 
On the other hand, I tend to value Gorean philosophy and ideals, not to romanticize its outlaws and pirates (like the way some people romanticize the Mafia). It really isn't all that fucking pretty up close. Do I believe some testosterone-drunk asshole should be able to grab my daughter off the street and make a slave of her? Hell no! Neither do Goreans in the books. Why do you think Ar patrols the Vosk?
 
In the final analysis, this poll is like a Rorschach test. People can only answer according to what they project into the question, because they've got nothing else to go on. To get truly rational answers, you'd have to define your terms and conditions a lot more fully and carefully. I will say, however, that given the opportunity to specify the terms and conditions, I have no fundamental problem with slavery per se.
 
So I decided to watch and see where this would go. And now comes angharad's post, relying on the Gorean context of the question. That alone would not have satisfied me, because it's a little like giving the right answer in Parochial School. But "Please yes!" is another matter. I could not have voted that, of course. But I sure do think it would have been very interesting to have limited the poll to females and put that option in there.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata
 
 

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 8:19:00 AM   
ryssa


Posts: 501
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline 		Gorean/BDSM or whatever way of life you choose it is irrelevant, because none of this changes the basic fact that there is no "non-consensual" slavery where we live (and I'm not talking about people being kidnapped and forced), so doesn't matter one bit how submissive someone is,  how badly someone claims her "belly burns" (God I loath that saying) at the foot of a man, or how strong a man's will is....she has a choice.  The only time she doesn't have a choice is if HE didn't want her...period. All these people who say that they had "no choice" after meeting their Master, are just too funny. Believe me, if they didn't like, or want to be where they were..they wouldn't be there.

So do I believe in non-consensual slavery?...Well, until we are all whisked away to Gor, not one bit.

ryssa

< Message edited by ryssa -- 10/6/2007 8:33:00 AM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 8:37:35 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Tal and Greetings Gorean,

This is a post focused on the Goreans here, you may comment if you aren't but you will be judged accordingly.  Not being Gorean, I've not voted.

I'm not a nut about always going on about slavery, but I'm curious about you folk. As am I.  What I've read of this thread has been interesting and thought provoking.
Do you believe in unconsensual slavery? Why?

Answered below.



My non-Gorean, female, point of view:
I'd have to say, "depends".  As has been pointed out here by others, and far better than I could done, institutionalized slavery, legalized slavery provides an excellent framework for that which is evil and ugly to flourish.  If human man in general attained more of their, as Mistress Maahsatti has put it, "birthright", that wouldn't be so much the case.  I've seen enough in life, however, to be about as cynical as Cherylmazana on this subject.
 
There is still a place for non-consensual salvery, imo.  That place is when it comes into being through the natural process of "water seeking its own level."  When a woman (using that gender only due to the Gorean context of the original question) and Man meet, and what he is calls to her on a level none has before, and she finds herself naturally slipping into a place of "slavery" in relation to him, it can be a beautiful thing.  The internal process and dynamics may take a couple hours, or more slowly over many months.  When the process is natural,and the "fit' good, labels and formality aren't necessary at all.  When the process is allowed to progress naturally, the chances of a good woman falling prey to a total SOB are slimmer (again, JMO) than in the average mainstream marriage.  An accepting and understand social structure could definitely assist in the developement of healthy M/s relationships.  A society where "slavery" is intolerable in name, but practiced in various unhealty forms in the corners and shadows of society, under any name but 'slavery", contributes on a daily basis to women falling prey to unhealty slavery and servitude at the hands of total SOB's.
 
Summary:  This isn't Gor, it is Earth, and we are stuck with sharing the planet with all these other human beings.  Non-consensual slavery, legalized and societally sanctioned is a poor idea at best, JMNSHO.  If enacted, it could easily result in mankind taking a quantum leap backward .  Healthy non-consensual slavery can, and in fact does exist.  If society woke up to the beauties of  variation in human relationships, demanding more health than uniformity, the human race would take a quantum leap forward.
Not all women are suited to slavery of any type.  Some may only be suited to it with one man in their entire lifetime.  Not all men, even good ones, make great masters.  Slavery is a thing of tremendous beauty or supreme ugliness, as the result of one thing, and one thing only - whether or not it was brought about by the "natural order' between two decent human beings of character, honor, and integrity.
 
-grace

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 8:37:44 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline
I'm gonna grit my teeth and smile on a few of these posts....remembering what MzLiz has told me - then toss out to those ones: "When in Rome"
(ok, so i suck at remembering at times)


On that note......after reading all the posts, i am not qualified to answer the question in this forum. What i can say is that i think there are some outstanding answers to think about....i very much enjoyed angharad's answer the most. Made me think.

I have enjoyed this thread immensely..

Happy Saturday...

~smilezz~





_____________________________

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(in reply to ryssa)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 8:41:40 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 7245
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ryssa

Gorean/BDSM or whatever way of life you choose it is irrelevant, because none of this changes the basic fact that there is no "non-consensual" slavery where we live (and I'm not talking about people being kidnapped and forced), so doesn't matter one bit how submissive someone is,  how badly someone claims her "belly burns" (God I loath that saying) at the foot of a man, or how strong a man's will is....she has a choice.  The only time she doesn't have a choice is if HE didn't want her...period. All these people who say that they had "no choice" after meeting their Master, are just too funny. Believe me, if they didn't like, or want to be where they were..they wouldn't be there.

So do I believe in non-consensual slavery?...Well, until we are all whisked away to Gor, not one bit.

ryssa

Yep, what a bunch of silly idiots our girls are. Hell, Goreans in general, for that matter. Imagine, living in a fantasy world like that! Maybe they'll finally learn something from your post. Or, maybe the Mods will finally realize that Goreans deserve being trashed.
 
Then again, maybe not, eh?
 
K.
 

(in reply to ryssa)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:17:25 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ryssa

Gorean/BDSM or whatever way of life you choose it is irrelevant, because none of this changes the basic fact that there is no "non-consensual" slavery where we live (and I'm not talking about people being kidnapped and forced), so doesn't matter one bit how submissive someone is,  how badly someone claims her "belly burns" (God I loath that saying) at the foot of a man, or how strong a man's will is....she has a choice.  The only time she doesn't have a choice is if HE didn't want her...period. All these people who say that they had "no choice" after meeting their Master, are just too funny. Believe me, if they didn't like, or want to be where they were..they wouldn't be there.

So do I believe in non-consensual slavery?...Well, until we are all whisked away to Gor, not one bit.

ryssa


To Everyone but ryssa -
My apologies in advance for speaking in a liess than tactful and diplomatic manner.
 
To ryssa -
Your post gives new depth, breadth, and nuance to all the negative connotations of the word "bitch".  Not because of your opinion, but because of the attitude.  You might feel a little better if you try a lithium and prune juice coctail.
 
-Grace

(in reply to ryssa)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:18:48 AM   
ryssa


Posts: 501
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline 		I've heard all the Gorean backlashes before, it only hurts for a minute ;) ...and I never called anyone an idiot..You can interject whatever you want into what I said, and people can take it for what it's worth, or not...but it still doesn't change the fact that if the girl at your feet (Gorean or not) didn't want to be there she wouldn't be.

ryssa

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:20:50 AM   
ryssa


Posts: 501
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline 		and here comes the kajira...lol

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:28:02 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		I'm non-Gorean, and not a kajira.  I also have better manners than to go into someone else's home, and crap on the carpet.  Out of respect for those who own the "house" in which we are speaking, I'll address you no further in this thread.
 
Grace

(in reply to ryssa)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:33:00 AM   
ryssa


Posts: 501
Joined: 8/20/2006
Status: offline 		I never asked you to in the first place, so thank you for sparing me more of your wisdom ;)

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:34:33 AM   
Najakcharmer


Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Bull if you do that, make sure to word your initial post so that you state it is a request, and that the TOS and guidelines are the law of the land. That will make the mods happy and not get the thread reported.


I doubt that simply addressing Goreans directly is likely to get the post reported, and it is likely to get non-Goreans to ignore the request since it obviously isn't directed at them.  Asking for poll participation from a single group is of a different order than simply speaking one's mind, or not, on a thread.  In the case of the poll you're gathering hard data about the beliefs of a specific cultural subset, and input from outside the relevant group makes a mess of your data.   So it would not be unreasonable to ask people not to mark the poll unless they were giving meaningful data, eg, from inside the Gorean culture. 

Given the number of non-Gorean responses my guess would be that this poll is not an accurate representation of the beliefs of the specifically Gorean subset of CM membership. 

Bull, would you like me to put a poll together that is designed to get this data a bit more accurately with less contamination from the BDSM culture?  I won't vote in it, but I will create it for you if you like. 

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:46:13 AM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Joined: 8/14/2006
Status: offline 		Oh this is such a confusing question.

Non-consensual slavery exists in the world today.  It's not even a 'race thing' - it's mostly a gender thing when women are sold or kidnapped into a life of prostitution, or young boys are 'recruited' to participate in tribal warfare in Africa when their villages get invaded and conquered.

Do I believe this is right? Not even close.

However, if I look at the question from another standpoint, that in which 'slavery' is akin to a committed relationship where one person has all the power, my answer changes.  I would say yes...for myself.  It would turn me on to be captured by a man...but the problem is that it can't just be *any* man. 

Has anyone ever read "The Collector"?  It's about a young, socially maladjusted man who comes into a bit of money, buys a country house, and kidnaps a girl he has been admiring.  There's no force of will, no dominance, no aggression, throughout the enire novel he remains a whiny little bitch who wants to convince her to be happy with him.  I would rather *die* than attempt to submit to a whiny little bitch boy like that.

I put my answer as 'depends on the wench' but what I really meant was "depends on the man" - I definitely fantasize about being kidnapped, or forced into marriage, but it's always with a certain type of man.  Not just some random schmuk with a soundproof basement and some chloroform.


_____________________________


Slave Under Construction - Blueprints designed by SixFoot Architecture Ltd.

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:47:28 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hello Grace,

If you would, do stop facilitating the angst of those that do not understand and in fact fear that very understanding. The girl ryssa has now made yet another vow to me that she has failed to keep.

Serve well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 9:49:48 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Goreans and other interested parties,

I as you might suspect I do indeed believe in slavery. I believe in it for more than the acquisition of a pleasure or love slave as well. It would be hard for me to be of Gorean nature and not concur with slavery.

I do not however offer any conditions upon the institution of slavery. It would be ridiculous to do so. I would and do however expect good (noble and honorable) men to police the ideals that would constitute its implementation. If you want a clear idea of my thoughts about slavery you’ll have to read the books to get an understanding of the Gorean idea of slavery, social responsibility, strength of character and the nobility of men. My explanation here will only scratch the surface. Men of the same city (speaking about those men in the novels here) tend to defend their own and barring legal punishment a slave is seldom discovered within ones own populace. However exceptions do exist to this principle. The unruly Paris Hilton like wench for instance or criminal types. Girls like Paris are said to be those flirting with the collar. They should therefore find its glorious mystery.

As to the question of this thread, yes I believe in slavery, I didn’t say I would implement it in the preferred method; I seem to have this phobia about being locked in a cage. I would say that with this thread I am hoping to instigate thought well beyond the issue of slavery. Many values and or virtues in the Gorean framework are designed to instill civil order, personal accountability and social responsibility. Slavery of the forced nature is simply something nature has actually allowed for. It actually falls in line with the strongest DNA being moved forward.

While the story of Gor is a fictional trek, its philosophies and principles have been found by many to be all too real. Many of its customs and virtues are not only rational but inspiring, as has been demonstrated in this thread. I started the “brand the wench” thread at the same time for a reason. Look at all the responses it received favorably for some wenches to be enslaved. And it wasn’t just Goreans feeling this way.

While slavery is not simply about owning sluts, it is also about confining men to punishments for their offenses against society. The Gorean story also had its conquests, men of opposing armies having been defeated and put to the chains. As it would be, most men of a Gorean thought process like the idea of men living free (the Gorean condition is about freedom as a whole) and the written examples of Tarl Cabot freeing worthy men from slavery had its philosophical purpose. Men should want other men to live free and honorably. Insecurity and unjust tyranny do to selfish, self serving motives tend to create unjust slavery (the evil slavery some of you fear) and that is in fact where the actions or inactions of good men come to play and direct the course of history.

It is well conceived that most women have a submissive nature. It is also of the same line of thinking that men are generally compelled to a role of dominance. It is also certainly a fact that not all man can dominate all women. Norman used examples of a man not finding himself pleased with a certain wench and talking her back to the sales block so in order for another man to find pleasure in her. The fact is he mentions that a girl may in fact be owned by many masters before she finds her love master. But she will also discover many gifts within herself along the way. So for her the institution of slavery will complete her. In virtually every instance where abuse to the wenches occurred justice was soon to be reckoned. I recall one instance where the slave Judy Thornton(dina) was abused by boys in a peasant village, the leader Thurnus did in fact exact justice on these boys(they had bigger plans than just to abuse the slut, but you’ll have to read it to find out). It was in my opinion intentional that good values always ruled the day. It is in that we see examples of how to live. Every book of philosophy has examples of such.

Our society today speaks of taboos and wrongs that slavery would encounter. It may well be right. But, examine the young human that is not allowed to experience life as an adolescent, they will go crazy when finally freed of their bonds and make one bad decision after another, never having been taught and left to experience life as it is. Also, is it not the apathy of good men that allow a criminal nature to overcome nearly any best laid plan? This is an issue that can take dozens of various directions. It requires deep thought and understanding by all. And we must certainly erase the context of sympathy and pity from our minds if we are to judge life’s challenges justly.

Imagine the tax burden lifted if a man convicted on drug charges was auctioned for use as a slave for the duration of his sentence.(crazy huh) To be owned and used in chains as a laborer, that slavery/criminal sentence to be financed by he who would benefit from this man’s labor. Ohhh, sure there could be guidelines(laws) governing the health and welfare of man’s property(slaves) much the same as the laws our friend Michael Vick recently discovered about his dogs right to quality of life. Simply remember to leave pity out of the creation and implementation of these laws.

Take note that those most against a legal and binding form of slavery also champion other not so successful laws. How’s that war on drugs working for everyone? I do believe many recreational drugs are illegal. It’s not laws that create or take away from the works of “evil”, its men standing firm within their values.

So now I have given you a bit more fat to chew upon, so ponder and expand your minds. Perhaps we have more potential Goreans waiting in the wings. Do remember this isn’t a campaign to institutionalize slavery again. It’s a look into our souls as men (gender neutral instance here) what do we really believe and are we in fact what we say we are. I do believe that a Gorean will without a doubt believe that slavery is what it is and if you don’t like it, perhaps that fear stems from something deeper and a broader sweeping personal issue than you realize.

Live well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 11:28:06 AM   
angharad


Posts: 229
Joined: 10/7/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you Master xBullx

I've shown your reply to my Jarl, as the praise is really because of him.  I'm thrilled and shocked, because sometimes I shake when I write on here I get so nervous.  

I am one very very happy slave girl tonight Master who was lucky enough to be praised by someone she frequently enjoys reading.

In reply to Masters Kirata's comment, I think I would be somewhat interested to see how many females would vote please yes!

Smilezz, I have often enjoyed your posts, and your lively attitude and humour.  I am glad you found it interesting :)

So before i get too mushy! I wish you all well.

angharad

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 11:36:10 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16520
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

No, I don't.

Aside from the legal issue, it's pointless. Short term thinking (America's specialty) at the expense of long term satisfaction and practicality.

Best,

Tim

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Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 11:46:48 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks Tim,

Do remember that it is a Gorean question and not a question of application....

I addressed application in point as it seemed to be the point to many posts.

How Gorean is it in philosophical pursuit to not believe in the act itself? Never mind the practice.

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 12:01:34 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Bull,
 
i did not vote for the obvious reason however i did want to comment on the thread and its topic.
 
As i am trying to determine whether i have the fortitude to become slave, the opinions of those that see their slavehood as non-consensual because of their reactions to their Masters have been most interesting. Many others have given great thoughts to other aspects of this question that i have been chewing on as well.
 
Like smilezz, i have to say i have enjoyed the thread immensely~
j

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Do you believe in non-consensual slavery? - 10/6/2007 12:07:06 PM   
dcnovice


Posts: 30475
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Slavery of the forced nature is simply something nature has actually allowed for.


Nature allows for any number of things (murder, cannibalism, neglecting offspring) that we might not want to incorporate into human relations in the 21st century.

quote:

It actually falls in line with the strongest DNA being moved forward.


Three thoughts:

(a) In terms of evolution, what survives is not necessarily the strongest, but the best adapted to a particular set of circumstances.

(b) This assumes that slaves do not reproduce, which was not the case in the antebellum South.

(c) To take American slavery (the example I know best) again, many slaves were probably physically stronger than their masters. I'd argue they were morally stronger too.

< Message edited by dcnovice -- 10/6/2007 12:32:39 PM >

_____________________________

"For me this struggle is a seamless robe. Opposing apartheid was a matter of justice. Opposing discrimination against women is a matter of justice. Opposing discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation is a matter of justice."

-- Desmond Tutu

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 80
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