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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just semantics?


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/9/2007 6:30:00 PM   
Najakcharmer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
Are you sure it is from the male perspective? Have you ever read the legend of Lao Tzu? Did you know that in most english translations of the Tao Te Ching, that when a pronoun must be used, it is usually the feminine that is used? have you studied any eastern philosophy? I had a road block studying it in the beginning, as the perspective is very unique. Could it be that avoidance of the word "submit" is what may be in question, and that to better digest it, it must be changed to win-win?


A good part of the issue here has to do with cultural context and translation.  I don't know what the original word was that Lao Tzu used that was translated as "submit", nor its exact cultural context in his era.  I do suggest that in the context of posting in a Gorean forum, the term "submit" is likely to be read in a fairly specific context.    Even in the more general context of American culture, the word "submit" tends to have a weak or negative implication, one that tends to imply a win-lose paradigm. 

I've done the minimal background reading on Eastern philosophy, but it's not something I'm anywhere near expert in.  In Eastern philosophies, the notion of submitting may be more of a spiritual one and does not necessarily imply a win-lose scenario. 

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/11/2007 10:02:13 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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The chinese character used can have different meanings depending on context. My research shows it is likely meant as one submiting to the authority and the other submitting to the responsibility.

Live well,
Orion

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Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/12/2007 6:04:22 AM   
Aswad


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Tal Orion,

Sounds like "accept," sort of, doesn't it?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/12/2007 8:51:45 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Tal Aswad,

"Accept" is one of the possible english translations, of that word. From research of the word accept, from an eastern view, it would not entirely fit every time either.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Tal Orion,

Sounds like "accept," sort of, doesn't it?

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/14/2007 2:18:25 PM   
Aswad


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Tal Orion,

No surprise there. They aren't of the same language families, so the inventory of cognates will be rather limited, particularly as deals with more abstract concepts. Also, the idioms surrounding their use will vary. For instance, despite their common roots, Norwegian and English will use different idioms with cognate words, such as "go on town" vs "go to town", "up in the bag" vs "into the bag", "suffer along with" vs "sympathy", "down memory lane" vs "into memories" and so forth. Lots of constructions that don't align very well, even when the words are a but a few consonant mutations apart and retain the same meanings and connotations. And we even share a lot of stories and other cultural references to begin with.

For the purposes of the translation in question, though, I think "accept" will suffice.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/14/2007 4:00:48 PM   
TakeYourBreath


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In relation to this post I have to say any man who lets a marriage license make his slave be any less a slave is probably just less of a master.  The true master is a master regardless.  Weakness is weakness no matter if it is from poor genetics, injury, illness, or anyother source including marriage.

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/14/2007 4:36:31 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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Fast reply:

Is it just me, or did some messages disappear?

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/14/2007 7:40:24 PM   
Domminde


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Fast reply:

Is it just me, or did some messages disappear?

Live well,
Orion


I don't suppose the missing message would have anything to do with the email I recently recieved.



_____________________________

What? ... I AM smilling

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/14/2007 7:51:28 PM   
sakidorei


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Greetings Masters, Mistresses and fellow slaves,
 
In response to a cm message i got a few hours ago ... i offer the following quotes from my own copies of the books.  i humblly offer these as well as a vouche for Master Simon's stated credentials as i have worked with those who know Him well in the past.  His quotes may not directly mirror quotes found in the books previous to John Norman's recent (in the past 8 years) updates and edits to the books however they do reflect my own publisher's copies of the text.  Additonally, they do represent what Mr. Norman is now putting forth as His versions of the Gor books.  i know first hand that Mr. Norman does approve all edits and rewrites of His material.

quote:


Free women had ambivalent attitudes toward the garmenture of slaves. They professed to approve of this degradation appropriately inflicted on mere slaves, but it was also said that they envied the slaves, the lightness of their garments, the air upon their bodies, the wonderful freedom accorded their limbs, so different from the heavy, bulky, confining layers of their own garmenture. It might be mentioned, in passing, that the Gorean free woman is commonly veiled, and that veils are denied to female slaves. This is appropriate, as they are animals. What fool would veil an animal? One of the most difficult adjustments which a free woman, enslaved, must make, is to the loss of the veil. This deprivation keenly shames her. Too, of course, her subtlest expressions are now available to the master, and this makes it easier to control her. Sometimes a new slave, thrown naked before her master, attempts to hide with one hand and arm the loveliness of her bosom, and, with the other hand, her features. “Lower your hands, slave girl,” she is told. The master then examines her, totally, her face and features. Certainly he wishes to inspect his property. A Gorean master commonly will know every inch of his slave, every curve, every crease, every wen, every pimple, every hair. How many husbands of Earth, I wonder, know as much about their wives.
Indeed, I wondered if the husbands would dare to know their own wives so thoroughly, that thoroughly, as a slave girl is known. I wondered if the wives would be terrified, to be so known. Would they then feel “too slave”? I wondered how many husbands kept their wives as slaves within their marriage, how many wives stripped and knelt upon command, how many served unquestioningly, how many begged for pleasure chains, how many were subject, if found displeasing in any particular, to binding and the lash. I wondered how many couples related in this manner, man dominant, the master, woman submissive, slave. I wondered how many couples might be so precious to one another. Each so magnificently and joyously fulfilled, living the biotruths of human nature, of man and woman, of masculine and feminine, of dominance and submission, how could either even consider leaving the other? I thought of the emptiness, the vacuity, of so many marriages. Might they not be redeemed, perhaps by so little as an act of will, a command, and a handful of thongs?
-Outlaw of Gor, Chapter 14 "I must submit"
 
But, alas, some men, I fear, purchase girls largely for self-regarding, social reasons, for example, to impress others with their wealth, good fortune, or taste. But then, too, on Earth, do not some men buy a certain car, or a certain house, or a certain painting, and such, largely to impress others? Too, on Earth some men will, in effect, purchase wives, so to speak, though the "exchange of coin" is less obvious. These women, as I understand it, are referred to as "trophy wives." There are differences, of course. On Earth, it is the woman who sells herself and, accordingly, keeps her own purchase price, so to speak. That is not the Gorean way, of course. On Gor the woman is sold by her owner, who keeps her price. I am happy to report that there is no Gorean expression which would be exactly equivalent to "trophy slave," but I am forced to admit, in all honesty, that the concept, in effect, or certainly a similar sort of concept, is not unknown on Gor. In Gorean there is an expression which would rather literally translate as "display slave," and it seems that that is much the same idea, namely, that the woman's value is seen to lie more in the ranges of a decoration, an appointment, an appurtenance, or such things, than in herself, than in the heats, services, devotions, and loves of a whole woman, a living, breathing, loving, passionate, needful female. The palanquins of rich men are sometimes followed by strings of back-braceleted, briefly tunicked, neck-chained display slaves. When the slave is walked before the master, her head and eyes remain forward. She is not to look to the left or right. She is, after all, under the eyes of her master.
-Witness of Gor, Chapter 34
 
I think then that I should mention, perhaps, particularly given the fact that an earlier paragraph might be misconstrued, and that the frightening condition it references might be understood as being typical of a given form of relationship, that there is a lovelier, warmer, more beautiful, benign sense, of "finding security on a chain." It is one familiar to thousands of loving slaves. In a typical bondage, one is cared for, nourished, sheltered, nurtured, protected, and often loved. Certainly one is, at least, desired and lusted for. How many wives, I wonder, are lusted for. One respects wives; one lusts for slaves; wives are free, and are to be treated with dignity and circumspection; slaves are owned, and are suitable objects to be put to one's pleasure. The wife consents, if she feels like it, and is so inclined; the slave obeys. The wife may dole out her favors by carefully measured spoonfuls, like medicine, in a regimen designed to reduce and torment, and thus to control, an angered, frustrated, confused, manipulated, indoctrinated, unquestioning childlike patient; the slave kneels and hopes to be found pleasing. The powerful, healthy man is aggressive and lustful; what is he to do when he realizes at last he has been mistreated, denied, cheated, starved, and shamed; he may rise up with a snarl; let the wife be dismayed to discover she is to her horror then in the vicinity of a man; what does he care; let him kick the pedestal from beneath her, and find her a collar; or let him turn his back upon her inert, righteous petulance and seek something a thousand times more desirable, what he needs, and wants, a slave; the slave does not denounce the lusts of the master; she endeavors to satisfy them, and, in this, finds her own womanhood; she does not want a weaker man; she wants a strong man, and a whole man, one it is fit for her to serve; how absurd, how embarrassing, how psychologically futile, how intellectually preposterous, to reveal one's actual nature, one's health and power, one's lust, to an offended, glorious free woman, or to waste it upon her reluctant, anesthetic body; away with the very thought; what could he be thinking of; let him seek rather a slave; the slave, you see, is the object on which it is appropriate for a man to ventilate his lust. Indeed, it is one of the things she soon learns she is for. She also learns that the human male, when he has what he wants from a woman, and fully, and with perfection, is, within the limits of the mastery, a pleasant, kindly, happy, wonderful thing. She is awed, and fulfilled, by this relationship. And, of course, it is she who, subject to his rule, and responsive to his will, has bought this about, not that she was—you understand—given any choice. She wishes to please him, of course, but she knows also that she is a slave and must do so. For even a minor error or laxity she knows she may find herself under the whip. She finds this subjection to male domination thrilling, and reassuring. Her master is not weak. There are clear standards, limits, and requirements. She must be careful of them. Commonly they are made clear to her, and the nature of the penalties which will be imposed for the least infraction thereof. She must be a pleasing slave. She is happy. This is the surely one of the deepest and most profound relationships in which a woman can stand to a man, that of slave to master, and, ideally, that of love slave to love master. It is no wonder then that we sometimes kiss our finger tips and press them to our collars, that we humbly lift and kiss the bracelets that link our wrists so helplessly, so closely, together. Do we not admire the unslippable shackles on our trim ankles, fastening them in such proximity to one another, so inhibiting our movements? They have been put on us at the pleasure of the master. Are we blindfolded? Are we forbidden to speak? Are we gagged? Are our wrists tied behind our backs? Must we kneel naked before him? We are his. Let those who can understand these things understand how it is that a slave can love her bondage, and that she would never exchange it for the jejune inanities and boredoms of freedom—how it is that she can lie contentedly, happily, at the foot of a man's couch, chained to his slave ring. Some, I suppose, will find this incomprehensible. There is nothing for it then, but to allow them to continue in their ignorance. But the woman at last has a place here, a condition, a station. She is now a slave. She now at last "belongs," and in the most profound sense of belonging, that of belonging to someone. She now "belongs" in the most profound sense conceivable, that of being owned. She realizes, with a radiant warmth that floods her, that illuminates her mind and enflames her belly, that she is now goods, a property, her master's slave. Men have found her of such interest and attractiveness, and they have wanted her so much, and so lusted for her, that they have enslaved her, that they have put her in a collar and made her theirs, that they have seen fit, in their imperious, dominating mastery to own her, and put her to their service and pleasure.
-Witness of Gor, Chapter 35
 
On Gor, of course, her relationship to the master is open, public, institutionalized, accepted, taken for granted, and celebrated, a matter of law.
On Earth, on the other hand, her bondage would normally be a private matter, between her and her master. To see her on the streets, or shopping in supermarkets, or such, one would not know she is a slave. But she knows. Many is the free woman of Earth who languishes in a sexual wilderness, who is bored, who finds her life, her work, her marriage, a drab, repetitious routine of tediums. That ends, of course, if she is placed in bondage. She now has a new, thrilling reality, perhaps a secret one, that enflames her, that makes her life worth living. She now has meaning, and worth, if only that of a slave. She kneels before the chair of her master, perhaps fully clothed, her hands clasped behind her, her head down, waiting for him to enter.
-Captive of Gor, Chapter 16 "I am chained beneath the moons of Gor"

 
~saki
Property of Master D.

 

_____________________________

Followers, do not backlead. Not only does it make leading more difficult, but it also makes it more difficult for the leader to avoid collisions.

(in reply to Najakcharmer)
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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 1:36:15 AM   
SimonofTabor


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sakidorei

........i know first hand that Mr. Norman does approve all edits and rewrites of His material.


Just to make absolutely clear, the revisions made to the books for the new editions were made by John personally. There was no other re-writing of his material (with just the odd very minor, and not significant, exception).

It may also be worth noting that the first quote provided by saki is actually from Captive chapter 14, not Outlaw as stated. It's a larger portion of the passage from which the second of my two quotes was taken. The first of my quotes, by the way, was from a passage that was not changed in the new editions, so that quote can be found in the original editions.

< Message edited by SimonofTabor -- 12/15/2007 2:16:28 AM >

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 2:02:34 AM   
camille65


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Domminde

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Fast reply:

Is it just me, or did some messages disappear?

Live well,
Orion


I don't suppose the missing message would have anything to do with the email I recently recieved.


 I too received that peculiar email.

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 5:12:02 AM   
sakidorei


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Greetings Master ~groans~ my apologies on the misattribution for the first quote ... it was a long day yesturday by the time i finally got this posted ... indeed it is Captive not Outlaw that i was quoting.  Thank You Master for the correction of my error.
 
~saki
Property of Master D.

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 6:21:08 AM   
OrionTheWolf


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Fast reply:

After checking I got that email as well. I received one similar to that, several months ago from another poster. That previous poster from several months ago, is banned from the forums I believe. It looks like accounts are being created to push an agenda. I find this humorous, as the amount I am impacted by this online stuff, I have reduced to almost nil.

What is smilezz's quote again?

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 8:03:04 AM   
Mercc


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Simon and sakidorei are certainly correct when they say that the words wives or a wife are mentioned in the Gor books. The quotations that sakidorei and Simon have provided say that the earth wife is really a slave and the institution of marriage is a shame (a contradiction of the Gorean Philosophy). The quotations do not say that the institution of marriage is a part of the Gorean Philosophy.  You cannot and Simon cannot provide any quotation from the books that say or allude to the institution of marriage is a part of the Gorean Philosophy.
Just because a word is mentioned in a paragraph does not mean that word though having meaning in one aspect has meaning in another.
Reading comprehension….

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 8:04:24 AM   
smilezz


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Good morning Sir,

I too received that eyeroll of an e-mail. Humor definately played a part in reading it....but then again, what's been going on lately here is no longer surprising me.

Have a great day!

Happy Saturday!!!

~smilezz~


(edited because i just can't type at times)

< Message edited by smilezz -- 12/15/2007 8:05:15 AM >


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 9:18:32 AM   
sakidorei


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Master Mercc ... while i completely respect any Gorean Free Man's conviction that marriage is not part of their personal Gorean philosophy i am not sure that it's an easy reach to say that slavery within marriage is an abberation of Gorean philosophy.  It's pretty clear to me that on earth Gorean slavery is almost impossible to achieve due to the laws.  Unless of course you live in a rather uncivilized place in the world.  i do think that there are some people posting on these boards who come pretty close to that actuality however.
 
As far as reading comprehension goes Master ... i think it's sort of subjective really.  The following passage says something very different to me than it obviously says to You.

quote:

On Gor, of course, her relationship to the master is open, public, institutionalized, accepted, taken for granted, and celebrated, a matter of law.
On Earth, on the other hand, her bondage would normally be a private matter, between her and her master. To see her on the streets, or shopping in supermarkets, or such, one would not know she is a slave. But she knows. Many is the free woman of Earth who languishes in a sexual wilderness, who is bored, who finds her life, her work, her marriage, a drab, repetitious routine of tediums. That ends, of course, if she is placed in bondage. She now has a new, thrilling reality, perhaps a secret one, that enflames her, that makes her life worth living. She now has meaning, and worth, if only that of a slave. She kneels before the chair of her master, perhaps fully clothed, her hands clasped behind her, her head down, waiting for him to enter.
-Captive of Gor, Chapter 16 "I am chained beneath the moons of Gor"

 
Master, You said ... " You cannot and Simon cannot provide any quotation from the books that say or allude to the institution of marriage is a part of the Gorean Philosophy."  i believe that the above quote does show how slavery can be actualized within an earthen marriage.  Again, i conceed that it's very difficult to impossible to attain a -pure- Gorean slavery on earth however, Mr. Norman seems to be asserting that slavery within marriage is possible and preferable in so far as the greatest satisfaction of the two married parties are concerned.
 
Of course this passage says nothing about marrying one's slave but nor does it recommend divorcing a free woman once she has been privately enslaved.  It seems pretty much common sense to me that Mr. Norman was simply addressing a way to achieve an M/s relationship on Earth that would take into account the laws and limitations of our own culture.  He has never been a shrinking violet in His views about the emmasculation of men in western society and the masculation of women.  Too ... one or two quotes do not an entire treatise make so again ... i think it's up to each person how it's ultimately interpreted and applied.
 
Granted the Gorean paradigm includes slavery however i tend to view Gorean philosophy as a whole as much more about living according to natural order ... than about legal institutions.  i think it's much more about the dignities, glories, and responsibilities of the Free and the rightful place of Men in society than about marriages or Free Companionships anyway.
 
~saki
Property of Master D. 


< Message edited by sakidorei -- 12/15/2007 9:25:11 AM >


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 10:18:48 AM   
EvilGenie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

My point was not that a *wife* would be more likely to cheat but that a wife who considers herself an equal partner is more likely to cheat than a wife who considers herself a slave. 



I am not particularly interested in this statement either. SOME of us have a moral compass which would not allow cheating within a marriage. In fact, sociologically, and psychiatrically,  most us of possess the said moral compass. I am not interested in sweeping generalizations. Such generalizations tend to equate to the amount of ignorance of those generalizing. Your statement was/is insulting and degrading of women at large.

I too have a heart and place the care of mine and others before myself unless it would damage me in a major way to do so. Though I am not slave or submissive, and nearly as far from that as one can be, my body is owned by my husband, who is also mine, as much as his is owned by me. We're together in this. One mark of a Dominant, Master, Mistress or whatever the term used is that they 'get this.' I look forward to seeing my husband again, living with him, staying home writing my books, working on computers, cleaning within the limits of my disabilities, seeing that he is well, well cared for and cooking for him. Does this mean that he will not do these things for me? Nope in fact he does more than I can. We are human beings not robots. Therefore, we serve each other each in our own way and role. Do I make all of the final decisions, am I deferred to always, am I placed above all other things in his life? You bet! I am Dominant, he submissive but in order to maintain this both parties needs must be served and I belong to him as much as he belongs to me. We were together 5.5 weeks during our wedding and now seperated 6 mos as I needed to return to the US due to a family death. I do not reside in the US though will until March. Do I have the freedom to cheat?? No, I do not nor would or could I ever. We take our love and our marriage very seriously and own the above mentioned moral compasses.

''Never generalize as nothing is ever general.''

< Message edited by EvilGenie -- 12/15/2007 10:55:30 AM >

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 11:18:59 AM   
ElizabethAnne


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Howdy Folks,

Gee, I DIDN'T receive an email.   Whatta a shock that is....NOT!

Liz

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 11:26:36 AM   
smilezz


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Good afternoon MzLiz...

I'm still trying to figure out why i would even get this e-mail. Ahhhh well.....there always has to be someone that has to do the drama to make themselves feel better.


Happy Saturday Ma'am!!

~smilezz~

_____________________________

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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 12/15/2007 11:27:50 AM   
Terrah


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Tal Everyone,

Due to the constraints on my time, the busiest season of all is upon me, not for Christmas, but for the coolness and the lack of rain. I work outside on the ranch a great deal, and now is the time I work the most and hardest as it is cooler and much easier for me to get out and get stuff done that I usually don't have the time for because I have to tend to other things that grow and such. So I do appologize for the delay in returning anything of value from this thread and the fact I was, for lack of better word, challenged to reply. I do have several things to say, but I am not going back some 12 pages now to answer them. Perhaps if you gave me an email and wished me to explain them, I would, seems I have more time for them.

I wanted to thank everyone for their postings on marriage and subsequent quotes from the books that I have read and completely enjoyed. Ya'll have put some real thought into this subject and as always come up with several more that relate. Perhaps I am wondering if some of the thoughts that relate would be posted as different threads might help. I for one, cannot keep up with all that has been written here with all the side comments as well. Just a thought.

I wanted to comment upon one thing only here,
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: xoxi

My point was not that a *wife* would be more likely to cheat but that a wife who considers herself an equal partner is more likely to cheat than a wife who considers herself a slave. 


I don't think that statement is very well thought out. I would say I would make a thread to that particular statement and see what happens. I do agree with Evilgenie that while not all of us lack moral standards and we would not go outside the marriage to cheat, have an affair, screw somene else, or whatever you want to call it, whether or not considering the woman equal. I do believe however before going into further comment I would make a thread for that particular subject. So I might just do that :)

I wish ya all well,

Terrah


_____________________________

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyhow." (John Wayne)

(in reply to EvilGenie)
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