quote:

ORIGINAL: aeleberaNB

Greetings Masters and Mistresses:
Greetings girls:


a submissive can be bratty, unruly and many other things, while if a kajira tried to do that she would be punished for it.
I've seen bdsm submissives and slaves punished quite harshly for those things.  If you'd said that sometimes a submissive can get away with those things, I'd agree with you.  Within the various branches of the bdsm tree, it depends largely upon the individual Dominant.

while there are extenuating circumstances that a Master may give some room for a kajira's behavior, she knows that she is not to push those boundaries and that if she does there will be reprecussions for doing so.  Ditto for all the bdsm slaves and submissives that I know living in day in, day out, full time D/s relationships.

there are a lot of misconceptions on what a kajira is or is not, where as in my opinion there are no misconceptions of what a submissive is.  Oh?  I run into people all the time who are clueless in this regard.

the following is something that i hold near and dear to my heart:

to be a kajira it takes a lot of hard work, discipline, guidance, corrections (punishments), love, a deep desire to serve and be pleasing in all i say and/or do, to accept the corrections without whining, snivelling, complaining, twisting it to suit my needs or trying to get out of it, a willingness to learn and grow as both a person and a slave, the ability to take criticism, the willingness to be open, honest, to communicate to Master so that He can better help me when i am going through a rough time.

to be a submissive one can whine, snivel, bitch, complain, try to twist her punishments to suit her needs, be bratty, unruly, disrespectful, try to hide things from her Master, try to get out of being punished, and disrespect her Master's friends as well as her Master without fear of the severity of punishments that a kajira would go through... imho.  I got news for ya, aleabra.  She best not, if she happens to belong to any of the Dominants I have known and loved.  Punishments in D/s relationships can be quite harsh, even by Gorean standards.  Making a particular mistake twice is all it takes in some situations, to end a relationship.

there are a lot of websites out there that depict what a kajira is and what a submissive is, but to weed through all the information and find what is true and what is false takes a lot of hard work and well worth the efforts if one truly wishes to know the truth of what a kajira is versus what a submissive is.  And in the end you still won't have a perfect consensus.

slaves have no limits or rights except those that are given to them other than to not take their own lives, where as a submissive has rights and limits. slaves also own nothing except that which is given, but that which is given can also be taken should their owner wish to do so. a submissive owns everything they have.  Keep in mind that not all bdsm non-dominants are submissives.  So are, in fact, slaves.

wishing all well,
aeleberaNB

edited because i knew i would sooner or later forget to put something in my original post.  LOL - It is always makes me smile to know someone besides me does that.

quote:

Keep in mind that not all bdsm non-dominants are submissives.  So are, in fact, slaves.

quote:

slaves have no limits or rights except those that are given to them other than to not take their own lives, where as a submissive has rights and limits. slaves also own nothing except that which is given, but that which is given can also be taken should their owner wish to do so. a submissive owns everything they have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

FR-
 
Seems to me that the question of differences and similarities between Gorean slaves and BDSM sumissives and BDSM slaves boils down to a couple central points.
 
Personal Power
The Goreans of my acquaintance fall into two groups.  Those who view slaves as having no inherent personal power to give a Master in the first place, and those who believe that the moment the collar is begged and locked, all power has been relinquished until release, therefore no exchange dynamic.
 
BDSM Dominants of my acquaintance fall into two groups, with regard to BDSM slaves.  Some believe that consent is a one shot deal, power exchange made at that time, and thereafter the slave has no power to exchange on an ongoing basis.  Others view their relationship to their slave as a constant dynamic in which the slave is constantly relinquishing  complete control - they have it, but are expected to abdicate it with each breath and movement, at all times.
 
BDSM Dominants of my acquaintance fall into two groups, with regard to BDSM submissives.  There are those who view the relationship as dynamic, never static, with personal power constantly given and taken to varying degrees related to myriad other factors, with the level of Dominance and submission often being different from one aspect of the relationship to another (such as a different level in the bedroom than in the checking account).  Then there are the ones who have a pretty much set and ongoing dynamic, with a pretty stable level of Dominance and submission throughout all areas of the relationship.
 
Personal Sovereignty
 
Goreans of my acquaintance ( I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong, and should be, I thank them in advance) don't see eye to eye on the personal sovereignty issue, as it pretains to slaves.  There are several current or recent threads where this has been discussed.  It does seem, however, that the general consensus, in practical terms, is that Gorean slaves either were born without the spark and drive to seize and hold personal sovereignty, or have chosen to relinquish it.  While a Gorean slave may be seen as a sovereign individual in the eyes of the law, in day to day living, for all practical purposes, within the Master and slave dynamic, they do not.  To seize personal sovereignty on any level is to cease to be a slave.
 
BDSM dominants of my acquaintance with full time, real time, relationships with slaves tend to voice the belief that the slave does have a minimal level of personal sovereignty, but that the point is moot because it is completely dormant, abdicated into the care of the Dominant.
 
BDSM Dominants of my acquaintance with full time, real time, relationships with submissives seem to universally accept that they have and maintain personal sovereignty, but that it is restricted to the boundaries dictated by their individual relationship dynamic.
 
Rights
 
The popular view among Goreans I'm acquainted with seems to be that slaves have no rights.  When penned down on the subject, some will voice the opinion that there should be minimum standards in keeping a slave.  IOW, they should, at minimum, be treated with at least the same amount of care as a family pet.
 
I know quite a few BDSM Dominants who hold that thier slaves hold no rights whatsover, and that all rights are forfeit when the collar goes on.  There are exceptions to this viewpoint.
 
BDSM Dominants known to me tend to view submissives as having definite rights.  The discussion of exactly what those rights are is highly debated, however.
 
Here on the Gorean board, it is generally accepted as fact that “Gor is harsher than BDSM”.  To that I can only say that there is a greater spectrum of softness and harshness in BDSM (which in itself is a lot of things all lumped in together).  To say that Gorean life is always harsher or more demanding wouldn’t be accurate.  To say that Goreans punish more severly wouldn’t necessarily be accurate, either, if one is comparing them with those who live in a 24/7/365 D/s relationship, real time.  On average, they probably are.  I have, however, known some exceedingly hard BDSM Dominants.
 
Much of this whole debate seems, to me at least, to boil down to a question of degree, and absolutes with regard to these issues, IMNSHO, simply don’t hold water.  Few absolutes do, when the subject at hand is human beings.
 
Regards –
Grace
 

quote:

ORIGINAL: kimaya

Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,

Greetings aelebera,

You posted, "to be a submissive one can whine, snivel, bitch, complain, try to twist her punishments to suit her needs, be bratty, unruly, disrespectful, try to hide things from her Master, try to get out of being punished, and disrespect her Master's friends as well as her Master without fear of the severity of punishments that a kajira would go through... imho."

I don't know many submissives who are  that way at all.   It's funny. On the non-Gorean D/s board I visit, I have to defend Gor, then on the Gor board I feel the need to defend non-Gorean D/s.    *Some* submissives play the bratty role if that is the dymanic they have with their Dominant.  That is NOT the norm.  As I said, I don't know a single submissive who is allowed or encouraged to be disrespectful, or hide things from her Dominant, or be a brat, or a bitch, and not fear punishment.

Kajirae and submissives are different beings, yes, but one set of women isn't worse than the other.

Wishing all well,
kimaya{AT}

PS - apologies if anything is not clear, I'm operating on cold meds today.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeleberaNB

Greetings Masters and Mistresses:
Greetings girls:

i sought Master's permission to start this thread so as not to derail the one started by gorsub and to get the opinions of the Free and other kajirae.

while i ask that the Free and kajirae only respond to this, those who are not Gorean are welcome to post but please let those who are living Goreans and kajirae post first.

quote:

shootingstar said that BDSM is also hard work. while i agree that being a submissive is hard work, i feel that being a kajira is much harder because of the different training we go through, the thoughts, emotions and positions we are put through.

quote:

a kajira in my opinion is someone who has the fire within to serve, be pleasing in all she says and/or does, knowing that her actions and/or words reflect upon her Master and that she should be displeasing He will let her know.
a submissive while they have the desire to serve it is just that a desire.. it is not the slave heat we kajirae feel deep within that makes us go weak in the knees in His presence, that sends butterflies to our stomachs when we know that we have displeased Him or any Free.

quote:

a kajira is taught to be pleasing in all that she says and/or does, that anything less is displeasing and unacceptable.
a submissive can be bratty, unruly and many other things, while if a kajira tried to do that she would be punished for it.

quote:

while there are extenuating circumstances that a Master may give some room for a kajira's behavior, she knows that she is not to push those boundaries and that if she does there will be reprecussions for doing so.
there are a lot of misconceptions on what a kajira is or is not, where as in my opinion there are no misconceptions of what a submissive is.
to be a submissive one can whine, snivel, bitch, complain, try to twist her punishments to suit her needs, be bratty, unruly, disrespectful, try to hide things from her Master, try to get out of being punished, and disrespect her Master's friends as well as her Master without fear of the severity of punishments that a kajira would go through... imho.

quote:

there are a lot of websites out there that depict what a kajira is and what a submissive is, but to weed through all the information and find what is true and what is false takes a lot of hard work and well worth the efforts if one truly wishes to know the truth of what a kajira is versus what a submissive is.

quote:

slaves have no limits or rights except those that are given to them other than to not take their own lives, where as a submissive has rights and limits. slaves also own nothing except that which is given, but that which is given can also be taken should their owner wish to do so. a submissive owns everything they have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aeleberaNB

shootingstar said that BDSM is also hard work. while i agree that being a submissive is hard work, i feel that being a kajira is much harder because of the different training we go through, the thoughts, emotions and positions we are put through.

a kajira in my opinion is someone who has the fire within to serve, be pleasing in all she says and/or does, knowing that her actions and/or words reflect upon her Master and that she should be displeasing He will let her know.

a submissive while they have the desire to serve it is just that a desire.. it is not the slave heat we kajirae feel deep within that makes us go weak in the knees in His presence, that sends butterflies to our stomachs when we know that we have displeased Him or any Free.

a kajira is taught to be pleasing in all that she says and/or does, that anything less is displeasing and unacceptable.

a submissive can be bratty, unruly and many other things, while if a kajira tried to do that she would be punished for it.

while there are extenuating circumstances that a Master may give some room for a kajira's behavior, she knows that she is not to push those boundaries and that if she does there will be reprecussions for doing so.

there are a lot of misconceptions on what a kajira is or is not, where as in my opinion there are no misconceptions of what a submissive is.

the following is something that i hold near and dear to my heart:

to be a kajira it takes a lot of hard work, discipline, guidance, corrections (punishments), love, a deep desire to serve and be pleasing in all i say and/or do, to accept the corrections without whining, snivelling, complaining, twisting it to suit my needs or trying to get out of it, a willingness to learn and grow as both a person and a slave, the ability to take criticism, the willingness to be open, honest, to communicate to Master so that He can better help me when i am going through a rough time.

to be a submissive one can whine, snivel, bitch, complain, try to twist her punishments to suit her needs, be bratty, unruly, disrespectful, try to hide things from her Master, try to get out of being punished, and disrespect her Master's friends as well as her Master without fear of the severity of punishments that a kajira would go through... imho.

there are a lot of websites out there that depict what a kajira is and what a submissive is, but to weed through all the information and find what is true and what is false takes a lot of hard work and well worth the efforts if one truly wishes to know the truth of what a kajira is versus what a submissive is.

slaves have no limits or rights except those that are given to them other than to not take their own lives, where as a submissive has rights and limits. slaves also own nothing except that which is given, but that which is given can also be taken should their owner wish to do so. a submissive owns everything they have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Fast reply:

The only difference between kajirae and slave, is that one kis owned by a Gorean. besides that they come in many different sizes, shapes and attitudes. Anything beyond that is determined by their owner.

Live well,
Orion

quote:

to be a submissive one can whine, snivel, bitch, complain, try to twist her punishments to suit her needs, be bratty, unruly, disrespectful, try to hide things from her Master, try to get out of being punished, and disrespect her Master's friends as well as her Master without fear of the severity of punishments that a kajira would go through... imho.

quote:

The only difference between kajirae and slave, is that one kis owned by a Gorean. besides that they come in many different sizes, shapes and attitudes. Anything beyond that is determined by their owner.