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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just semantics?


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RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 5:46:43 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline
Greetings,

As to wives versus slaves being "adulterous," an actual slave  cannot BE adulterous, she cannot commit adultery, she is simply a slave.  A wife however is held within a concept of a legally contracted marraige to ONE Man within which she is held to a standard legally, and what rules her is her marriage and being the "wife", therefore, if she does react naturally to a Man as her slave nature may compel her too, she however can committ adultery simply because she is a wife.  A slave cannot simply because she is held is slavery, she is not contracted to a Man.  If she strays so to speak without the permission of her Master and gives into her slave reactions to a Man, she is simply a disobedient slave, not an adulterous woman.  She is nothing but a slave, who based usually on how she is held in Gorean slavery understands her place among Men, and that may actually be where she finds herself being disobedient and reacting to a Man very naturally who is not her Master -- opps.  But again in the end all she is is a disobedient slave if for some reason she was not supposed to pleasure a random Man and she is not held to the same "standards" a wife is by a husband.  This is part of why a slave cannot also be a wife, but instead becomes a Free Companion upon a marraige to a Man, in my opinion.


So by the nature of what a slave is to a Gorean Man, she cannot be adulterous, therefore, a wife would be more apt to commit adultery than a slave.  If you really look at those who are indignant with someone saying a woman who is a wife is more likely to committ adultery than a slave, you are looking at each concept the wrong way, a slave is simply a slave -- a wife is to hold herself to a certain standard which is why some of you feel indignation because YOU are more likely to committ adultery for the simple fact a slave cannot.  Also, if you are a slave and feel indignant with regards to such an idea of wife being more adulterous, its a very good reason why a wife and slave cannot coexist at the same time with one woman. 

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 11/2/2007 6:12:08 PM >


_____________________________


What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson


(in reply to Domminde)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 5:48:32 PM   
xBullx


Posts: 3938
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline
-fast reply-

I'm actually of the mind most of you are here simply to see me.....After all, I am the purdy one!!!

quote:


Beer, Bull?


Why yes, I do think that sounds most refreshing, don't mind if I do....

Living well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

While some people are ruled by emotion, I suspect you'll find that I'm rather obdurate.

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 6:14:08 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

-fast reply-

I'm actually of the mind most of you are here simply to see me.....After all, I am the purdy one!!!

Living well,

Bull


That is why i am here and for the beer!

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 6:30:26 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline
Babs....

~harumphs~  Contracted slave my ass.  Ya Witch!

Love ya back,

Lizzie  - to you only

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 6:32:53 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline
Snikaz

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 6:39:25 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline
smilezz,

Whats botherin ya woman?..send me a private message in CM and lets chat, aye?

FW Maahsatti

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to smilezz)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 7:15:51 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
Bingo, Irish.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 7:18:59 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Why yes, I do think that sounds most refreshing, don't mind if I do....


Have some of mine... since I prefer cider, there's plenty left.
As you can see, I've already had some:

What were we discussing again?
Bubbly semantics?
al-Aswad.
burp!


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 7:21:49 PM   
sabba


Posts: 396
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Domminde

quote:

ORIGINAL: sabba
Greetings xaria;

You asked if it was Gorean slavery. The answer is NO. A Gorean Master regards His kajira as property. When a girl attempts to serve 2 Masters, that's sharing. Sharing is a form of compromise. Gorean Masters don't compromise.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}


Actually, Gorean men were very generous with their property. It was not uncommon for an owner to give his slave to another for their toil or pleasure


Greetings Master Domminde;

Yes, Gorean men do share their property for a defined amount of time. Or they may give her away completely. What sabba was referring to was the concept that a kajira can serve two different Masters, on a permanent basis,  completely. One cannot give their mind, body and soul to a Master.....and to another man at the same time. One can try to, and one can want to, but one will fail someone in most circumstances.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}


(in reply to Domminde)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 7:37:11 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 6362
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Domminde

Actually, Gorean men were very generous with their property. It was not uncommon for an owner to give his slave to another for their toil or pleasure


You and I seem to know different Gorean men.
 
These girls may be exchanged among the men, but commonly they are not. Most masters are rather possessive about their slaves, particularly if they are fond of them.  ~Guardsman
 
K.

 

(in reply to Domminde)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 7:42:12 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline
Hello sabba,

I agee with you completely.  A slave cannot serve two men at the same time, as in having a Master AND a husband, it just does not work.  Over the years I've seen many try this, and there is a conflict of interest.  Who comes first?  Her husband she lives with?  Or the Master that supposedly owns her? 

In every case I've known, in the end, she is a wife first.   And honestly?  Both relationships suffered.  And the woman suffered most.   Everyone got hurt.   I read the post of the woman who was a slave and married to a submissive man.   In my opinion she has two choices, stay married or get a divorce.  Don't play in both worlds.   Either be a wife or a slave, no wait wrong thread.  

Take care sabba girl,

Mistress Elizabeth

(in reply to sabba)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 7:54:21 PM   
Domminde


Posts: 54
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sabba

Greetings Master Domminde;

Yes, Gorean men do share their property for a defined amount of time. Or they may give her away completely. What sabba was referring to was the concept that a kajira can serve two different Masters, on a permanent basis,  completely. One cannot give their mind, body and soul to a Master.....and to another man at the same time. One can try to, and one can want to, but one will fail someone in most circumstances.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}



I am replying to this against my better judgement, however, some force from within has compelled me to respond.

Your asertation that one slave cannot serve two masters permanently, although debatable, is not in question by me.

Within your post you presuppose that the Gorean owner of slave's places such an inestimable value on the girl, he has become stingy and places a restrictive covenance on the property when shared. While this may be true for many online and real time relations, this is not the case with the Gorean male you describe. (except that bit about uncompromising, you got that spot on)

Allow me to use my lawn mower as an example. If my neighbor comes to borrow the ol' Snapper for a "go round," I do not do a walk around beforehand checking the fluid levels to meter it use, then tell him he can borrow it for the one and a half hours it takes to mow his lawn - including a fifteen minute paga break - and upon it's return it should be in as good if not better shape that when it was taken.

The more likely scenario for Counter Earth Dude would be to tell said neighbor that it is in the garage and to help himself. Little would be thought of it till the next time his grass needed a trim. If it were not back in the garage, he would simply go get it and put it to good use.

I do understand your point sabba, I hope you can see mine.

Don't assume on the free.

atta girl

_____________________________

What? ... I AM smilling

(in reply to sabba)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 7:56:15 PM   
lindsey2U


Posts: 3
Joined: 5/28/2006
Status: offline
Within what is defined as Gorean, Gorean Custom,
Gorean ways, and Gorean living which can be achieved
here on Earth, with a little know how, there is no
institution of marriage.

To say marriage is permissible is to redefine what it
is to be Gorean. Like it or not, you must define the
“rules” to fit, so then you can call yourself Gorean.

If memory serves Leonidas clearly stated that the
Gorean ethos is set forth, [probably not fully],
within the books. Yes, the books are set in fiction,
with fictional characters, yet the underlying ethos
remains constant beyond the fictional settings. If
not, where are you drawing from; the definition of
Gorean came from the books. ..and where it came from
the books was from what is natural between Man and
woman.

You cannot subscribe to what is GOREAN, and turn
around and participate in an institution that
contracts the very thing you are claiming.


You cannot be a wife or married and be in a Gorean
Free Companionship and call it Gorean.
You cannot be married to a slave and then call that
Gorean too. Of these insitutitions contradict the
underlying philosophies of what being Gor or Gorean
IS.

Of course you can redefine to your liking but once
redefined the same is not Gorean anymore……



Master Rapture
...


(in reply to xaria)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 8:07:10 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1710
Status: offline
I think I've seen just about everything now....~chuckles, shakes head~

(in reply to lindsey2U)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 8:09:56 PM   
sabba


Posts: 396
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Domminde


I am replying to this against my better judgement, however, some force from within has compelled me to respond.

Your asertation that one slave cannot serve two masters permanently, although debatable, is not in question by me.

Within your post you presuppose that the Gorean owner of slave's places such an inestimable value on the girl, he has become stingy and places a restrictive covenance on the property when shared. While this may be true for many online and real time relations, this is not the case with the Gorean male you describe. (except that bit about uncompromising, you got that spot on)

Allow me to use my lawn mower as an example. If my neighbor comes to borrow the ol' Snapper for a "go round," I do not do a walk around beforehand checking the fluid levels to meter it use, then tell him he can borrow it for the one and a half hours it takes to mow his lawn - including a fifteen minute paga break - and upon it's return it should be in as good if not better shape that when it was taken.

The more likely scenario for Counter Earth Dude would be to tell said neighbor that it is in the garage and to help himself. Little would be thought of it till the next time his grass needed a trim. If it were not back in the garage, he would simply go get it and put it to good use.

I do understand your point sabba, I hope you can see mine.

Don't assume on the free.

atta girl


Greetings Master Domminde;

sabba appreciates Your reply....and is trying to see Your point. sabba knows better than to place any value of any sort on a slave, Master. That can change at the drop of a hat. she also knows better than to make any assumptions for the Free.

However, no matter how good Your lawnmower is, it cannot cut two different lawns at the same time. It's just not possible.

well wishes Master,
sabba{CB}


(in reply to Domminde)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 8:11:29 PM   
sabba


Posts: 396
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline
Greetings Mistress Elizabeth;

Thank You, for expressing what sabba was trying to say in a clearer and concise manner.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 8:12:17 PM   
Domminde


Posts: 54
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domminde

Actually, Gorean men were very generous with their property. It was not uncommon for an owner to give his slave to another for their toil or pleasure


You and I seem to know different Gorean men.
 
These girls may be exchanged among the men, but commonly they are not. Most masters are rather possessive about their slaves, particularly if they are fond of them.  ~Guardsman
 
K.

 


That's it, I'm goin to bed

_____________________________

What? ... I AM smilling

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 10:06:10 PM   
allyC


Posts: 776
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: Las Vegas
Status: offline
Using fast reply... Greetings, Masters & Mistresses.Hello girls. I guess what has always confused me is that we all have equal rights, period.  It just goes part and parcel with living in a civilized nation. Why would marriage have any power to change the dynamic of a master and slave if the master is strong, dominant, and skilled enough to keep it as he wants it?   We live in a society where all of the slaves, Gorean or otherwise, are not legally owned.  They are not legal chattel.  So why is the "legality" of marriage such a problem?   If legality isn't an issue one way, why is it an issue the other way?  Why is the thought of her "potentially" taking all he owns such a problem?  Either master the girl or don't.  If you master her, she won't take your stuff.  If you don't, she just might.  Even a slave who isn't married and lives beneath the same roof as her owner has the potential to take what is his.  It can happen either way. I have always believed that if a man is too weak to master his own slave, then he will rely on laws, rules, fear and the pressure from others (i.e. community) to keep her down.  If he is strong enough, he will make her what he wants her to be, legalities be damned.  I have also seen through experience that the M/s dynamic has very little or nothing to do with what society or the law allows or disallows.  It has to do with a man, a woman, and the natural reaction they have toward each other.  Well wishes, Cav's ally

(in reply to Domminde)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 10:16:42 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6619
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: online
quote:

ORIGINAL: allyC

I have always believed that if a man is too weak to master his own slave, then he will rely on laws, rules, fear and the pressure from others (i.e. community) to keep her down.  If he is strong enough, he will make her what he wants her to be, legalities be damned.


Brilliant, ally.

This is a point all too often missed regarding Gor.

The problem Tarl saw on Gor was not slavery. It was the institution of slavery, wherein the weak band together to oppress, as in the Middle East, rather than mastering on their own merits. I have no objection to a man claiming a woman as his, if he can back that claim on his own merits, provided he does not act against his chosen kin in doing so.

I do have a problem with a man being enabled by society to claim a woman he cannot back his own claim to.

That's captivity, not enslavement.

Edit:
In this instance, the gender pronoun is a default, in the absence of an animate neuter pronoun.
If a woman can claim a man and have him at her feet, on her own merits, let her.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 11/2/2007 10:18:55 PM >


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to allyC)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Is calling a slave a FC so you can marry just seman... - 11/2/2007 10:43:03 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Domminde

quote:

ORIGINAL: sabba
Greetings xaria;

You asked if it was Gorean slavery. The answer is NO. A Gorean Master regards His kajira as property. When a girl attempts to serve 2 Masters, that's sharing. Sharing is a form of compromise. Gorean Masters don't compromise.

well wishes,
sabba{CB}


Actually, Gorean men were very generous with their property. It was not uncommon for an owner to give his slave to another for their toil or pleasure


Yes, but that is an act of ownership by the owner, in regards to his property - it is not the same as the girl choosing to "belong" to two masters at the same time.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to Domminde)
Profile   Post #: 80
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