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What is beyond the simple definition of "What is this Gor stuff all about?"


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What is beyond the simple definition of "What is t... - 12/9/2007 8:24:31 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		First of all; a little comment to everyone about this thread. If you want to make this about slavery, just move on by. If you are only starting to discover Gor, then read and discover, but don’t automatically assume your two cents worth will impress anyone; you will most likely end up getting your feelings hurt. I doubt this will be a long thread, but I suspect it might; no strike that, I hope it might produce some valuable substance.

Tal Simon of Tabor,

Well, I'll just cut to the chase of it all. Gor for me has become less and less about the slavery aspect of anything. In fact, while discussing the slave issue is not a taboo for me, I almost get annoyed at the redundancy that has become these often repeated slave threads, same crap in a different variation. But as Norman himself must have discovered in writing the books, it is the more interesting part for the mind that simply craves animal lusts. So if you want to get their attention and hold it you have to mix the right degrees of ingredients in with the steamy shit, or discover you have become irrelevant.

This might have been a tad bit of a highjack in that other thread; and I'm notorious for that, so I started this thread. Perhaps something relevant will come out of this further dilution of the Gorean condition; a dilution I see being acknowledged to simply placate the masses. After all that is what I am getting out of all of this, in an attempt to further adapt a  labeled “Gorean” existence here in this society we must commingle it with the way things are acceptable to this society. I will say that I doubt the Gorean experiment will survive at this rate, other than in the façade of a name. I suppose that being the case it will discover its place in history; its evolutionary demise as yet simply another cliff note. Any society is only as strong as its men (and women) and their willingness to justify and maintain their way of life.   

Just as a point before I get started here, I’d be fine if we didn’t have a single slave, since the present process of having one simply destroys the Gorean example of what one is. I’m fine with the idea that free women serve the men in the absence of slaves. This is not an inference towards engaged sexuality either, so keep your frosty griddles cinched girls. As I have never found a suitable slave or someone I would in the end title as such, my free companion does an outstanding job tending to the details in my life that require a females own particular gifts. I would love to relieve some of those burdens from her shoulders but it was in the name of protecting females that didn’t need protecting that laws were passed and in this created her added burdens so I guess unless she is willing to help alter the laws she better enjoy her role.

You (Simon) attempted to bring out that the books made reference to men using their wives as slaves and such on Earth. In my opinion these weren’t designed passages to promote acceptance of this perversion, but rather comments demonstrating yet another shortcoming of the Earth male. To not live openly as his nature intended but rather to be subdued into being a backstage pervert or something like that. That he didn’t have the strength to subdue his female absolutely. They would only do it as a sideline, and as a mutual agreement. Like I said though I do believe the female slave exists, the one that is only free to be whom she is in the confines of chains. If I ever discover her, I will own her and I will certainly have no worries about laws that would confuse this, she will no more accept those as self determining laws as she would accept she is meant to be free to choose her daily routines. This woman most certainly exists, shall we pretend otherwise?

I have made several alterations to my life as I have grown to understand my version of the Gorean perspective; I find the master slave aspect to be of less importance each day. If there were less threads about it wherever Gor was discussed I would certainly find it a rather enjoyable development. However due to the natural process between the sexes I do understand the need to discuss and understand the "natural meaning of life".

I have always thought of the Gorean way to be about structure and substance; firstly between men, then between the sexes. It most certainly isn’t about just any ole thing we want it to be. The caste system offered order and understanding upon that which is expected of each man in the community. Honor is valued, in that abuse of power and flesh would be quite uncommon. That would be due to the honor amongst men factor and the degree of accountability the community required of its men. All men revered the right of freedom that another man held, in fact a man expects another man to demand his freedom and live to cherish and maintain it. Now I’m not making the Gorean man out to be a Saint, which is a long ways from being a fact. They did have the need of the Magistrate so I assume someone was perceived to be breaking the laws.

The Home Stone was something not only a soldier was pledged to support and defend, but all free citizens. The Scribe is to maintain an accurate accountability of the record and never dilute its relevance by deviating from the facts and origins of the substance matter. A Home Stone isn’t simply some damn rock or some other artifact. It wasn’t simply the grass and earth or the oar of a ship. It was the community, the soil, the water, the crops, the animals, the buildings and the free persons themselves. To swear to a Stone was to voluntarily pledge devotion and good will to your family and extended family not to mention their properties. Personal sovereignty is certainly a Gorean hallmark, but it is unattainable in the Gorean sense without the Home Stone and what it maintains. Personal sovereignty isn’t an absolute freedom, it’s about absolute responsibility.

Now I only hope that Norman understood this and that he didn’t simply stumble upon something so profound. So while the Scribe Caste (Attorneys and such) are so gifted at rewriting the true intent of laws and history, they tend to keep re-determining what the meaning of the text is and assist it to suit other than original intent, assist in making something less than what made great to begin with. While evolution was bound to take place I had hoped it would be steps forward and not simply another exercise to accommodate mediocrity. It has been said many times that Norman took the best things from the great societies of Earth’s past and made a world called Gor. Ponder on that as you make it acceptable once again to trivialize the hallmarks that made it different, or maybe even made it great.

This present human society has become great at providing the excuse to be wrong or substandard. (Ohhh, he can’t help himself for not paying attention, he has A.D.D.) Sounds like pity and sympathy for morons, my Gorean response to that is, “Fuck that!!!!”

So folks can continue to stray from the original condition as far as they like, they can adapt the “Gorean experiment” until it is yet another confused segment of this society; old relics like me shall most likely be extinct and forgotten memories soon enough. Hell Leonidas has already given up on us and he is to date the wisest Gorean I have had the pleasure to learn from. But in the end you’ll have a whole new target audience of book purchasers. That in itself is profitable and also a Gorean hallmark.

As for Orion’s comments in the other thread, he, like me finds it invigorating to debate our positions, it seems we both may need more to do. And at that, I have started what I hope could be a good thread if the character of men is to be seen in it, but the snow needs to be moved before the game starts, so until later.

Live well,

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/9/2007 10:53:25 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16520
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

At first, I was going to comment (I'm actually writing a few similar pieces in different venues today, so trust me, I hear where you're coming from), but as I reread, it strikes me that this is largely between you and Simon, so for now, I'm going to leave it there.

That said, I do think a more generic discussion of the many important issues you raise would well serve this community.

I'm buried in work for a few weeks yet, so probably someone will address this before I get to it. If not, I'll take a closer look myself.

But in short, good topic, and I'll certainly be an avid reader of this thread.

Best,

Tim

_____________________________

Yes, I still update my blog--thanks to all who asked!
http://writingtrue.blogspot.com
Gorean FAQ Threads

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/9/2007 11:38:29 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Tal and howdy Tim,

I was afraid I might get a bit too centrally focused on Simon and it might be a distraction to my intent. I want all of the men, and certainly some of the women that can understand the difference between what could be a Gorean community on Earth, able to adapt to circumstances where they must be made and yet not compromise the premise it should be.

I understand we will all have subtle differences and without doubt some major impasses that may never be breached. However I do not believe mixing and matching the values of what would be a Gorean man to the point that Gor is scarcely recognizable from any other lifestyle is the answer. Gor is primarily about manly values and traits; I’ve yet to meet a single Gorean woman that even wants an equal toehold with the men. On the contrary most are happy in their own skin and excited about their nuances that elevate their equality in some regards beyond ours. But that again is me, my hopes and dreams.

I was hoping this thread would invite depth beyond the simple lust of our loins and the bickering of what the western society will allow and bridge into things that Orion is trying to make you all take note of in his series of posts. He and frankly I would hope that Goreans would become active in their own national and local processes no matter the Home Stone they brandish. I noted in one thread that someone as astute as Simon is perceived to be was only sparked to discover a peeve, and not a call to action, as Orion had hoped. Look at all the liberties that have been ripped from a mans hands over the past few centuries, and yet when man stands and sounds the alarm bell to action, the typical response is seen, even in a community that should feel differently. Look at how in the name of liberty a woman is forbidden to surrender her will unto a man. Is it that a Government is that much more insightful as to her personal needs? If a woman wanted to submit to slavery, would that be something she is denied.

Again this thread is not about slavery; the aforementioned was simply an example of liberties that in our supposed freedom we do not have and are not allowed. I would think that the one size fits all brand of ruling is growing distasteful to more folks than just Orion and I. We can’t change the world in one shift stroke. But, what if we actually work to build a Gorean sect within the western society and stop trying to convert what would be something great into an acceptable average and mundane existence, would that be all that bad? Again the only obvious Gorean tenants that I have noted that exist beyond the fantasy story line and would be illegal off the bat is nonconsensual slavery, and the personal duels to the death. I for one could live without them if I must.

Do realize that I was addressing Simon in part, but not exclusively. Any noble and worthwhile comments that move beyond our personal lusts will be welcomed in my eyes.

Thanks,

Bull


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/9/2007 12:20:26 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

First of all; a little comment to everyone about this thread. If you want to make this about slavery, just move on by. If you are only starting to discover Gor, then read and discover, but don’t automatically assume your two cents worth will impress anyone; you will most likely end up getting your feelings hurt. I doubt this will be a long thread, but I suspect it might; no strike that, I hope it might produce some valuable substance.

Tal Simon of Tabor,

Well, I'll just cut to the chase of it all. Gor for me has become less and less about the slavery aspect of anything. In fact, while discussing the slave issue is not a taboo for me, I almost get annoyed at the redundancy that has become these often repeated slave threads, same crap in a different variation. But as Norman himself must have discovered in writing the books, it is the more interesting part for the mind that simply craves animal lusts. So if you want to get their attention and hold it you have to mix the right degrees of ingredients in with the steamy shit, or discover you have become irrelevant.


Yeah it seems that alot of us are getting tired of the same old shit. One of the reasons why I try to start some deep thinking, and/or provocative threads. Slaves are a perk, and I will go further to say, that even a Free Woman is not needed. I feel that things should be wanted, because when they are wanted we are making an active choice. Females should not get their panties in a bunch over that statement either, because if you think about it, would you want to be someone's conscious choice, or just some subconscious need?

quote:


This might have been a tad bit of a highjack in that other thread; and I'm notorious for that, so I started this thread. Perhaps something relevant will come out of this further dilution of the Gorean condition; a dilution I see being acknowledged to simply placate the masses. After all that is what I am getting out of all of this, in an attempt to further adapt a  labeled “Gorean” existence here in this society we must commingle it with the way things are acceptable to this society. I will say that I doubt the Gorean experiment will survive at this rate, other than in the façade of a name. I suppose that being the case it will discover its place in history; its evolutionary demise as yet simply another cliff note. Any society is only as strong as its men (and women) and their willingness to justify and maintain their way of life.


I understand what you are saying, but will expand further on my thoughts concerning the above. I do not see it so much as "in an attempt to further adapt a  labeled “Gorean” existence here in this society we must commingle it with the way things are acceptable to this society. ", instead I see that we must adapt it, in such a way that society will not invoke their consequences upon us, and if we choose to go against those societal consequences, then we need to accept the consequence, as we knew what it would be before we made our choice. If you remember the situation I described, where I beat the shit out of another man because he had insulted and threatened my daughter, I will tell you here and now, that I would not have had much reservations about ending his life if need be, except that there is a consequence in this society for doing such. The culture of Gor is different of course, and in some countries here, my actions may not have had a legal consequence, but now that Man's family may enact vendetta upon me. Did I dilute the Gorean Way by only beating the shit out of that Man? No, I adapted my actions, and when confronted by the police, I admitted them. Whether it is luck, or that the two officers related to the primal action of defending your offspring, and the honor of it, it does not matter, the made it so that the Man did not bring charges, and neither did I toward him for simple assault (verbal) upon a minor.

quote:


Just as a point before I get started here, I’d be fine if we didn’t have a single slave, since the present process of having one simply destroys the Gorean example of what one is. I’m fine with the idea that free women serve the men in the absence of slaves. This is not an inference towards engaged sexuality either, so keep your frosty griddles cinched girls. As I have never found a suitable slave or someone I would in the end title as such, my free companion does an outstanding job tending to the details in my life that require a females own particular gifts. I would love to relieve some of those burdens from her shoulders but it was in the name of protecting females that didn’t need protecting that laws were passed and in this created her added burdens so I guess unless she is willing to help alter the laws she better enjoy her role.


I believe that females are not so one dimensional, as to just be Free or just be slave. I believe that the two individuals, when mixed, create something, and the dominant of the two determines the direction it goes. I have said since I started posting in Gorean circles, that what we have is a hybrid of the slaves the had on Gor. I believe there are many facets to females, some facets I like, and others I do not. I look at a female and see the facets they have, and then make my choice.

quote:


You (Simon) attempted to bring out that the books made reference to men using their wives as slaves and such on Earth. In my opinion these weren’t designed passages to promote acceptance of this perversion, but rather comments demonstrating yet another shortcoming of the Earth male. To not live openly as his nature intended but rather to be subdued into being a backstage pervert or something like that. That he didn’t have the strength to subdue his female absolutely. They would only do it as a sideline, and as a mutual agreement. Like I said though I do believe the female slave exists, the one that is only free to be whom she is in the confines of chains. If I ever discover her, I will own her and I will certainly have no worries about laws that would confuse this, she will no more accept those as self determining laws as she would accept she is meant to be free to choose her daily routines. This woman most certainly exists, shall we pretend otherwise?


If this woman exists, where is she? Is she not in every female, some more than others? Are you looking for the one that is 100% this way? If so, I wish you luck my friend. It is not that I do not believe they exist, it is I believe they exist in concept only. That the way of our world prevents this concept from manifesting fully. I will not use this as an excuse to not push for this though, it is that I believe that many generations of Living Goreans are needed to be consistent in apply that pressure, to bring this concept to a physical manifestation. Some may say I am settling, but instead I am bringing out the "hybrid" slave that can walk in both worlds, because we do have to exist in the world as it is, but we can apply things to adapt it more to our liking.

quote:


I have made several alterations to my life as I have grown to understand my version of the Gorean perspective; I find the master slave aspect to be of less importance each day. If there were less threads about it wherever Gor was discussed I would certainly find it a rather enjoyable development. However due to the natural process between the sexes I do understand the need to discuss and understand the "natural meaning of life".


I completely agree, and do not see anything to add here. Maybe I myself am a hybrid between Warrior and Scribe, I have not found a single Gorean caste that I agree or identify with 100%.

quote:


I have always thought of the Gorean way to be about structure and substance; firstly between men, then between the sexes. It most certainly isn’t about just any ole thing we want it to be. The caste system offered order and understanding upon that which is expected of each man in the community. Honor is valued, in that abuse of power and flesh would be quite uncommon. That would be due to the honor amongst men factor and the degree of accountability the community required of its men. All men revered the right of freedom that another man held, in fact a man expects another man to demand his freedom and live to cherish and maintain it. Now I’m not making the Gorean man out to be a Saint, which is a long ways from being a fact. They did have the need of the Magistrate so I assume someone was perceived to be breaking the laws.


Other Men's steel and all that. Saint? I do not look at things in such a way, as to reflect good and evil. A good man can do evil things, and an evil man can do good things. Why is this? Because the capacity for both exists in all of us, and it is our codes that guide us in what we do. One man's code may determine that something I do is evil, where as my code determines that it is good, and we both know where the line will be determined.

quote:


The Home Stone was something not only a soldier was pledged to support and defend, but all free citizens. The Scribe is to maintain an accurate accountability of the record and never dilute its relevance by deviating from the facts and origins of the substance matter. A Home Stone isn’t simply some damn rock or some other artifact. It wasn’t simply the grass and earth or the oar of a ship. It was the community, the soil, the water, the crops, the animals, the buildings and the free persons themselves. To swear to a Stone was to voluntarily pledge devotion and good will to your family and extended family not to mention their properties. Personal sovereignty is certainly a Gorean hallmark, but it is unattainable in the Gorean sense without the Home Stone and what it maintains. Personal sovereignty isn’t an absolute freedom, it’s about absolute responsibility.


Complete agreement here.

quote:


Now I only hope that Norman understood this and that he didn’t simply stumble upon something so profound. So while the Scribe Caste (Attorneys and such) are so gifted at rewriting the true intent of laws and history, they tend to keep re-determining what the meaning of the text is and assist it to suit other than original intent, assist in making something less than what made great to begin with. While evolution was bound to take place I had hoped it would be steps forward and not simply another exercise to accommodate mediocrity. It has been said many times that Norman took the best things from the great societies of Earth’s past and made a world called Gor. Ponder on that as you make it acceptable once again to trivialize the hallmarks that made it different, or maybe even made it great.


Let us not forget that it is the Scribe caste that first writes the laws, from what is told to them by those in charge. I am not sure the word "best" is applicable, I believe he brought forth what was naturally right, from his perceptions. I do not see him as some type of prophet, or herald, but merely a philosopher that has provoked much thought about these things, and his arguments are in the series. The problem is separating the parts that are his arguments, the parts that are fluff, and the parts that are there to make money.

quote:


This present human society has become great at providing the excuse to be wrong or substandard. (Ohhh, he can’t help himself for not paying attention, he has A.D.D.) Sounds like pity and sympathy for morons, my Gorean response to that is, “Fuck that!!!!”


Add my "Fuck that!!!" to yours.

quote:


So folks can continue to stray from the original condition as far as they like, they can adapt the “Gorean experiment” until it is yet another confused segment of this society; old relics like me shall most likely be extinct and forgotten memories soon enough. Hell Leonidas has already given up on us and he is to date the wisest Gorean I have had the pleasure to learn from. But in the end you’ll have a whole new target audience of book purchasers. That in itself is profitable and also a Gorean hallmark.


If Leonidas wishes to give up, that is his choice. I will continue to debate, hope for opposition, and in the fire of provocative debate, maybe the truth will be brought forth. Humans are a diverse and adaptable species, regardless of modern times, and to say there is only one way to the goal, is to underestimate what we are naturally. Somewhere amid all of this, there are truths, and they are not meant to be realized by all of us at the same time. It is much the same way with many other manifestos for how to live life. They must be read, studied, applied in the world, and then examined. This process must be continual, and thought must evolve as much as anything else, otherwise as a great mind has said "that which does not evolve, becomes extinct.

quote:


As for Orion’s comments in the other thread, he, like me finds it invigorating to debate our positions, it seems we both may need more to do. And at that, I have started what I hope could be a good thread if the character of men is to be seen in it, but the snow needs to be moved before the game starts, so until later.

Live well,

Bull


In a different place we would hunt, wrestle, drink, and wench together, or what have you. During this time we would speak, and learn from that interaction. For now we have only this forum to interact in. I look forward to the day I can travel north west, and share that BL.

Live well my friend,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/9/2007 12:32:01 PM   
Domminde


Posts: 54
Joined: 9/15/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Bull - Nice thread and I will be interested to see which direction it takes (probably salvery).

Your comments really articulate the problem with the evolution of a society as it advances technologically and that is pandering to the lowest common denominator.

Now this is done with the best of intentions and in the interest of "fairness."

Take heart dear Goreans just as the road to hell is paved with "good intentions" it is also contrary to nature and arguably we Goreans are all about natural order. I am confident that the permissive society will eventually collapse and give way (most likely after generations of anarchy) to a  more agreeable existence. I do not grieve for future societies but envy their potentials.

As for survivng as a Gorean in today's world - I define myself as a Gorean by my principles and philosophy, I have realized very few situations where those need be compromised at all.

Again, nice thread and it should be interesting ... now how bout another slave topic?

I wish you most well

_____________________________

What? ... I AM smilling

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/9/2007 1:02:42 PM   
SimonofTabor


Posts: 123
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

For me, Gor was never really about slavery, but about much more than that. You've articulated some of that very well, and I find myself in agreement with much that you've said, as I suspected would be the case.

I don't think John stumbled on anything by chance. He's a Professor of Philosophy, and as such is someone who has no doubt given much thought to all that is wrong in our world, and how it really ought to be. The Gor books are full of passages that describe how bad things are here on Earth. Just as one example, it has been observed that he spotted the damaging effect that the radical feminist movement was having, and that certain elements of his books are, at least in part, satirising some of the more ridiculous statements made by radical feminists back in the 1960s. As another example, he's also known to be a lover of beauty, and clearly realised the damage we were doing to this world we live on. Indeed, as early as the third book there is a prediction by a Priest-King that we will have destroyed our world within a thousand years.

The Gor books are not a manual for how to live, but a work of fiction. However, within them John has not only identified many of the problems with the world we live in, but given some solutions to those problems, and there is certainly much of value within the pages of the books, much that we, on Earth, can learn from. You've quite rightly identified many of them. You're right that the books are primarily known for the slavery aspect, but as you rightly say there is much more than that there.

I don't seek to trivialize anything (and I don't for an instant feel that I've done that), but when I'm studying a particular subject I have a duty to take into account all the evidence within the books. Your suggestion about why the passages I referred to about slavery within marriage are there is an interesting one, and one I will consider, but I'm far from convinced at the moment. I have in the past changed my views on things in the face of either a passage I'd not seen before, or an interpretation I'd not thought about before, and while I have to admit I don't at present think that's likely in this case, it's possible.

The slavery in marriage subject has been one in which you and I have clashed, but I feel confidant that will be the exception, not the rule. I'm not likely to become a regular poster here, as time simply doesn't allow for that, but it's my hope that you'll find more in what I have to say when I do post to agree with than to disagree with. Time will tell though.

One final comment, for now. I'm most definitely of the Caste of Scribes, but I'm not a lawyer, any more than I'm a politician. Although I have a number of responsibilities now that take up much of my free time, first and foremost, at heart, I'm someone who studies what the Gor books are saying, and who tries to help others to understand the books and what they have to say to us.

I wish you well,

Simon

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/9/2007 2:00:28 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		Tal Gorean men,

I have not been following postings in this forum closely for about a month mostly because of  work; but also going back and reading old posts by Leonidas and others, and contemplating what I have learned so far, and how to apply it to my life.

I have skimmed through several of the posts in the thread where this discussion started, and here in this one.  I think this is an important discussion, and want to add my comments.  If I am off track as to what is being discussed, I am sure you will point it out to me.

I am a conservative Gorean.  For me, what is in the books is Gorean.  Anything that differs from what is in the books, to the extent of the difference, is not Gorean.  Having said that, Earth is not Gor, and so while what is Gorean does not change, I feel that it needs to be adapted or interpreted to meet conditions here on Earth.  For example, on Gor (at least "civilized" Gor of the cities) Free men and women take an oath of allegiance to the Home Stone of their city-state, and become citizens.  As I have written before, I feel that this allegiance to the sovereign political entity is at the heart of what it means to be a Gorean, of equal importance to the notion of being sovereign in your own domain.  On Earth, of course, there are not literal "Home Stones" and for at least the last couple of hundred years the nation-state has replaced the city-state as the political entity where sovereignty resides.  So my adaptation or interpretation of the Gorean allegiance to the Home Stone of one's city is to be allegiant to my city, state and nation, and to be the best citizen I can.  I think I am being Gorean in doing so, and in my mind I say "I owe it to my Home Stone" even though I know that literally speaking there is not a Home Stone I am being allegiant to.

On Gor, there are Free Women and slaves.  If I were on the planet Gor, and I met a Free woman of my city, I would respect and protect her.  I owe it to my Home Stone to do so.  If she and I developed a relationship, we might become Free Companions.  I would honor my contract of companionship with her for the duration of our companionship.  Within that relationship, I would assert dominance and she would give submission, but as my companion in the order of nature, and definitely not as my slave.  On the other hand, if our relationship had not developed into a Free companionship, but rather she had begged to become my slave, I would have enslaved her, and she would be my property.  Similarly, if I was out in the no-mans land between cities and came upon an unprotected Free woman of a different city from my own, I would be legally and morally justified in enslaving her, despite her wishes, if I chose to do so.  I might even, as many a young tarnsman has done, raid a hostile city with the sole intent of making a foreign free woman my slave.

Here on Earth, I am constrained by the law, and I owe it to my Home Stone to obey that law, at least until I can get it changed.  In the United States, from a legal point of view, I can neither make a woman my free companion, nor my slave.  I can marry one woman if I choose, and all the rest are women I do not have a legal relationship to.  This area is changing, as fewer people seem to be buying into the concept of marriage for life.  Frankly, I see us moving towards more of a free companion sort of relationship, and I think eventually the law will come to reflect this.  I think that one day it will be possible to enter into a legal sort of free companionship, perhaps for the purpose of having and raising children, but with fewer constraints on both parties.

Slavery remains illegal in the United States.  Even for the most Gorean man, it must remain a consensual relationship, but that consensuality only really has to be for the purpose starting and ending the slavery.  I assume that a Gorean man would properly value and manage his property.

Now for marriage.  If I were an unmarried Gorean man, living here on Earth, I would not marry.  If I wished a free companion, I would draw up a contract of companionship which would outline our rights and limitations within the relationship.  There might be a few issues like health insurance, but I would handle it.  If I wished a slave, I would explain that as a slave she would lose all rights, except the right to end her slavery, and that she could expect me to act so as to increase her value to me as my slave.  If she chose to be my slave, then she would be that slave, with only one right, to end her slavery.

Where it gets sticky is when a Gorean man is already married to someone.  Marriage conveys legal rights that are not the same as the rights given to a free companion or to a slave.  A slave on Gor has no rights.  A female free companion on Gor has some rights, but they are not the same rights held by a wife on Earth.  Probably the cleanest solution for a married Gorean man on Earth would be to divorce his wife, and then either enter into a free companionship with her, or enslave her.  I personally am not willing to do that.  Put it down to not yet being fully Gorean, or put it down to whatever  you want.  My own solution is to retain my marriage, and make clear what rights she now has in the relationship as far as I am concerned.  She has some property and legal rights that a Gorean free companion or slave would not have, but the rights between us are clear.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan

< Message edited by Trevelyan -- 12/9/2007 2:08:53 PM >

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/9/2007 2:02:09 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		P.S.  Leonidas' girl Edana has told me twice that he is just extremely busy with other stuff right now.

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/9/2007 3:41:18 PM   
Torvold


Posts: 34
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Interesting topic... I pretty much agree with everything you had to say Bull, with one exception.

The homestone was not something that all social groups identified with.  To me, the concept of a homestone (as well as its less physically delineated equivelent in other gorean cultures) refers to the idea of dedicating yourself to something larger than yourself. People too often confuse loyalty and honor. Honor is a personal thing. No one can define or limit it to one exact definition. Loyalty is basically keeping of faith. Those of the cities, even the individual peasant with his personal homestone, keep faith, and do honor to it with their behavior. That is where the value lies.

Personally, I have always identified with 2 groups in particular. The Wagon People and those of the North. Niether of these groups pay hommage to a homestone, but each group does identify with and keep faith with a collective belief. Just a few thoughts.

_____________________________

"There are 2 kinds of women, slaves... and slaves."

"The Free Woman is a riddle, the answer to which is the collar."

Oderint dum metuant!

May you be drunk in Valhallah an hour before the christian gods know you are dead.

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 9:57:09 AM   
Vanatru


Posts: 300
Joined: 4/16/2004
Status: offline 		Greatings Bull,

I particularly resonate with your appeal about the dilution of gor; it’s a rather old topic that has been discussed at length with no real resolution for at least the last 8 or 9 years that I’m aware of (I’m sure that it started a bit before then even). I considered giving some background on the issue, but those that were there don’t need to know, and those that weren’t it wouldn’t really help and/or don’t really care.

I’m no closer really to seeing a solution for the dilution. Many things have been tried: exclusion, inclusion…, and we still wind up with 51 flavors of gor. For a number of the old timers, the solution was withdrawal from the public arena and their insight lost. The only thing that has remained –fairly– consistent is the books themselves.
Maybe the only real solution is those that have a more expansive view of gor, men like yourself, Orion, etc to continue being involved in the public arena of gor. I know that when the mass exodus occurred, it hurt the community as what was left was the taverns, new gor, and the like. Frankly, I’m surprised at how long the core of the gorean community has continued to last, and looking at it, it has only been because of the few strong examples that it has. Once these people are gone, will the core die as well? That’s the real question.

It’s hard to pass on the torch when those that could aren’t interested in doing so. If anything, the divisions between those that did have a lot of influence has only added to the rot. Maybe there is enough comradery among those that remain that the past divisiveness has been laid aside for the greater good of the whole.

Best Wishes for the Holidays,
Van

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 10:20:56 AM   
DiurnalVampire


Posts: 8095
Joined: 1/19/2006
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		I am curious enough to ask a question that seems inline with this topic. If it is not, then simply ignore my post.
How much of the trouble and redundancy and all that comes from those who find the idea of the Gorean Lifestyle alluring but havent paid any attention to what it actually entails?  Unfortunately, there are some calling themselves Gorean who have never read the books, but like the idea of the Male led homes and what they think they have learned of the lifestyle in the forums and other research.
I know I see many many threads come up of "What is Gor". I am fairly sure you are as tired of answering that question as we are of debating what the difference between a submissive and a slave is on our side. Do you look at what some people are living, and calling a Gorean lifestyle and think they are simply Male Dominants from my side, who have decided to give themselves a title?

DV


_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to Vanatru)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 10:58:41 AM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline 		DiurnalVampire

In this case, the key disagreement is between Bull and Simon, both of whom have read the books and know them well.  They disagree about a specific point.

Some of the "What is Gor?" threads are generated by people who have or are reading the books, and are testing their understanding. 

Some of the threads are generated by pople who are curious enough to post, but not curious enough to do the work.

There are all kinds of people that call themselves Gorean, and they all have their own definition of what that is.  For myself, I have my own definition, which I do my best to live.  I have tested my thoughts here, and while some have disagreed, I feel I am generally on track.  No doubt many of those I would disagree with feel the same way.

Trevelyan

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to DiurnalVampire)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 11:13:41 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37391
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, I am not absolutely on track here, but it seems that the 'dilution' of Gor is somewhat otherworldly in some respects, the books describe alot of cultures and what worked and didn't so while it may not be popular opinion, in my view, Gorean space is a pretty wide sandbox to play in, and still be Gorean. But it is about living life honorably, and with gusto, as you find it. 

Ron 

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to Trevelyan)
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RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 12:05:05 PM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		(using fast reply)

Greetings

For many years now I have seen the outcry and debate that follows regarding the apparent dilution of things Gorean.  Undoubtedly when you look at the reason that started the debate in the first place it was because someone did not agree with the views someone else has/had regarding a particular practice.  I have even seen this outcry lead to “I will fight no more forever” speeches whose intent was clear, agree with me or I am leaving.

Ok so the problem is practice vs application of philosophy.  In order to determine what is practice and what is philosophy you must be willing to think outside of the box called practice to begin with.  When the answers are not what we expected we can not hide behind practice, or philosophy for that matter, both must be considered.  Even Norman showed us that practice is not always the be all and end all of a concept for philosophy can and does often have different applications of practice.  (As seen by the diversity within sub cultures in his books and clear statements from the author in this regard).

Bull stated:

quote:

In my opinion these weren’t designed passages to promote acceptance of this perversion, but rather comments demonstrating yet another shortcoming of the Earth male. To not live openly as his nature intended but rather to be subdued into being a backstage pervert or something like that.


Indeed that is your opinion, yet others can formulate a different one especially considering passages that make the same kind of statements regarding free companionships.  (See the infamous Blood Brothers quote regarding companionship and contractual slavery).  See if we look at the statements Norman made regarding marriage and slavery, companionship and contractual slavery, both basically stating the same thing, is there contradiction or is there the concept of moving outside of practice.  Is it still a “perversion”? Or is Norman suggesting that despite commonly held practices you can still apply philosophical codes?  And in that lays your foundation for freedom.

Bull also stated:

quote:

Look at how in the name of liberty a woman is forbidden to surrender her will unto a man.


Is she?  What is the basis for this statement?  The lack of institutionalize slavery perhaps?  What prevents a woman surrendering her will to a man?  What law prevents her from doing this in her most intimate personal relationship?  Didn’t Norman suggest otherwise in his statement re married slaves and Earth?  Isn’t it further eluded to in his statements re contractual slavery and companionship?  Isn’t it even further suggested in the statement do not ask but proceed to do so?

What Bull is trying to suggest is that we need to practice cultural codes in order to understand the philosophical codes, therefore trying to create a  great divide.   Basically it is a matter of one person’s opinion re practice and philosophy against another person’s opinion re practice and philosophy.  Who is right?  What if we created a poll would public consensus be enough to determine a winner?  What if others don’t agree with the winning answer, must they deny their own beliefs for status quo?  Is that the definition of Gorean or freedom?

Despite what anyone says, the greatest practice (and the one that draws most of here to begin with) is slavery.  The centre (even if it is denied) of this discussion and others just like it.  Why else would anyone see a “need” to create a mini community outside of the communities we currently live in?  To have a  Home Stone?     Live together and call it companionship?  Have honor?

(It is not about so called rights either (ie slaves have non).  I have the right to have an abortion, never did it yet, nor do I have any desire to do so.  I also had the right to sue my x husband out of everything he had at divorce, didn’t do that either.  Having the right and using the right are two different things.  What you will do vs what you can do will be tempered by philosophy (morality), not law in this regard).

So what exact practice must we implement in order to embrace the philosophical codes?  When is the line drawn between how much or how little cultural quirks/perks we incorporate in our lives discount us from having the Gorean label?  These answers have never been adequately explained, rationalize or carved in stone.  One thing is for certain every attempt has always drawn on the institution of slavery, there is no escaping it.  We as a community seem fixated and drawn to this aspect.  We discuss it more then any other topic and argue it passionately.   We appear to need it in order to be.

Here is what must happen:

    -A consensus of the parameters that define who is and who is not Gorean (or what is and what is not).
    -Full community support of these parameters.
    -Full community participation and implementation of these parameters.
    -Full community policing and enforcement.

(When I state community I do mean full community not just segments.  We already have segments.)

Will it happen?

In my opinion, unlikely.   I am also willing to bet, slavery will be part of the process and the greatest divide.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 12:45:24 PM   
Vanatru


Posts: 300
Joined: 4/16/2004
Status: offline 		Actually, something very close to this happened at one point (there were those that abstained as a waste of time). It became mired in committee.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca

...
Here is what must happen:

   -A consensus of the parameters that define who is and who is not Gorean (or what is and what is not).
   -Full community support of these parameters.
   -Full community participation and implementation of these parameters.
   -Full community policing and enforcement.

(When I state community I do mean full community not just segments.  We already have segments.)

Will it happen?

In my opinion, unlikely.   I am also willing to bet, slavery will be part of the process and the greatest divide.

Jahna


(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 4:33:02 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

I'll put some quotes in here to make the context apparent.

quote:

Gor for me has become less and less about the slavery aspect of anything.


Quite. Admittedly, this is a forum regarding those things. But, yeah, it's getting way too much air time.

quote:

a dilution I see being acknowledged to simply placate the masses.


If there were some "official" stratification, kind of like how the Jews have the Torah, the Midrash, the Qabbalah, etc., that might not be a bad thing- the sheep have their place, after all- but in the absence of that, one is stuck with everything on a single level, which can be frustrating. To be sure, placation is not what has inspired me to spend time here.

quote:

After all that is what I am getting out of all of this, in an attempt to further adapt a  labeled “Gorean” existence here in this society we must commingle it with the way things are acceptable to this society.


Not really. In order for a Gorean lifestyle to be deemed acceptable by society, it must have a form that society finds acceptable. Living in a way that is not acceptable to society will lead to repercussions, unless one can find enough people of like mind to pull off some dream-project with a tropical island or whatever. But we still have the ability to choose to live as we wish, and to accept the repercussions for doing so. Consider yourself an insurgent in hostile territory, if you will. Or be a part of society. Which of these will be the lesser compromise, I can't answer for anyone but myself.

quote:

I will say that I doubt the Gorean experiment will survive at this rate, other than in the façade of a name.


There have always been voices of dissent. Some of these have been naturalistic and objectivist in their angle. Some of those could arguably be called Gorean. And if there is truly a place for the Gorean lifestyle in this world, then it will keep floating to the surface from time to time. Truth can be hidden, but not killed. And nature is truth. So I think the question then becomes whether the Gorean lifestyle is truth, nature, both, or neither.

quote:

Like I said though I do believe the female slave exists, the one that is only free to be whom she is in the confines of chains.


Here's a place where the books probably make a misstep. There's plenty of slaves in this world, male and female. However, they're slaves to something bigger, be that their society, their dieties, or whatever else has been handed to them. A few have what it takes to change the focus of their slavery to a single person. And some people have the skills, whether instinctually or learned, to mold someone into the slave they want.

With the right skills and angle, I'd say about 2/3 of the population, either gender, can become useful slaves.

Of course, some are less work than others in this regard.

quote:

I have always thought of the Gorean way to be about structure and substance; firstly between men, then between the sexes.


Between people. Like any way that deals with the world beyond oneself.

quote:

The caste system offered order and understanding upon that which is expected of each man in the community.


Which is what we have today, just a bit more diffuse.
Expectations give us the world we now live in; is it to your liking?

quote:

Honor is valued, in that abuse of power and flesh would be quite uncommon.


In theory. In practice, I doubt it. Even societies that value honor very highly, and have a shared notion of it, people tend to fall short on a regular basis. Consider for a moment that what you hold to be honorable is no different in its representation in your mind than any other value, and that there is no difference in the thoughtforms you have created on your own and those that you have passively accepted in the course of being reared in the west.

quote:

They did have the need of the Magistrate so I assume someone was perceived to be breaking the laws.


Laws are not the be-all and end-all. They are the band-aids to deal with human weakness.

quote:

The Home Stone was something not only a soldier was pledged to support and defend, but all free citizens.


Ah, but the modern soldier is not pledged to the Home Stone, as there isn't one to be pledged to.
And the modern soldier does not fight for survival and freedom, but political agendas.
A few counterexamples exist, but those are usually branded terrorists.
Alternately, they're called insurgents or somesuch.

Only the agendas of the internationally recognized nation states are held to be acceptable grounds for engagement.
And only the mutually agreed upon game of money is an acceptable form of combat.
Honorable combat is not at all a concern, but "legitimate" combat is.

Actually defending a western Home Stone is an entirely theoretical scenario at best, right now. And if we look at the examples offered up by recent history, then, in the example closest to my own heart, the citizens, not the soldiers, were the core of the defense in question, as I think it should be. The military basically surrendered, and I'm not sure Roosevelt fully realized the nature of the situation when he said "look to Norway."

quote:

Personal sovereignty is certainly a Gorean hallmark, but it is unattainable in the Gorean sense without the Home Stone and what it maintains.


Not unattainable, but probably unsustainable.

quote:

Personal sovereignty isn’t an absolute freedom, it’s about absolute responsibility.


Actually, sovereignty is the externalization of internal freedom, or it's a hollow thing, a comfortable- and perhaps necessary- illusion. Consequences are inescapable, and thus one could possibly say it's about absolute accountability. But responsibilities are quite consciously shouldered, or they have no value at all. A man can be sovereign without taking responsibility for his actions. He'll still be a sovereign man, just a really crap excuse for one.

Even so, I'd say it's critical to put the horse in front of the cart here, and not the other way around.

quote:

Now I only hope that Norman understood this and that he didn’t simply stumble upon something so profound.


Perhaps he did. But in examining people's meanderings regarding the various topics that pertain to Gor, it appears to me that the Gorean lifestyle is more of a waterhole, where people of a certain disposition meet up along a certain journey, while the Gor series of books are more like a Rorschack test of sorts. Basically, people will seek patterns and meaning everywhere, because that's how we're wired. And sometimes we find what we think we've found, while other times what we think we found, we've actually created. It seems to me that people uncover layers in the books that are so much of a stretch that it appears more likely that the books serve as a mirror or somesuch, which we then use to examine ourselves and arrive at various conclusions, much as a Koan serves to distract the mind so that it can arrive at the truth in its own way.

Of course, I've also been accused of overanalyzing such things. Perhaps Norman is just brilliant and we should be rightly awed at his prowess. Or perhaps he started something that we need to finish, including correcting whatever mistakes he made along the way and, in doing so, to stop centering our universes on Norman's navel. (That finger is not pointing in any specific direction, so whoever feels it may be pointed at them, they've created truth.)

quote:

While evolution was bound to take place I had hoped it would be steps forward and not simply another exercise to accommodate mediocrity.


Evolution is a horse like any other: if you want to go somewhere with it, you ride it.
Otherwise, it'll just flounder about, grazing randomly here and there.
There's definitely a direction to that, too, of course.
But it is not one of our own choosing.

quote:

It has been said many times that Norman took the best things from the great societies of Earth’s past and made a world called Gor.


Ah, yes, but what story is replete without its flaws, its antagonists, and its conflicts?

I'd assume that, except insofar as one can say that any human culture is worthwhile by virtue of being human (which smacks of the sameness argument again), many of them are probably there as something that falls far short of ideal, and some are probably truly warnings to be heeded, rather than examples to be emulated. Again, storytelling and selling books and all that. There's bound to be a lot of window dressing and so forth.

quote:

Ponder on that as you make it acceptable once again to trivialize the hallmarks that made it different, or maybe even made it great.


And, of course, consider that these places did not survive, except in the form of present nations.
If they were ideal in any way, or suited to human nature, why did they change?
Was that change an improvement, or a debasement?
How and why did it happen?

Will the same happen again if one realizes a Gorean union (a nation seems unsuitable) on Earth?

quote:

This present human society has become great at providing the excuse to be wrong or substandard.


More like it's been providing room for it, than providing excuses.

quote:

(Ohhh, he can’t help himself for not paying attention, he has A.D.D.)


That's one of the various labels the doctors bandy about when discussing me. As far as I can tell, it hasn't prevented me from paying attention to anything worth my attention. It has, however, prevented me from living up to certain expectations. Just like I'm sure the venerable Stephen Hawking has been prevented from being a football star, but not from making significant contributions to the fields of science where he participates. Neither of us would be well integrated in the societies of the planet Gor, although I suspect I have a couple of legs up on him in that regard (pun intended). This world, however, wherein humans are not held back, allowing them to have room for some deficits, allows people to excel in some areas, as a big merit is not so much held back by a small deficit.

quote:

Sounds like pity and sympathy for morons, my Gorean response to that is, “Fuck that!!!!”


The imagined tone of the imagined statement sounds like pity. The content is fairly spot on. While there are certainly morons around who get a label attached that somehow magically entitle them, many don't. Somehow, I made it through school quite fine with two moderately severe impairments and no labels for either of them. But there are also other schools that would've turned me into the most successful Columbine-style juvenile spree killer in modern history (there's a downside to moral flexibility and planning skills). Long story short, the right circumstances turned a potential psycho into a constructive member of society who has already exceeded the expected mean lifetime total GNP contribution for his country. My preference is for how it actually turned out, not how it might have, and I suspect others might concur.

Again, no sympathies for the morons, and quite aware that some deficits need to be dealt with, some harshly.

But oversimplification is suited for amoeba, not humans.

(Again, my finger is just drifting.)

quote:

So folks can continue to stray from the original condition as far as they like


The question being what the original condition is, how far is too far, and why stay at a fixed point?

quote:

As for Orion’s comments in the other thread, he, like me finds it invigorating to debate our positions, it seems we both may need more to do.


It's certainly more interesting to cover the topics with substance to them than those without.

quote:

And at that, I have started what I hope could be a good thread if the character of men is to be seen in it


So one hopes.

Let me know if you'd prefer for me to butt out.
Mine is admittedly a fringe view.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 4:41:06 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

Gor is primarily about manly values and traits;


For a man, certainly. Why should we be concerned with how to live as women?
But without a flip side to the coin, it's also woefully incomplete.
And some find a flip side in the books.

What worries me more, is that while the men debate the male side of the coin, the FW are silent.
Is there nothing of substance to being an FW, and nothing that bears debating?
Do FW take to it like ducklings to a pond, while men struggle?
Or is simple complacency to blame for this?

quote:

I’ve yet to meet a single Gorean woman that even wants an equal toehold with the men.


Naja made a rather insightful comment on this topic elsewhere. Again, Jim is also quite accurate.

quote:

But, what if we actually work to build a Gorean sect within the western society and stop trying to convert what would be something great into an acceptable average and mundane existence, would that be all that bad?


Some Initiates may be thinking somewhat related thoughts...
Were El-Shaddai and Metatron of such an inclination?
That's a topic for a thread of its own, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 4:47:47 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Orion,

quote:

Maybe I myself am a hybrid between Warrior and Scribe, I have not found a single Gorean caste that I agree or identify with 100%.


Perhaps the non-Gorean caste you are thinking about is that of the Samurai, or the Priest King?

Or maybe even the Shepherds of Sumer?

quote:

The problem is separating the parts that are his arguments, the parts that are fluff, and the parts that are there to make money.


I would add: determining which of his arguments are sound, and which are not.
And I'd also ask whether it's really relevant; we do have a starting point.
It may be more work to interpret scripture than to rediscover.
Also, it's far less adaptable and limited in scope.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 4:55:05 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings, Jahna.

IMO, you're getting ahead of yourself. In order to have a community of the sort that you mention, I think one will need to actually create a Gorean culture of Earth. The ones in the books could be adapted, of course, but that amounts to fandom at best, and embracing a corrupted version of an alien and artificial culture at worst. I don't think any introspective Gorean from the books would care to do so, were they sent back to Earth to live here.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: What is beyond the simple definition of "What ... - 12/10/2007 11:59:41 PM   
Totalmaster4you


Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Tal to the Free and property,
Tal Bull,
 
I address my post to you for several reasons. Firstly you initiated this thread. Secondly you were already here and well established when I first discovered this board and I therefor consider you a founding member. Lastly I find myself mostly in agreement with your posts and because Marvin does as well.
 
In the past I've written many welcoming posts to persons I believed were sincere in their desire to discover what living Goreans are really about. Also when I've met others on line that I thought would be a good fit as well as get something genuine about living honorably from being on this board I've suggested they check out this board. I have written that the vitality of a living Gorean community needs an influx new members or we will surely wither and the community will perish.
 
The best way to preserve the ideas and philosophies that resounded within us when we began our journeys is to teach and encourage those that have just recently discovered Living Gor and it's community. Will there be disagreements in interpretation and ideas, of course. That's the way it's been and as much as I'd like to see it change it probably wont due to the fact that the members are scattered around the world. Those cultural backgrounds affect how they relate to Gor. Those new to the community will be exposed to all the ideas and choose what resonates with them the most. That's why it is imperative to make sure that when we discuss the topics we do so with all the eloquence and logic at our command. That we don't leave it to the Bulls, Leonidas, Orions, and other founders to carry the burden. That's why I, like Trevelyan, see myself as conservative and consider things Gorean only as they have been adapted from the books to life here on Earth. There is something else that is congruent with this post that I want to say but I don't wish to hijack Bulls thread.
 
I wish you well,
TM4Y

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 20
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