Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just semantics?

Collarchat.com

Create a
Free Account

As the Collar Turns:

Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home Login Search

Espanol

Deutsch

Francais

Italiano

Portugues

Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just semantics?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just semantics?

Page: [1] 2 3 4 5 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just semantics? - 11/2/2007 9:18:47 AM

Cherylmazana

Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline

I have a problem with calling a slave a FC just so you can marry etc, its something I have heard a lot on Gorean boards that if you marry your slave she should become your FC, that a slave should not have the legal privileges of a wife.

To me it does nothing more than show contempt to the free women out there who are not slaves and who are following the philosophy, and even worse it is lying so you can follow a custom.

The term a slave in robes is not after all very complimentary and can even at times make the man look weak.

One of the things I was told was to turn something around and see how it looked then.

So if owned a kajiras (not likely) and I decided to marry him and call him my free companion and a Gorean man while knowing that in his heart he was a slave and still served me, even if the wider community also knew this I wonder how the men would react.

Gorean customs are just the window dressing after all, they are not the philosophy and should not be confused with it.

Cheryl

Post #: 1

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 9:24:07 AM

GhitaAmati

Posts: 3263
Joined: 5/30/2007
Status: offline

Cheryl,
I personally have always seen a FC as someone who was still submissive to their husband, just not to everyone, and that to me was the largest difference. Once a girl is married she no longer serves all free, only her husband. I may be wrong on that so Im sorry, but that was always the impression I recieved from what little I have read so far and from here on the boards. I dont think it shows the man as weak at all. It just shows a different dynamic. Not one that is worse or better, just different.

_____________________________

I said I was a submissive, I never said I was a GOOD submissive.

Sex without love is a meaningless experience, but as far as meaningless experiences go its pretty damn good.
~Woody Allen

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 2

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 9:28:26 AM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Calling a slave "free" is just using a different word to represent the same semantic content.

It really is that simple.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to GhitaAmati)

Post #: 3

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 9:33:22 AM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

I have a problem with calling a slave a FC just so you can marry etc, its something I have heard a lot on Gorean boards that if you marry your slave she should become your FC, that a slave should not have the legal privileges of a wife. I'd hope that a real Man would know the difference between a slave who's developed into FC material because that is what she is most suited to, as opposed to a truly natural slave, or simply a woman who is submissive to him alone.

To me it does nothing more than show contempt to the free women out there who are not slaves and who are following the philosophy, and even worse it is lying so you can follow a custom. I'm not even Gorean, and as a submissive FC who cherishes freedom enough to die for it I find it insulting.

The term a slave in robes is not after all very complimentary and can even at times make the man look weak. IMO a man also appears weak if he insists on calling a submissive, submissive FC, or FC a "slave".

Edited twice because it is more cost effective than shooting they typist.

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 11/2/2007 9:36:38 AM >

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 4

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 9:36:49 AM

Rule

Posts: 8016
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

Whatever one calls a slave, she or he is a slave is a slave is a slave is not a free companion. I do not see any reason not to marry a slave - and if that is not Gorean, then so be it.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 5

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 9:38:09 AM

Najakcharmer

Posts: 2121
Joined: 5/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

I have a problem with calling a slave a FC just so you can marry etc, its something I have heard a lot on Gorean boards that if you marry your slave she should become your FC, that a slave should not have the legal privileges of a wife.

According to Gorean belief, a slave should also not have the legal privileges to walk away at any time either. But we live on Earth in this century, so the reality is that they do.

In the world we live in, a slave automatically has many legal privileges that no amount of arguing about the "shoulds" of any type of owner/owned relationship is ever going to negate. Those facts can either be ignored and denied, or worked with intelligently and realistically within the framework of the relationship.

Ultimately the owner trusts the slave to continue behaving as a slave, and masters that slave appropriately to enforce that behavior. The law says that the slave has the legal right to do any number of things, but the slave understands that within the context of their relationship, they do not have the moral right to do them. If they do, then they are no longer a slave.

A slave in a long term relationship who is well known, well mastered and well trusted by an owner may in fact be the best person to manage their owner's legal affairs and especially their ums in the case of the owner's death, serious illness or incapacitation. If that is so, then marriage is the logical answer. Does that slave now have more "rights" unbefitting a slave than they did before the legal ceremony? Technically no. Their level of "rights" in the eyes of the law have not changed in an absolute sense. What they have now is legal leverage and recourse should the relationship go sour. If that's a big concern, marriage shouldn't happen - but that would be true in a vanilla relationship as well.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 6

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 9:54:24 AM

Sakinah

Posts: 95
Joined: 9/25/2007
Status: offline

Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,

sakinah always was taught the Man decides what the female shall be to him based on his wishes and her nature.
This is natural and it is the philosophy.

Just as a slave needs a Free Man to claim her in order to be a slave
a FW needs a Free Man to hold and defend her claim of freedom/ the acceptance of said claim by the Free Men in the community, if a woman chooses this for herself without a Man making her Free or Companioned.

The Males grant the rights of the status of the woman.
The females do NOT pick that which they wish

Sakinah has read many arguements over this topic in yahoo lists*shaked head* no matter what, for sakinah it is all decided by the Men and the female needs to be true to her nature for living any other way is unfullfilling.

she does not believe in M/s marrying ----no matter whose gender is on top-

quote:

Gorean customs are just the window dressing after all, they are not the philosophy and should not be confused with it.

now this confuses the heck out of sakinah could someone please clarify this statement?

well wishes

< Message edited by Sakinah -- 11/2/2007 10:01:41 AM >

_____________________________

The Gorean women, for reasons that are not altogether clear to me, considering the culture, rejoices in being a woman. She is often an exciting, magnificent glorious creature, outspoken, talkative, vital, active, spirited.
bk3 p 67

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 7

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 10:29:02 AM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sakinah

a FW needs a Free Man to hold and defend her claim of freedom/ the acceptance of said claim by the Free Men in the community, if a woman chooses this for herself without a Man making her Free or Companioned.

Take this statement to your Master, girl.

It is insulting to every Free Woman out there.

quote:

now this confuses the heck out of sakinah could someone please clarify this statement?

Quite simply... the culture and customs of Gor are an artificial construct by Lange.
The philosophy, however, is a synthesis by Lange, from natural ideas.
From that, natural culture and customs can emerge.

Even one who follows the customs should admit that Gorean philosophy has primacy, not Gorean culture.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Sakinah)

Post #: 8

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 10:46:18 AM

Sakinah

Posts: 95
Joined: 9/25/2007
Status: offline

Greetings Master Aswad,

in the context of her own life,
it isvery much a reality ,

as she is free now and she has no man to make the claim for her to defend her freedom nor does she have a man to claim her/wear a collar.

this is what she was taught when she was in collar.

thank you for clarifing the rest

she will bring to the one she speaks to

well wishes

< Message edited by Sakinah -- 11/2/2007 11:23:20 AM >

_____________________________

The Gorean women, for reasons that are not altogether clear to me, considering the culture, rejoices in being a woman. She is often an exciting, magnificent glorious creature, outspoken, talkative, vital, active, spirited.
bk3 p 67

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 9

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 11:29:39 AM

xBullx

Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

-fast reply-

Do not confuse what it is to be Gorean, in an actual credible nature with what some folk would like to claim is Gorean to fit their own nature.

Women come in various degrees of undress, if you will. Most can live in whatever way makes the man in their life happy. These are called submissives. Most women fit this mold. The FC would fall into this catagory. The slave however is much more sexual and dependent on man, they in most cases are born to this, but they can also be conditioned as such. That would depend on the capability of the man. However it is a fool that takes the last of these mentioned women and attempts to make her anything but what she is.

I also caution not not to mistake wretched manners or terrible social skills with slave nature. That is a common misnomer.

To be Gorean is accepting philosophy and custom. Anything else is simply that, anything else. So argue until your pink with contempt, to be a Gorean is what is described within the pages of these ever so fictional novels that were written on this ever so Terra Firma(spck) planet of Earth, third rock from the sun. yet to live within Gorean context and adhere to it is to be Gorean, if you have to alter the tenants to fit you; than you are no longer that which you started out as, or ended as, or blah, blah, blah.

Goreans don't marry slaves, we have been down this road before. If you marry your slave you are having the fantasy of what Gor is all about. If you have free children with a slave, you are again missing the point of what it is to be Gorean. Hence inspiring your own brand of confusion. Dammit, where is Leonidas when I need his simple english answers to these situations.... I have work to do, I'll check on you folks later

Live well,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 11/2/2007 11:49:27 AM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Sakinah)

Post #: 10

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 11:43:41 AM

IrishMist

Posts: 7259
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

Despite not knowing and understanding the books the way some do; I agree with the concept that OWNERS do not marry PROPERTY. Yes, mine married me; but the reasons were extreme and I fought it every step of the way. It was not until an ultimatum was issued that I finally gave in and followed his wishes on this.

Did that suddenly make me a FC in his eyes? Absolutely not. And I will be honest; I hated the fact that we had to get married because it did not sit right with me.
I have known many Free Companions in my time; and ever single one of them knew their place at the side of the man who had chosen them. Their being married did not change them from who and what they naturally were and are; women, here to satisfy the needs of men. There is nothing shameful in that; it is natural and free. Those who are FC’s simply have a bit more freedom in how they are allowed to satisfy those needs.

I have never known a Gorean in real life; who married their property without there being an extreme reason for doing so. And by extreme, I do not mean for legal reason of equality in the eyes of society; I mean for reason of life or death and the reality of what happens after death.

What’s more, those who did marry their property, never did they elevate to a status of a Free; they still remained property.

Like so many who have already stated, to call a slave your FC simply because you are now married; is the fantasy and not the reality. And to say differently, is to insist that fantasy is more important than reality.

Edited to add because I just thought about this and found it amusing

Years ago, I had asked this same question of someone and their answer, though quite degrading and cruel, was very easy to understand.

You marry a girlfriend; you do not marry a hooker
Your wife is your FC; your slave is your mistress

Crude but once you get past the negative thinking of the word hooker; it's easy to understand.

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 11/2/2007 11:54:16 AM >

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.
Real people are not perfect.
Perfect people are not real.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 11

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:04:33 PM

xaria

Posts: 97
Joined: 1/24/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

Greetings Free,
Greetings Property,

Just a quick question...what if you're a mistress and a wife, but to two different men? :D (Obviously the husband knows about everything.) Does that leave room to be a Gorean slave? :)

Respectfully,

xaria - Property of Xavier

< Message edited by xaria -- 11/2/2007 12:05:36 PM >

_____________________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
xaria - Property of Xavier
House of Logos

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 12

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:04:52 PM

Rule

Posts: 8016
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
I agree with the concept that OWNERS do not marry PROPERTY.

What’s more, those who did marry their property, never did they elevate to a status of a Free; they still remained property.

Like so many who have already stated, to call a slave your FC simply because you are now married; is the fantasy and not the reality. And to say differently, is to insist that fantasy is more important than reality.

All those legalities are that much nonsense. A slave is a slave, whether she is married, has a blue painted nose or not. Earth is not Gor where a slave can be beautiful and live nearly forever and move from one master to the next master. As far as I am concerned a slave is also a human being, and in the case of a transformed natural slave a superhuman being, and the owner is responsible for taking care of her and for protecting her. There are various ways to go about that, one of them being adoption - but who in his right mind would do that - another being marriage, and the third being making sure that if necessary she can survive on her own.

< Message edited by Rule -- 11/2/2007 12:05:57 PM >

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 13

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:15:50 PM

xBullx

Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

I have a problem with calling a slave a FC just so you can marry etc, its something I have heard a lot on Gorean boards that if you marry your slave she should become your FC, that a slave should not have the legal privileges of a wife.

Goreans don't marry slaves, that should keep that simple enough.

quote:

To me it does nothing more than show contempt to the free women out there who are not slaves and who are following the philosophy, and even worse it is lying so you can follow a custom.

Are you asserting that all the submissive married women that like their sexuality with their companions are slaves? Not that it is something we need to discuss in public, after all, we wouldn't want to offend any of those tender free female sensabilities.

I'm not sure if you are wanting to follow the customs or are saying you shouldn't in the above, you are susing it to suit your own device on alternate ends.

But you are right, a man should not marry his slave. In the Gorean ideal of it anyway.

As for customs, they are one of the results of asserting philosphies into action, so they coincide and your choice to alter their content or remove their existance is anti-pragmatic.

quote:

The term a slave in robes is not after all very complimentary and can even at times make the man look weak.

I covered this in another post. Men look weak when they are, and also when they try to alter the facts to fit their own version of a truth. Again I assert, if a woman is a slave, why then even place her into the position of a free woman? No Gorean man should...

quote:

One of the things I was told was to turn something around and see how it looked then.

So if owned a kajiras (not likely) and I decided to marry him and call him my free companion and a Gorean man while knowing that in his heart he was a slave and still served me, even if the wider community also knew this I wonder how the men would react.

Well if humor was your objective here, you succeeded. Though your comment was not very practical. Why would you marry a slave? You did manage to illustrate my point rather clearly though. Thanks....

quote:

Gorean customs are just the window dressing after all, they are not the philosophy and should not be confused with it.

Actually it's the customs and social practices that identify a person as being unique. So you shouldn't confuse the distinguishing characteristics that mark you as a Gorean with being inconsequential. Customs are one of those marks, not all are practical at times, but non the less they are relevant.

Live well,

Bull

OK, now I really have to get going for awhile.

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 14

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:19:32 PM

kisshou

Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sakinah

a FW needs a Free Man to hold and defend her claim of freedom/ the acceptance of said claim by the Free Men in the community, if a woman chooses this for herself without a Man making her Free or Companioned.

Take this statement to your Master, girl.

It is insulting to every Free Woman out there.

Greetings Master Aswad,

why is this insulting? I was taught this also.

well wishes
kisshou

(in reply to Aswad)

Post #: 15

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:26:30 PM

IrishMist

Posts: 7259
Joined: 11/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

All those legalities are that much nonsense. A slave is a slave, whether she is married, has a blue painted nose or not. Earth is not Gor where a slave can be beautiful and live nearly forever and move from one master to the next master. As far as I am concerned a slave is also a human being, and in the case of a transformed natural slave a superhuman being, and the owner is responsible for taking care of her and for protecting her. There are various ways to go about that, one of them being adoption - but who in his right mind would do that - another being marriage, and the third being making sure that if necessary she can survive on her own.

Hello Rule
I do not pretend to understand the ways of men; nor would I want to if the truth be known lol. I am quite happy in my little world of ignorance.

There are ways of taking care of a person without marrying them; you are intelligent enough to know that. Personally, I always knew that I would be taken care of; marriage was not needed for that. We married so that I could retain custody of his other UM’s; I had to go to court to do so, but I won; which is what he wanted.

And I respectfully disagree with the tone of your words when you said “a slave is a slave whether married or not”. I agree with the fact that marriage did not change my status; but Gorean men do not marry slaves.

Where was it ever mentioned that Earth = Gor?

What you seem to be missing is that I could live on Mars and still have the same ideas and beliefs that I now hold. It is not the place; it is what lies within a person that defines them. I was raised with the same ideas and beliefs that are prominent within the philosophies of the books; it is who I am, the very fiber of my being; and despite the fact that I refuse to kneel at the feet of another does not change who and what I am. It just makes it harder in life to fight what is natural.

Do I pretend to be anything other than what I am? Absolutely. I have to in order to keep myself from the darkness that is my soul; not by choice, but by necessity.

But I also see things a bit differently than others; not because I think I am better, but because my life has been different. My parents, and then my husband shaped who I am today; I don’t fight what is right and true; I just accept it and go on.

Do I believe in the books? Absolutely not; they are fiction. That is reality.
Do I believe in the philosophy that books hold true to? Without a single doubt in my mind. That is MY reality.

quote:

Just a quick question...what if you're a mistress and a wife, but to two different men? :D (Obviously the husband knows about everything.) Does that leave room to be a Gorean slave? :)

Miss xaria
LOL well… umm… I will be honest lol; I don’t know lmao. You would have to ask one more knowledgeable than I about such things.

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.
Real people are not perfect.
Perfect people are not real.

(in reply to Rule)

Post #: 16

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:37:32 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Tal Bull,

quote:

Dammit, where is Leonidas when I need his simple english answers to these situations....

Much as I have argued with him in the past- especially before my views on some things changed- I must say I miss him too. I still have disagreements with him, but those can be dealt with. He is still a man who is not afraid to be who and what he is, and that counts pretty heavily in his favour as far as my regard for him is concerned. His ability to retain semantic precision without my excessive verbage would be useful.

One of your more surprising posts so far, by the way, in the extent to which I agree with it. However, as usual, I contest the point about customs being an absolute requisite to be Gorean, and things being statically defined. But that is a point for some other debate, I figure. And pretty much a relatively minor point of disagreement, I should hope.

Health,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: My compliments on your posts in the thread that suffered the Flame Death.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 17

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:40:25 PM

sabba

Posts: 396
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: xaria

Greetings Free,
Greetings Property,

Just a quick question...what if you're a mistress and a wife, but to two different men? :D (Obviously the husband knows about everything.) Does that leave room to be a Gorean slave? :)

Respectfully,

xaria - Property of Xavier

greetings xaria;

No, a kajira cannot serve more than one Master. How can she be completely devoted to more than one? Even if both know about each other, there are subtle changes that will be noticed eventually. Complete obedience isn't possible when anothers wishes have to be taken into consideration. A Master requires, demands, expects and deserves loyalty, devotion and obedience. It doesn't matter how open and honest everyone is....the moment the girl thinks "well, what about xyz......" someone is shortchanged.

In the end, a girl can pretend to serve more than one...even try her best, but it's not possible. Someone will always be disappointed.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}

(in reply to xaria)

Post #: 18

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:40:50 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Greetings, Sakinah...

This is not Gor. Not being a slave does not make one free. Ask yourself a simple question:
What will you do the next time a man would have you at his feet, rather than at his side?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Sakinah)

Post #: 19

RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:49:07 PM

xaria

Posts: 97
Joined: 1/24/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sabba

greetings xaria;

No, a kajira cannot serve more than one Master. How can she be completely devoted to more than one? Even if both know about each other, there are subtle changes that will be noticed eventually. Complete obedience isn't possible when anothers wishes have to be taken into consideration. A Master requires, demands, expects and deserves loyalty, devotion and obedience. It doesn't matter how open and honest everyone is....the moment the girl thinks "well, what about xyz......" someone is shortchanged.

In the end, a girl can pretend to serve more than one...even try her best, but it's not possible. Someone will always be disappointed.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}

Greetings sabba {CB},

Well, i do know how hard it is, because i am doing that at this moment. i was married before i found the lifestyle. i first found BDSM. Now, my Master has introduced me to the Gorean lifestyle. i have found myself eager to learn more. my husband is submissive, so there isn't always a problem with who's in charge. It is still early yet, so we'll see how it all goes. Thank you for your reply. i wish you well.

_____________________________

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
xaria - Property of Xavier
House of Logos

(in reply to sabba)

Post #: 20

Page: [1] 2 3 4 5 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just semantics?

Page: [1] 2 3 4 5 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2012

Collarchat.com is a member of the Free Speech Coalition

Terms of Service

0.375