RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What is this Gor stuff all about?"

Create a
Free Account

As the Collar Turns:

Collarchat.com - BDSM Forum

Home Login Search

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What is this Gor stuff all about?"

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What is this Gor stuff all about?"

Page: << < prev 1 2 3 [4]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/16/2007 1:04:48 AM

SimonofTabor

Posts: 123
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

Personally I think that the Gor series should be the source that defines what it means to be Gorean, but knowledge of the books, and a specific acceptance of the philosophies contained in them, doesn't determine who is and is not Gorean. John Norman didn't invent any of what it means to be Gorean. This isn't some strange religion with John Norman as the Messiah, and we can only be saved by following him. All John Norman has done is point us to the way things ought to be, back to how men and women were designed to interract, and to point us to some principals that, when followed, will enable us to live more fulfilled, and more natural lives. Because John Norman didn't invent the path that we call being Gorean, but merely pointed us to it, it is entirely possible that others have found it quite independently, and indeed it seems Aswad did just that. The books merely determine which path(s) are Gorean, they aren't an entry test to determine who can and cannot walk those paths.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Profile

Post #: 61

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/16/2007 2:56:14 AM

Totalmaster4you

Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline

(Fast reply)
Tal to the Free and property,
Tal to all,

The one common thing I found in the varied posts that preceded this, was that things in general are neutral. It is how the thing is used that makes the use and the user Gorean or not. Now for me the books are the source but my impression from my prior readings they taught how to look at things not addressed in the books to make new determinations. The idea of if you give a man a fish he eats for one night if you teach him to fish he eats for a lifetime. That's what I get from the books. An aforementioned example of racquetball. Racquetball is neutral. However how you play, win or lose, determines the Goreaness of your behavior. Does this mean that a man or woman can't be Gorean only their actions and the consistency of their actions cause them to be viewed as Gorean or not over a long term. But even so maybe we are incorrect in trying to make the person Gorean when only there actions can be judged.

Happy Holidays all,
TM4Y

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Profile

Post #: 62

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/18/2007 9:03:30 AM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Tal Orion,

I would have to disagree.

My angle is more like that of Simon, i.e. that- through the books- Norman put a word to something timeless. A word that serves as a point on the map, marking the center of a territory, the capital if you will. In this regard, any point will do, and the books are as good as any; also, it pays some homage to the one who depicted and named this place.

Our interpretations, however, are used to outline the boundaries of the mental territory- centered on that point- that can be considered Gorean. As has Trevelyan, I offered a suggestion regarding where those boundaries may lie, based on my own observations and interpretations, drawing the boundaries along the natural features of the terrain, where others have tried to draw it with rulers on the map in the past, much as was done with the US states.

These boundaries seem fairly compatible. The size of the gap that this bridges is, IMO, an indicator that it's very close to describing the heart of the matter. But regardless of where the boundaries are drawn on the map, the terrain is unchanged, as are the places each of us have decided to stand in that terrain. I do not seek to establish my place, as I already have one, but rather seek to ascertain the approximate boundaries of a territory that interests me.

As I see it, in the terrain of concepts, Gor is the capital "city" of the Gorean territory.

Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 12/18/2007 9:06:57 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Profile

Post #: 63

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/18/2007 3:50:14 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline

Tal Aswad,

While this may be technically correct, because we have the knowledge outside the Gor series. If someone where to read only the Gor series, and be Gorean, then it would be their spring. It can also be our spring, with this knowledge that these are timeless ideals, and use the common denominator as the Gor Series. Do you see what I am saying?

Live well,
Orion

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Tal Orion,

I would have to disagree.

My angle is more like that of Simon, i.e. that- through the books- Norman put a word to something timeless. A word that serves as a point on the map, marking the center of a territory, the capital if you will. In this regard, any point will do, and the books are as good as any; also, it pays some homage to the one who depicted and named this place.

Our interpretations, however, are used to outline the boundaries of the mental territory- centered on that point- that can be considered Gorean. As has Trevelyan, I offered a suggestion regarding where those boundaries may lie, based on my own observations and interpretations, drawing the boundaries along the natural features of the terrain, where others have tried to draw it with rulers on the map in the past, much as was done with the US states.

These boundaries seem fairly compatible. The size of the gap that this bridges is, IMO, an indicator that it's very close to describing the heart of the matter. But regardless of where the boundaries are drawn on the map, the terrain is unchanged, as are the places each of us have decided to stand in that terrain. I do not seek to establish my place, as I already have one, but rather seek to ascertain the approximate boundaries of a territory that interests me.

As I see it, in the terrain of concepts, Gor is the capital "city" of the Gorean territory.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to Aswad)

Profile

Post #: 64

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/18/2007 5:08:09 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

Tal Orion,

I believe I do. If so, then I quite agree.

Either way, considering that we now have a starting point for an outline of what it is to be Gorean, one that is also acceptable to those who come at it from the inside angle, rather than the external angle, it would be interesting to progress toward a consensus based on something on that level. Not to prevent people from crossing boundaries, but merely to establish the common denominator as a point of reference or landmark.

I also think it'd be useful in later homing in on the core of some issues, but I have to keep half a thought focused on that elusive FAQ, and those whose participation in dealing with said issues would be most valuable to me will get it anyway, so that the main interest I have is in "condensing" a rough description of what it means to be Gorean, so as to be better able to describe it to outsiders who would like to have a better idea without studying it.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Profile

Post #: 65

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/18/2007 8:06:11 PM

Maahsatti

Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

All John Norman has done is point us to the way things ought to be,

Greetings Simon,

First, I Hope my words today find you well.
Second, I would like to express how much I enjoy reading your posts, and admire the wealth of knowledge you have and the insight you give.
My question is, Do you really feel that JN's intentions were to direct anyone in any sort of direction *other* then to read his books for enjoyment/entertainment?
Personally, I do not feel JN had any desire or notion to set up any type of life guidance to anyone with his books. I do not think he had any idea that people would have ended up using his books for any sort of foundation towards developing any given lifestyle.
I feel he wrote his books for the soul reason of entertainment and to make money in doing so.I feel that when he incorporated the philosophies that he did, he only did so because it suited his story line or plot, if you will.
I feel that the fact, that his books ended up rekindling basic truths within the hearts and minds of men and women was totaly coincidental.
I agree, that the books are as Orion points out, the spring from which the river flows. At least to those who are or wish to know and understand what it is to be Gorean or rather be of a Gorean mind.

Always, wishing you well,
Maahsatti

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to SimonofTabor)

Profile

Post #: 66

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/18/2007 11:03:58 PM

SimonofTabor

Posts: 123
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

Tal Maahsatti,

I don't think John was trying to 'set up any type of life guidance' as such, no, but I don't think he wrote what he wrote purely to make money either. If his interests were purely commercial then he would probably have bowed to the wishes of his censors in order to avoid being blacklisted for so many years. Instead, he wrote what he wanted to write.

I think there is a fair degree of evidence that he was, at least in part, expressing his reaction to the trends in society in the period in which he was writing. Some aspects of what he wrote seem to be deliberately taken to an extreme to satirise the radical feminist movement of the time, for example. From everything I've read either within the books or in other sources I think he firmly believes in the general principal of the natural order etc. I do suspect though that he deliberately took male/female relationships to the extreme of master/slave as a reaction to the radical feminist position, which is in many ways the other extreme. I would imagine (I haven't asked) that his personal view is in the middle somewhere, that men should be naturally dominant and women submissive, but not necessarily to the extent of consensual slavery.

I also feel sure that although he was not writing a manual for life, part of his aim was to encourage us to think (he is a philosopher after all). He describes the problems with our world and describes a world without those problems not necessarily to tell us that the Gorean way of life is how it should be, but to show that the way things are here wasn't how it had to be, that perhaps it's possible to live differently, in a way more in line with nature. It's up to us to decide what way that should be.

Simon

(in reply to Maahsatti)

Profile

Post #: 67

RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/18/2007 11:57:05 PM

Maahsatti

Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline

Thank you Simon,

You have shed a decent light on my question and I now see it in a much clearer state.
I was a bit more cynical in my thoughts about JNs intentions but now I can see and agree with your take on his intentions.
I appreciate your taking the time to address my questions.

I wish you well,
Maahsatti

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to SimonofTabor)

Profile

Post #: 68