RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for abusing woman he photographed for Web site

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RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/21/2007 8:04:19 PM

Posts: 2911
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From: Philadelphia, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I don't know...

There's something odd about admitting document, stating that the parties have signed it willingly, then throw out one party's accountability for it. When did we stop being responsible adults, able to make our own choices and accept consequences that follow from said choices? Not saying this guy was sensible, but 9 years seems harsh if she's actually agreed to it up front, even though she changed her mind later. Seems a bit arbitrary that you can agree to irreversible and unnecessary surgery, but can't agree to something like this.

Anyway, I dunno... if she didn't sign it willingly, that's a different matter.

(Before anyone comments on that, I wasn't talking about the legality, but the principle of it.)

Health,
al-Aswad.

Because you can WITHDRAW consent at any time, document or no document. Patients reconsider surgery all the time, even on the OR table. That the surgeon said, "Fuck it, I'm here, she's getting the _______" and had the gas passer knock the patient out and proceed would be wrong, yes? The same goes for any SM play when someone withdraws consent to what they'd previously agreed to. If it wasn't before this, it should be the number one reason for a stoppage of play and renegotiation. (In GMs case, there was no "negotiation." It was his way or the highway. It always was like that.)

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/21/2007 10:36:31 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I don't know...

There's something odd about admitting document, stating that the parties have signed it willingly, then throw out one party's accountability for it. When did we stop being responsible adults, able to make our own choices and accept consequences that follow from said choices? Not saying this guy was sensible, but 9 years seems harsh if she's actually agreed to it up front, even though she changed her mind later. Seems a bit arbitrary that you can agree to irreversible and unnecessary surgery, but can't agree to something like this.

Anyway, I dunno... if she didn't sign it willingly, that's a different matter.

(Before anyone comments on that, I wasn't talking about the legality, but the principle of it.)

Health,
al-Aswad.

What? It has nothing to do with changing her mind. You cannot consent to felony assault period. The fact she signed a document as some requirement for her to be held "accountable" is akin to saying women that wear short skirts deserve to be raped. We are not talking about consentual bdsm here, we are talking about brutal acts of violence and detention when she stated she was not consenting and wanted to leave.

< Message edited by laurell3 -- 12/21/2007 10:37:04 PM >

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When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

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RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/22/2007 12:49:04 AM

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It raises an intersting question regarding all social networking sites.

If the path of a members life for instance changed and BDSM was no longer part of it, would this site admin respect their wishes and return control of all intellectual property such as photographs to the said former member?

The legal jargon below is as you are all aware taken from Collarme.com's TOC , but it's a good bet that other sites have similiar.

9.4.2. You hereby irrevocably grant a non-exclusive right and license to the Website to:
9.4.2.1.Reproduce, Transmit, communicate, display, or distribute the photographs, on or as part of the Website, on other Internet sites, or elsewhere, for promotional or commercial purposes, by means of any technology, whether now known or hereafter to become known;
9.4.2.2.Reproduce Your pictures in digital form of display on the Internet (alone or in combination with other works, including, but not limited to, text, data, images, photographs, illustrations, animation, graphics, video, or audio segments, and hypertext links);
9.4.2.3.Adapt, modify, or alter Your photographs or otherwise create derivative works based upon Your photographs; and for all other reasonable promotional or commercial uses either as part of the operation of the Website, or as a promotion or operation of any derivative or related businesses

(in reply to laurell3)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/22/2007 4:50:16 AM

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This really isn't to the point, but, without real evidence, intuition tells me that instances like this actually occur less freqently in this community than in the vanilla one.

(in reply to ShibariJon)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/22/2007 7:37:29 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

Because you can WITHDRAW consent at any time, document or no document.

Legally, yes, of course. The document holds no water, legally. But my point was, if she is not incompetent, and says she's willing to give up that option, then it's rather like saying she's not able (or allowed to) make that decision for herself, isn't it? Saying she cannot be held accountable for her decisions, unless she reserves the right to change them if she doesn't like their consequences... it doesn't sit well with me, for some reason.

quote:

Patients reconsider surgery all the time, even on the OR table.

Okay. Crap example. Perhaps you have a better one.

quote:

The same goes for any SM play when someone withdraws consent to what they'd previously agreed to.

I know. It irks, for some reason. Not that it's been a problem for me. Just the principle of it irks. That one can back out of a deal with no consequences as long as it's related to BDSM, but not if it's a business contract, for instance. Something about not letting people take responsibility for their own actions, decisions and agreements. I dunno.

quote:

If it wasn't before this, it should be the number one reason for a stoppage of play and renegotiation.

As I said, it hasn't been a problem. It's the principle that irks me.

quote:

(In GMs case, there was no "negotiation." It was his way or the highway. It always was like that.)

I don't know GM. I only know what I've read on the net. Seems one of the girls, or someone pretending to be her, is rather pissed at it all, so from the details available to me (very little, and not very credible sources), this case could be about a monster, or some guy who was just a hard playing kinkster who got unlucky.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to MisPandora)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/22/2007 7:53:43 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: laurell3

What? It has nothing to do with changing her mind.

If she signed it willingly, regardless of its legal admissibility, then her mind was made up one way.
Subsequently making it up another way involves changing her mind, yes?

quote:

You cannot consent to felony assault period.

Depends on jurisdiction, but in any case, lots of people here do things that are technically illegal. It's something I've argued about in the past... the right to decide for yourself what to do with yourself, and to be accountable for your own actions. If I want to get in an MMA tournament, or drive a racing car, or go skydiving, or start boxing, or start smoking, or start drinking, or any number of things that will damage me, it will be allowed, because it is culturally accepted. If I want some hot chick to do something to me that will have a lasting impact, it will not be allowed, because it's "dirty" and "kinky." That's non-consensual slavery, if anything... Other people decide, without my consent, what I can and cannot do with my body. That doesn't really sit well with me.

quote:

The fact she signed a document as some requirement for her to be held "accountable" is akin to saying women that wear short skirts deserve to be raped.

Hold your horses for a moment. I didn't say that, nor do I agree with your inferrence. I have said that agreeing to something has consequences, and that if she willingly agreed to this with knowledge of what it entails, she should own up to those. Admitting that the document establishes his intention to do it to her, while it doesn't establish her intention to have it done to her, just seems odd to me. Around here, that'd be highly mitigating.

As for wearing short skirts, no, you wouldn't deserve to be raped, even if you were to run around naked in the streets of Teheran. But it would affect the likelyhood of that happening. Just as I'd like to be able to walk around dark alleyways with my wallet exposed without having some drugged-up mugger knock me down and take it. It's not that I deserve for it to happen to me. Just that, if I think it through, I have an option open to me that will reduce the chances of it happening. In a perfect world, that might not be something I would need to consider. But this is not a perfect world, so I have to have a fire alarm and extinguisher, wear my seatbelt, avoid dark alleyways, be aware of potential muggers, use condoms, pay my insurance, and so on and so forth.

quote:

We are not talking about consentual bdsm here, we are talking about brutal acts of violence and detention when she stated she was not consenting and wanted to leave.

The stories told by the different people involved seem to diverge on that point.

Long story short: if it transpired as the court thinks it did, then it was a just finding, but if it was merely a case of rough play and some fallout from that, then 9 years is way over the top. I don't know any of the parties involved, however, so I can't comment on the likelyhood of any of the stories told. I do know cases of both sorts, however, and they look surprisingly similar to an outside observer, such as the courts. Just saying.

Either way, that wasn't the point.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to laurell3)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/22/2007 7:55:49 AM

Aswad

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Very good point, ShibariJon. That is an example of a contract that states something as irrevocable, one anyone posting to this thread has agreed to. Legally, it might not actually be enforcable, but I'd certainly not look kindly on someone who decided to sue because they hadn't considered it before signing it. Which comes back to my point: accountability.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to ShibariJon)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/22/2007 2:19:17 PM

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From: Tidewater, VA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Looking at a lot of the time timeline involved, there are alot of things that shouldn't have been considered in the case. Many of the events that were protrayed as non consentual occured months and years before any complaint was made.

I have a bit of an issue with retro-rape claims in cases like this...

So, am I hearing you say that you also have problems with a woman who claims abuse after being tormented mentally and physically by her husband for ten years and only finally gets out of it when given an opportunity or has a moment of bravery and clarity? *shakes head*

M. Pandora,

Not the same case at all, sorry. I agree that someone can withdraw consent at any time- but not retroactively, which this case stinks of.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/23/2007 1:34:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

quote:

ORIGINAL: MisPandora

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Looking at a lot of the time timeline involved, there are alot of things that shouldn't have been considered in the case. Many of the events that were protrayed as non consentual occured months and years before any complaint was made.

I have a bit of an issue with retro-rape claims in cases like this...

So, am I hearing you say that you also have problems with a woman who claims abuse after being tormented mentally and physically by her husband for ten years and only finally gets out of it when given an opportunity or has a moment of bravery and clarity? *shakes head*

M. Pandora,

Not the same case at all, sorry. I agree that someone can withdraw consent at any time- but not retroactively, which this case stinks of.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

i'm with Topcat on this...

If she withdrew her consent then anything that happened AFTER that could/should be admissable (sp) as rape or assault or whatever....But when she gave her consent at the onset, willingly signing a contract...then anything that happened between then and the withdraw shouldn't be taken into consideration.

i mean if my Daddy decides to do some of the things he does to me (or any other M to s) and then i get pissy if we split and decide that i'm gonna cry rape and abuse (EDITED TO ADD: as a rape/abuse survivor it is a slap in the face to cry rape when there was none)...well that's some bullshit...plain and simple....If however i tell him i want to leave, ask for release or whatever (he says yes) and he throws me down and ties me up and brutalizes me on my way out the door...THEN i have something to say about it.

i'm not saying that anything he did after she tried to get away is right, i'm an abuse survivor and i feel for her, i honestly do. i also know that our contracts don't hold up in court and aren't legally binding....but you are giving your word to someone to accept certain things and telling them that you are okay with it when you do....itd be like the slave who cried wolf or something.

< Message edited by daddyncherry -- 12/23/2007 1:35:23 PM >

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Hugs,
cherry

Walking through life, and fear with a smile on my face.
Walking directly through the eye of the hurricane...and through to the other side..without fear....realizing everything will be okay. :)

being obedient 1day at a time

(in reply to topcat)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/23/2007 1:36:34 PM

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I understand what you are saying, however, legally wiitwd is not valid merely because it is consentual. The fact they may or may not have prosecuted him for what we believe to be consentual acts is not her choice. The law (with a few exceptions in rare jurisdictions) does not accept our distinction between consentual injury and nonconsentual injury when it comes to assault.

_____________________________

I cannot be defined by moments in my life, but must be considered for by the entirety of my existence.

When you fail to consider that I am the best judge for what is right for me, all of your opinions become suspect to me.

(in reply to daddyncherry)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/23/2007 2:48:59 PM

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I read the contents (back in the day) of two different website where he was the dom de jour. He struck me as anything but safe, probably lacking in basic knowledge of safety, and unconcerned about same.

Then there is the part where he called himself GM you're God. Nothing like prison to make sure one truly understands they are not god like and no one gives a poop what you think anyway. Those are probably lessons he needed to learn before he decided to become a dom.

When one has a firm grip on the reality that they are merely human and as such not all that terribly important you can begin to have enough humarity within your heart to form relationships with others.

(in reply to laurell3)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 12/23/2007 3:41:49 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

I am NOT condoning rape, or saying that what happened was in anyway SS&C

BUT

Looking at a lot of the time timeline involved, there are alot of things that shouldn't have been considered in the case. Many of the events that were protrayed as non consentual occured months and years before any complaint was made.

I have a bit of an issue with retro-rape claims in cases like this...

I agree with you BUT

"Heaven has no rage, like love to hatred turned, nor Hell a fury like a woman scorned" (The Mourning Bride, 1697).

(in reply to topcat)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 1/1/2008 6:33:26 PM

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Hello to all...
I know Glenn Marcus personally. I am his friend. I was in a BDSM relationship with him from 2003-2006, and I have known him since 1998. He NEVER did anyything to Jodi against her will or wish. She changed her mind after the fact and rewrote history to make it seem as though she was forced. Remember, after she claimed to "escape" she went camping with him and had fun times. Also, in MY conversations with Jodi, there was NEVER any sense that she was anything but thrilled and happy to be with Glenn. These chats occured in 1998, 1999, and 2003. It was only in 2004 (or late 2003) that she changed her mind in retrospect.

And, the vanilla jury saw "scary" pictures and felt an image showed coercion when all it did was show a picture. I was on his site as well; my avatar here is one of the pictures (albiet a tame one...Julia Gatto [one of his attorneys] felt some of my images rivaled anything Glenn had of Jodi.) IF I had wanted to lie, I to could have sobbed and said that he forced me to do what society feels is perverse and horrid. And, a vanilla jury would believe it...as they couldnt concieve of someone willingly doing any of it.

The prosecution ONLY had ONE witness...Jodi. There were NO others because NO other woman would collaborate her tale. NO other woman lied to the FBI as Jodi did. Yes, they interviewed me as well. Thats not something anyone of you should ever experience. The FBI interviewed many...and NONE would collaborate her tale. So, Glenn was jailed on the UNsubstantiated word of one woman. NO real proof existed...as, photographs arent proof.

There was a fully legal model release form...though the govt alleged it was forged.

Glenn Marcus is and always was about consent, and he abhored any non consensual act. MsPandora was right "his way or the highway" IF you did not want to be there, HE wanted NO part of you. He wanted WILLING women. And, Jodi never gave him any impression other than "willing". No matter what lies she created around consensual events...like the wiffle ball incident.

This verdict, aside from my friendly feelings to Glenn, is horrid for the BDSM community. Do you want the GOVT to say whats approved and not approved BDSM? They tried that with him...and nothing he did was unlike what occurs in many BDSM relations. His case also made legal history...now a domestic relationship can be prosecuted as slave labor/sex trafficking. NO, he was NOT convicted of rape, assault, kidnapping, or anything you all have written of. So, all a slave has to do is cry "he made me...wash dishes" and you to can be charged. Im not being trite, in arguments Pam Chen, the prosecuting attorney argued that if one was forced to play tiddlywinks that would constitute forced labor.

Sincerely,
meesekite

< Message edited by meesekite -- 1/1/2008 7:19:37 PM >

(in reply to unforegvn)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 1/1/2008 6:45:18 PM

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Sm contracts are meaningless. The guy was an idiot. Anyone who ignores the law in favor of a fantasy is screwed from the start.

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RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 1/1/2008 10:01:44 PM

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If the submissive wants to leave, the submissive should be allowed to leave.

Period.

< Message edited by TheScrivener -- 1/1/2008 10:02:17 PM >

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RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 1/2/2008 10:21:10 AM

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I aggree 100% with that statement, TheSrivener, and do did Glenn Marcus. Jodi was able to leave. He did not keep here there against her will, no matter what she claimed. There were times I would be at his apt, and she would call, and he had NO desire to speak with her. At times though he did have pleasant chats with her, as to his view they were still friends, and he was always kind to her. I remember especially when she called and was panicked about a medical problem she was having at the time, and he took alot of time discussing the issues. That was in 2003, I believe. Does that sound like a woman who was terrified of Glenn and could not escape Glenn Marcus? SHE rewrote history, and a jury believed her lies.
-meesekite

(in reply to TheScrivener)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 1/2/2008 11:30:55 AM

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Abused people often feel they deserve it, and perhaps Jodi felt she deserved whatever happened to her at the time. It sounds like Glenn had a lot of influence over her and it is possible for there to be abuse and periods without it. There is also the possibility of brainwashing and conditioned reactions, or possibly isolating her from other support systems so she didn't have any other people to depend on after the split.
The truth is, there are only 2 people who know what really happened. There are tons of possibilities. From an objective standpoint, and someone who believes in RACK, there is a line where consent cannot be given legally, and he, as a Dom, should have known that.

(in reply to meesekite)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 1/2/2008 4:30:43 PM

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I'm sorry but the b#####d got less than he deserved, he should have been strung up. I have been in this lifestyle 30 years, and I can not even call him a animal as even they have more rights than he has.

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 1/2/2008 5:11:02 PM

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Meesekite, thank you for coming forth and bringing your view. You opened up the line of thinking I was looking for.
First I read about this man being convicted of being a horrible dom, and breaking the law.
then everyone jumped on the bandwagon to berate this dom
then I herd a voice trying to vindicate this 'evil' dom, argued points against the subs arguments.
I saw and simpothyzed with the arguments, she could leave, she stayed on having a great time.
she was lying,
but some couldn't let go, and still saw the dom as evil, persecuting him.

Then I realized something. I don't know. I really don't know.
I was fed 'factoids' to rile me up and give responses.
I don't know the facts! Do I believe you, sub, liberal papers,news
closed minded vanilla jury? WHO THE F)CK KNOWS????
SHE COULD EASILY BE LYING, HE COULD EASILY BE LYING, YOU COULD BE LYING (EASILY)
So, why weren't you in his defense if you knew the 2 of them at that time? Never mind the fbi interrogation,
you still could and should have been in the court if you have knowledge. Why weren't you there fighting for him?

oh the love.

sorry I got carried away..

< Message edited by BlackKnight -- 1/2/2008 5:15:09 PM >

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Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner's, 1905, page 284"
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(in reply to MasterDoug48)

RE: 'S&M Svengali' sentenced to 9 years in prison for a... - 1/2/2008 5:51:15 PM

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Hello Blackknight,
You should not assume I was not there for Glenn without first knowing the facts. Though in your defense, it does seem odd I was not a witness, knowing what I know and experiencing what I experienced with Glenn. I SHOULD have testified, and Glenns lawyer knew I was VERY willing to testify on his behalf. For reasons that I feel are lousy, Maurice (his lawyer) thought Id make a poor witness for the defense. And no, I dont care to elaborate. Just know I resent it, deeply, that the jury never heard the many positive things I had to say. I deeply resent the prosecution using me as an example of a woman Glenn manipulated....and I was never called to deny their lies (I read parts of the trial transcript).

There were a few women who were willing to testify for Glenn, and Maurice found some reason to exclude all of us.

-meesekite

(in reply to BlackKnight)

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