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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just semantics?


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:52:40 PM   
camille65


Posts: 5300
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline 		Good Afternoon,I wish I could recall the wording of my other post. I was asking because I am struggling to understand the concept but it was [to me] a complex question that I can't formulate again.It has to do with how I feel a slave is considered under particular circumstances. Hopefully this thread or another will help lead me to understanding. ~camille

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(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:53:51 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

quote:


As for customs, they are one of the results of asserting philosphies into action, so they coincide and your choice to alter their content or remove their existance is anti-pragmatic.


Quick point on this, then, as it tickles...

The customs in the books are a simulation in one man's head of one of the results of handing the philosophies to a population that has been synthetically constructed by the process of throwing together different groups of people from different times and places and hanging the Flame Death over their heads. Hardly representative of any natural process.

True, given the circumstances in the books, it's a reasonable approximation to the result.

But in the end, our starting point is different from theirs, so we must put the philosophies into action ourselves, together, and allow a culture- with its attendant customs- to grow from that. Some of those customs and that culture, we can figure out by thinking, and a good deal of that has already been done for us in the Gor books, the Hávamál, and the first-hand accounts of Bushido, all of which need adaptation. The rest must emerge on its own.

It starts with a realization, an unbuilding and a rebuilding, and concludes with an emergence. This is existential pragmatism, if you will. For your consideration: if the philosophy precludes importing the culture, one cannot follow both, which makes your criterion for being Gorean impossible to fulfill, as either term then cancels the other term.

Which leaves the question: does the philosophy preclude importing the culture?

That's where I think our opinions diverge.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:58:10 PM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Cheryl

I see no problem what so ever with what someone does in their own lives.  I do not base who I am on what others do or do not do.  Thus I am not the least threatened as a female by what another female is called or not called. 

A rose remains a rose even if it is called a banana. 

Jahna


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Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 12:58:25 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3938
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Aswad,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad
I contest the point about customs being an absolute requisite to be Gorean, and things being statically defined. But that is a point for some other debate, I figure.


No worries, I was not implying Gor has to be static, all things evolve. However to dismiss the culture features that define an existance would be fruitless, I tend to believe that even culture norms have to be alive, hance maintain an evolutionary degree of flexability, but it is a societal evolution, not a personal one. One is for the good of community survival, the other is for personal validation.

Live well,

Bull



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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 1:01:17 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou

why is this insulting? I was taught this also.


A woman who will not stand without a man to speak for her, has no place being Free.
To claim that all women need a man to speak for her is to say it's never a woman's place to be Free.
That is an insult to all Free Women, and in fact to all Free, for it ignores the primacy of freedom in Gorean thought.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 1:05:48 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

We are in agreement on all points, except for the question of where the journey starts.

If it would interest anyone to have a debate on that, I'll start a thread on the topic.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 1:15:03 PM   
Sakinah


Posts: 95
Joined: 9/25/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings Master Aswad,



If this was Gor she would have been thrown to the sleens or spent a very long time strapped to the whipping pole.

irregardless of this fact...
she is 'free,;
and that is because there is no collar
on her neck at this time

without a Gorean Man's claims of one sort or another , she has no status ,and this is what she was taught and believes.

as to what was spoken earlier, it was the intepretation she was taught .

for the simple question Master,
<she will kneel,beg and crawl>she knows who she answers to and who compels her...

sakinah is not 'progressive'

well wishes


< Message edited by Sakinah -- 11/2/2007 1:34:51 PM >

_____________________________

The Gorean women, for reasons that are not altogether clear to me, considering the culture, rejoices in being a woman. She is often an exciting, magnificent glorious creature, outspoken, talkative, vital, active, spirited.
bk3 p 67

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 1:46:02 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		There are many things that she may not be, Sakinah.
He will not go into what those things might be in his own view.
But if she would claim to be free, she might want to carry herself as such.
Even a woman of Ar carries herself with pride; a Free Woman does not crawl.

Then again, what does he know?
He is only a "progressive" Gorean Free Man, after all.
He is certainly not a well-studied, conservative Gorean Free Woman.

~snorts~

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Sakinah)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 1:46:46 PM   
sabba


Posts: 396
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xaria
Greetings sabba {CB},

Well, i do know how hard it is, because i am doing that at this moment.  i was married before i found the lifestyle.  i first found BDSM.  Now, my Master has introduced me to the Gorean lifestyle.  i have found myself eager to learn more.  my husband is submissive, so there isn't always a problem with who's in charge.  It is still early yet, so we'll see how it all goes.  Thank you for your reply.  i wish you well.


Greetings xaria;

You asked if it was Gorean slavery. The answer is NO. A Gorean Master regards His kajira as property. When a girl attempts to serve 2 Masters, that's sharing. Sharing is a form of compromise. Gorean Masters don't compromise.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}

< Message edited by sabba -- 11/2/2007 1:48:10 PM >

(in reply to xaria)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 1:55:17 PM   
Sakinah


Posts: 95
Joined: 9/25/2007
Status: offline 		Master Aswad,

sakinah appreciates the sarcasm. she speaks third because she is expected to by the one she is compelled by and who gives her rules to follow

yet....

quote:

she is 'free,;
and that is because there is no collar
on her neck at this time


she did not say she was a Mistress.

there is very big difference

Within protocol and rules of conduct and standards of behavior between an

uncollared girl who is free to make her own choices in life
till the time comes she begs Masters collar

and a Gorean Free Woman.

well wishes





quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

There are many things that she may not be, Sakinah.
He will not go into what those things might be in his own view.
But if she would claim to be free, she might want to carry herself as such.
Even a woman of Ar carries herself with pride; a Free Woman does not crawl.

Then again, what does he know?
He is only a "progressive" Gorean Free Man, after all.
He is certainly not a well-studied, conservative Gorean Free Woman.

~snorts~

Health,
al-Aswad.




_____________________________

The Gorean women, for reasons that are not altogether clear to me, considering the culture, rejoices in being a woman. She is often an exciting, magnificent glorious creature, outspoken, talkative, vital, active, spirited.
bk3 p 67

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:07:42 PM   
smilezz


Posts: 2149
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Not being a slave does not make one free.


Good afternoon Aswad,

Now that i am thoroughly confused....and perhaps it's just how i am reading this....not sure yet.

In the many, many threads that i have read on this debate......what is true? if you are not an owned slave, what are you? an un-owned slave or a free?

It may be how "i" am reading this...but as of late, there seems to be a whole lot of contridiction to not only this issue, but a few others. I am contemplating that thread here in a bit.

Things that are making me go....hmmmmmmmmm...

Happy Friday!

~smilezz~


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(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:15:33 PM   
xaria


Posts: 97
Joined: 1/24/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Greetings sabba,

Changed my mind on my response.  i'll leave it with a thank you.

< Message edited by xaria -- 11/2/2007 2:22:31 PM >

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xaria - Property of Xavier
House of Logos

(in reply to sabba)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:28:12 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Good evening, smilezz. 

That is part of the reason for the "factoring" thread.
The underlying concepts aren't confusing in the least bit.
But the words used, and their various capitalizations, may be.
Ponder the concepts apart from their words, and it will be clear.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to smilezz)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:31:38 PM   
Rule


Posts: 7805
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz

quote:

Not being a slave does not make one free.

Now that i am thoroughly confused....and perhaps it's just how i am reading this....not sure yet.

In the many, many threads that i have read on this debate......what is true? if you are not an owned slave, what are you? an un-owned slave or a free?

You are confused because you are interpreting this from a Gorean legal point of view. I suspect that Aswad did not refer to legalities, but to the reality of being by one's nature a slave.

(in reply to smilezz)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:43:44 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Joined: 8/14/2006
Status: offline 		With all due respect, I don't think that marriage on earth can be directly compared to Free Companionship.  Marriage doesn't make a man and a woman equals - their status as citizens of their nation makes them equals - I'm not so sure what you mean by the 'rights of a wife' but I would say the financial benefits (combining insurance, social security payments etc.) are in the Man's best interest as well. 

Traditionally marriage has been a transfer of ownership from the father to the husband and the ritual still retains elements of that.  The father 'giving the bride away' so to speak shows that he is giving control of the woman to the husband.  Originally only women wore wedding bands, and it was on the middle finger which at the time was believed to lead directly to the heart - symbolic in a sense of being chained or even collared.  The groom carrying the bride across the threshold was symbolic of him capturing her, and physically taking her into his home by force. 

If you look at ancient cultures where no women were allowed to be citizens at all, they were still wives.  Being a wife does not make one "free" - it simply binds two people in the eyes of the law.  Whether the man considers his wife to be his companion or his property depends on the couple involved.  Traditional marriage vows had the wife promise to "love, honor and obey" while the man promised to "love honor and cherish" - the post-feminist idea of romantic marriage being an equal partnership is definitely new.

I agree that you don't marry a hooker, but as long as a man keeps his slave in his own house and his own bed I fail to see the comparison - wives who consider themselves equal are far more likely to have an affair than a devoted slave anyway. 

Edited for content


< Message edited by xoxi -- 11/2/2007 2:53:53 PM >

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(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:46:40 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Why not marry a hooker, soshi?

And don't mention what you can't discuss.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:48:18 PM   
xoxi


Posts: 1066
Joined: 8/14/2006
Status: offline 		Because she might bring home something unwelcome like a virus or a bastard baby.

Ex-hookers on the other hand can be fair game


_____________________________


Slave Under Construction - Blueprints designed by SixFoot Architecture Ltd.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:52:43 PM   
MistressPurpleFL


Posts: 112
Joined: 10/2/2005
Status: offline 		AKKK AHHH Reading all this has made my head Spin: Labels, Gorean this or Gorean that, Bdsm this or Bdsm that.....???
 
While I may not AGREE with the Gorean System Since I am a Dominant Woman I can respect others and their choices but really as with other things and or subjects in life EVERYONE has a different view on the Exact same Subject.  
 
As it is in Life,
 
Best Wishes
 
MP

_____________________________

"Life is too short to stay in the missionary position" By Mistress PurpleFL

"Nothing caresses like a suede whip in my hand; now let me touch you all over." Be me

"Smile at me with your eyes as you KNEEL to serve me with your HEART!" By me

(in reply to xaria)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:54:19 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6618
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		With all due respect, soshi, so can anyone who isn't kept on a short leash.

I would not live with someone I did not trust to avoid that without keeping them on a short leash.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xoxi)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 2:58:52 PM   
sassysexygirl


Posts: 213
Joined: 8/23/2007
Status: offline 		greetings Masters and Mistresses
greetings slaves and guests
greetings xaria ~~

this one was not going to post on this thread but the following quote has this one totally confused.

quote:

  Well, i do know how hard it is, because i am doing that at this moment.  i was married before i found the lifestyle.  i first found BDSM.  Now, my Master has introduced me to the Gorean lifestyle.  i have found myself eager to learn more.  my husband is submissive, so there isn't always a problem with who's in charge.  It is still early yet, so we'll see how it all goes.  Thank you for your reply.  i wish you well.
xaria - Property of Xavier
House of Logos

sassy is not trying to start an argument but ,,,,,,,, huh?  how can you be kajira, and yet be dominant to a submissive husband? .. .... help?

well wishes to the Free and slaves,
sassy

< Message edited by sassysexygirl -- 11/2/2007 3:01:36 PM >

(in reply to xaria)
Profile   Post #: 40
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