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Madonna/Whore Syndrome


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Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 12:17:59 AM   
xoxi


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The more I read about the difference between a Free Woman and a kajira the more it drives me insane...it's the classic psychological 'Madonna/Whore syndrome' at its worst.  There is a quote from the books that says that every woman has inside her both a free woman and a slave...so why separate the two?

From what I read, a free woman must appear entirely chaste in public, any flirtation or sexual component of her personality whatsoever would be considered 'begging a collar' and yet, once she has that collar, she basically is seen as nothing more than a glorified clitoris, expected to be turned on at any moment whatsoever, living, breathing, and sweating sex through her pores.

I don't understand why, if John Norman was aware that both the modest, respectable side *and* the sexually wanton side are both facets of every individual woman, he would force an unneccessary dichotomy between the two.

A man in this philosophy doesn't need to choose between being respectable and dignified and being a sexual creature - he can be the Ubar of a city or a peasant farmer and still enjoy himself between the sheets.  A kajirus wasn't a man who was *sexualized* but rather a man who was submissive.

Yes this is a rant but I'm also looking for any insights.  Am I missing something here, or am I just not understanding the justification?


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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 12:48:19 AM   
Willowmoon


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This is my first post on the Gor board I have been reading them for a while now as many different Doms have told me that my views and the way I think is more Gor then BDSM.

This is one issue that I have been having problems with too. I read somewhere that the girls were also like companions and expected be to able to hold inteligent conversation and/or do thing like be able to sing or play a musical instruments but then I read all this stuff that implys they are nothing more then a sex toy and get confussed.

Willow

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 1:53:53 AM   
Totalmaster4you


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Joined: 6/19/2006
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Tal to the Free and property,
Greeting xoxi,
 
I'm just reading the series again so I'm not sure that I'm far enough along to provide Normans thoughts but I can give you his thoughts filtered through me. So here goes.......You are on target that there's a dichotomy with a Free woman and a slave. Each of these are a culmination of their Genes/DNA and nature/nurture( parental, community and peers) influences. Those influences sometimes push some into slave influences so they beg a collar or the opposite where they become FWor FC. Sometimes it's something you see in yourself and other times a Master will draw the reaction from you.
 
A slave is not seen as a giant clitoris. Masters take them and teach them to no longer repress their feelings and emotions. slaves are to tune into the sexual being that they have been holding back. Norman doesn't force you to choose but if you are a slave that is something Masters will draw out. Along with other qualities such as service, placing her Master first and getting in touch with their submissiveness.
 
Let's say that some women have more of the slave inclination and others have more of the modest etc. So if she has more of the modesty side it needs to integrate with whatever slave she has because she still must serve her FC and he will draw out whatever amount of sensuality she has. The slave gives in to the slave side and integrates whatever is there of the modest which Masters will use in their training.
 
Hope this helps,
TM4Y

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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 2:53:21 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline
Greetings

Men have a disadvantage to women, they can not be sure a child born of their partner is theirs. Well not unthil this day of fancy tests at least. A woman know the baby she press out come from her body and is her child, a man can not know that. Now both men and women want to reproduce, it is a natrual instinct, to spread ones genes. And for a man be resonably sure the genes being spread are his he will want his wife to be chaste, if she is not he can not trust his offspring are his. So there one have the Madonna, the mother, sister, wife, and so on, the respectable partner.

Then one have the woman one do not wish children whit. A man might like a sexual woman, but he can not chance his wife to be, but a whore on the other hand, she can sleep around all she want, she can be as sexual as she want as she is not a prospective mother for some man's child. Most men want their partners to be virgins in public and whores in bed, some have two women in stead, one respectable wife, a child barer and one whore.

May i wish you well


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Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 3:33:27 AM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi
I don't understand why, if John Norman was aware that both the modest, respectable side *and* the sexually wanton side are both facets of every individual woman, he would force an unneccessary dichotomy between the two.

It emphasizes status difference. It will develop in any complex society. For example, there are a few people that buy 800 dollar suits, some people that buy 400 dollar suits, and a lot of people in jeans and a chequered shirt in western societies.
On Gor having few clothes means a woman is not fertile and a slave. In reaction fertile, free women will put on as much clothes as they can bear to proclaim their fertility. So actually it is not about modesty at all, but about fertility status.

< Message edited by Rule -- 10/19/2007 3:34:37 AM >

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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:08:14 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
xoxi, i am not sure if you realize this but a slave to a Gorean Man has no dignity, no privacy, no modisty.  She is a woman who reacts without dignity and modisty to Men because of the way she is held.  A FW is allowed dignity, modisty, privacy, she also is a woman who has to control herself with dignity and modisty. Oh i should also mention respect, a slave does not want or need a Man's respect of her ... a FW does want and need it at the very least in terms of her being free.. 

When you live within the context of not having dignity or modisty with Gorean Men i should say because you are held as a slave, that tends to show through in a very sexual way.  They aren't looking for a Man's respect when they are near a Gorean Man.  A FW on many levels does and on many levels by what she is demands it also.   To me, and what i know of slavery, it is very sexual in nature, its a freedom to be so with everything you are, instead of hiding a part of you. 

What you are missing is John Norman gave the decision of who is what to the Men.  Why separate them?  Why not?  A woman cannot be both a FW and a slave at the same time.  If you know what each of them are in the fullest of context, you know a woman who is a slave cannot be free and a woman who is a FW cannot be a slave.  The totality of slavery would infringe on her understanding of her freedom because well, a slave doesn't HAVE the freedom.  And allowing freedom in slavery would put a woman right back into thinking as to what to be like before Men.  The same could be said for both as to the results of having or not having  dignity, modisty, respect and privacy.

So yes, in a woman, you have a FW and a slave, while these traits one tends to jump out to the forefront of what a woman needs to be, some women have and want self-determination in their lives and live best as a FW, some women don't and need to be held to the expectations and standards and determinations completely of a Man and live best as a slave.

I think both are sexual in their own way based on the concept in which they live.  Slaves are openly sexual because of the way they are kept as slave, FW are not for the determination they have to remain free.

I can pretty much state not separating them and having a woman who needs to be slave live as a FW is deterimental as i presume it would be for a woman who needs to be Free to live as a slave.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 10/19/2007 5:18:21 AM >


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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:21:55 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37388
Joined: 11/3/2004
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In all seriousness, if this be the case, as you so eloquently state it...what's wrong with that? 

Um, you say sweating sex and whatnot.  Yet women talk about passion and desire, and feeling and need in great numbers and quite often out here, and not only here but in your relationships with others.  Surrender, submission, what not.....

Goddammit, there is nothing that will please a woman, even when she is pleased.

Hup the Fool


_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:31:59 AM   
xBullx


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Joined: 10/8/2005
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Greetings wench,

It's like this because I find enjoyment in such...

You have much to understand about being a woman, keep at it.

-does the throaty evil laugh thing-  muwahahahahaha

Him



quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

The more I read about the difference between a Free Woman and a kajira the more it drives me insane...it's the classic psychological 'Madonna/Whore syndrome' at its worst.  There is a quote from the books that says that every woman has inside her both a free woman and a slave...so why separate the two?

From what I read, a free woman must appear entirely chaste in public, any flirtation or sexual component of her personality whatsoever would be considered 'begging a collar' and yet, once she has that collar, she basically is seen as nothing more than a glorified clitoris, expected to be turned on at any moment whatsoever, living, breathing, and sweating sex through her pores.

I don't understand why, if John Norman was aware that both the modest, respectable side *and* the sexually wanton side are both facets of every individual woman, he would force an unneccessary dichotomy between the two.

A man in this philosophy doesn't need to choose between being respectable and dignified and being a sexual creature - he can be the Ubar of a city or a peasant farmer and still enjoy himself between the sheets.  A kajirus wasn't a man who was *sexualized* but rather a man who was submissive.

Yes this is a rant but I'm also looking for any insights.  Am I missing something here, or am I just not understanding the justification?



_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:39:01 AM   
xBullx


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Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Goddammit, there is nothing that will please a woman, even when she is pleased.

Hup the Fool



Ahhhhhhh, perhaps it's time she discovers the slavers caress....

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:41:31 AM   
mnottertail


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Tal Bull,

A grand idea, perhaps she should be instructed in the whole dance.

Hup

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:45:22 AM   
xBullx


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Howdy Hup,

Agreed muchly.......I'll bring the beer and popcorn........

Moooo,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to mnottertail)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:52:48 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37388
Joined: 11/3/2004
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LOL, Bull.

Will one whip be enough or will it be worn away before she resolves her 'dichotomy'?

Hupster

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:56:32 AM   
Rule


Posts: 8016
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Greetings wench,

It's like this because I find enjoyment in such...

You have much to understand about being a woman, keep at it.

-does the throaty evil laugh thing-  muwahahahahaha

Him

Quite. That is just about the best answer imaginable to the question, Bull being the prototypical Gorean male.

(in reply to xBullx)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 5:58:40 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

The more I read about the difference between a Free Woman and a kajira the more it drives me insane...


No wonder... The word kajira in the book refers to several distinct processes and roles.
Observe how the different kajirae are treated, and some patterns will emerge.

quote:


There is a quote from the books that says that every woman has inside her both a free woman and a slave...so why separate the two?


That statement can be read in many different ways. One of which is the following:

quote:


I don't understand why, if John Norman was aware that both the modest, respectable side *and* the sexually wanton side are both facets of every individual woman, he would force an unneccessary dichotomy between the two.


Consider the possibility that he is saying society forces an unneccessary dichotomy between the two, just as he does in some of his non-fiction work in plain text. One of the reasons for making a woman a kajira in the books would appear to be to liberate the wanton side, much in the way some people in BDSM want to be "forced" to do a thing, except the force is very much real on Gor due to the legal institution of slavery.

Not all societies on Gor are as... Middle-East'ish... as Ar, Ko-Ro-Ba, and so forth.

quote:


A man in this philosophy doesn't need to choose between being respectable and dignified and being a sexual creature - he can be the Ubar of a city or a peasant farmer and still enjoy himself between the sheets.


It has frequently been commented that the definition of a slut is a woman with the sexual morals of a man. Consider that men are generally less conflicted about their sex drive. I would, however, say that there may be instances where any conflicts they have could be resolved in a similar manner, but that is posited as unnecessary in a society which is more openly sexual, which may be the case, based on certain tribal societies, but may also be false.

quote:


A kajirus wasn't a man who was *sexualized* but rather a man who was submissive.


A kajirus was, for the most part, a man that had been captured and/or broken.

One who did not hold his freedom higher than his life, and thus didn't deserve his freedom.

quote:


Yes this is a rant but I'm also looking for any insights. Am I missing something here, or am I just not understanding the justification?


Applying "common sense" to the books can sometimes help resolve the confusion of terms and concepts in the clutter Norman left in the books. Bear in mind that the books are, at least initially, based on taking a stance of opposition to the prevailing culture of the environment Norman lived in, and the value of what opposes is more incidental, perhaps even accidental. It's what Nietzsche correctly identified as the slave's approach.

Derive the master's approach that resembles it from what rings true; it isn't inviolate scripture. Goreans, like other people, are a highly varied lot; ask yourself what a Tuchuk, a man or woman of Tharna, a Torvaldslander and a man of Ar all have in common, and you have the essence of the thing. The culture varies from place to place, but the underlying philosophy is essentially constant across the different places on Gor.

Edit: Too early in the morning, obviously, as I forgot to mention the fertility/procreation thing. It was covered well by nephandi and Rule, however, so I'll not duplicate what they have said. Leonidas spoke a fair bit about the two opposing strategies of reproduction elsewhere in this section, so you can find what he said if you're curious, by searching.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 10/19/2007 6:02:51 AM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xoxi)
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RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 6:01:38 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
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Northman,

Hmmmm, well if all else fails I'll just horn the wench!!!

Mooo's louder, snorts and paws the ground,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 6:10:44 AM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline
 

Hi xoxi,

If you search this topic on this forum we have discussed this in depth. There are two types of women in a gorean mans eyes and it is very much like it is for many non-gorean men..there are women you marry/companion with and women you don't.  It is a social and class difference they choose to highlight. They don't make apologies for it either. Life is after all not fair.

There are many other flavors of absolute and unconditional slavery out there where the woman can be both his companion and owned. If you want to be both...and I understand that I wanted both as well(and found it), its out there.

Search the topic, we had some heated discussions over it, I was like you not getting it. I get it now and its just their way. You may or may not find you can choose to be one or the other and be truly happy as the women here have.

Good luck

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

The more I read about the difference between a Free Woman and a kajira the more it drives me insane...it's the classic psychological 'Madonna/Whore syndrome' at its worst.  There is a quote from the books that says that every woman has inside her both a free woman and a slave...so why separate the two?

From what I read, a free woman must appear entirely chaste in public, any flirtation or sexual component of her personality whatsoever would be considered 'begging a collar' and yet, once she has that collar, she basically is seen as nothing more than a glorified clitoris, expected to be turned on at any moment whatsoever, living, breathing, and sweating sex through her pores.

I don't understand why, if John Norman was aware that both the modest, respectable side *and* the sexually wanton side are both facets of every individual woman, he would force an unneccessary dichotomy between the two.

A man in this philosophy doesn't need to choose between being respectable and dignified and being a sexual creature - he can be the Ubar of a city or a peasant farmer and still enjoy himself between the sheets.  A kajirus wasn't a man who was *sexualized* but rather a man who was submissive.

Yes this is a rant but I'm also looking for any insights.  Am I missing something here, or am I just not understanding the justification?



_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 6:48:51 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
You may also find in that thread, that I disagree with the split. Women are women, they are the way nature made them. They are many things all wrapped into one, but it is the male that cannot accept that his Mother may have the feelings of a slut.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie
Hi xoxi,

If you search this topic on this forum we have discussed this in depth. There are two types of women in a gorean mans eyes and it is very much like it is for many non-gorean men..there are women you marry/companion with and women you don't.  It is a social and class difference they choose to highlight. They don't make apologies for it either. Life is after all not fair.

There are many other flavors of absolute and unconditional slavery out there where the woman can be both his companion and owned. If you want to be both...and I understand that I wanted both as well(and found it), its out there.

Search the topic, we had some heated discussions over it, I was like you not getting it. I get it now and its just their way. You may or may not find you can choose to be one or the other and be truly happy as the women here have.

Good luck

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

The more I read about the difference between a Free Woman and a kajira the more it drives me insane...it's the classic psychological 'Madonna/Whore syndrome' at its worst.  There is a quote from the books that says that every woman has inside her both a free woman and a slave...so why separate the two?

From what I read, a free woman must appear entirely chaste in public, any flirtation or sexual component of her personality whatsoever would be considered 'begging a collar' and yet, once she has that collar, she basically is seen as nothing more than a glorified clitoris, expected to be turned on at any moment whatsoever, living, breathing, and sweating sex through her pores.

I don't understand why, if John Norman was aware that both the modest, respectable side *and* the sexually wanton side are both facets of every individual woman, he would force an unneccessary dichotomy between the two.

A man in this philosophy doesn't need to choose between being respectable and dignified and being a sexual creature - he can be the Ubar of a city or a peasant farmer and still enjoy himself between the sheets.  A kajirus wasn't a man who was *sexualized* but rather a man who was submissive.

Yes this is a rant but I'm also looking for any insights.  Am I missing something here, or am I just not understanding the justification?




_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to BeingChewsie)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 6:49:36 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

The more I read about the difference between a Free Woman and a kajira the more it drives me insane...it's the classic psychological 'Madonna/Whore syndrome' at its worst.  There is a quote from the books that says that every woman has inside her both a free woman and a slave...so why separate the two?

From what I read, a free woman must appear entirely chaste in public, any flirtation or sexual component of her personality whatsoever would be considered 'begging a collar' and yet, once she has that collar, she basically is seen as nothing more than a glorified clitoris, expected to be turned on at any moment whatsoever, living, breathing, and sweating sex through her pores.

I don't understand why, if John Norman was aware that both the modest, respectable side *and* the sexually wanton side are both facets of every individual woman, he would force an unneccessary dichotomy between the two.

A man in this philosophy doesn't need to choose between being respectable and dignified and being a sexual creature - he can be the Ubar of a city or a peasant farmer and still enjoy himself between the sheets.  A kajirus wasn't a man who was *sexualized* but rather a man who was submissive.

Yes this is a rant but I'm also looking for any insights.  Am I missing something here, or am I just not understanding the justification?



You certainly aren't alone!  The closest status I've been able to come up with, in Gorean terms, for what I am is Free Companion.  It doesn't seem to be an exceptionally good fit, however.  I'll be reading this thread with great interest.
 
Grace

(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 6:55:05 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOL, Bull.

Will one whip be enough or will it be worn away before she resolves her 'dichotomy'?

Hupster


Perhaps she will become more like me.......perfectly at home in her own skin, and with all her various facets.
 
Believe it or not, some of us women can be quite pleased *Wicked Evil Grin and a "Snork"*
 
May you have delight in your day -
 
Grace

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Madonna/Whore Syndrome - 10/19/2007 6:56:30 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

You may also find in that thread, that I disagree with the split. Women are women, they are the way nature made them. They are many things all wrapped into one, but it is the male that cannot accept that his Mother may have the feelings of a slut.

Orion



Thank you.
Grace

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 20
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