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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 11:09:48 AM   
junecleaver


Posts: 1145
Joined: 4/6/2005
Status: offline 		It doesn't seem like the people who actually structure their lives around Gorean philosophy act like that. I'm not even sure what Gorean philosophy is and I'm not reading the threads that are 12 pages long. Because honestly, I don't care. As long as they're happy and they aren't annoying me, I don't see a problem.

quote:

Because a very high percentage of men will do whatever it takes to get a trophy girl ... plain and simple. I'm not saying ALL men, so lets get that clear ... but it's such a high percentage, that hot girls will always get what they want, because they will always be able to find some guy willing to give it to them.


Sometimes hot girls want all the wrong things. I don't think there are a high enough percentage of men to PAY for a trophy wife to make it such a raging epidemic or whatever. You seem to be using way too many stereotypes far too seriously. Just because a person is good looking does NOT make relationships easier. It just brings a different set of problems.

_____________________________


"No one will ever win the battle of the sexes; there's too much fraternizing with the enemy. "
--Henry A. Kissinger

(in reply to Kinkypupper)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 11:19:33 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
Kinky - its always obvious you have no like for Gor and dont think of it as 'real' - but there are Goreans out there that you have probably never met, simply because they wouldnt want to meet you (no offense).

quote:

PLEASE find me a 24/7 REAL relationship that exists in reality with all the tenants of "GOR". That has lasted ohh say longer then 2 years.


To me, your 'plea' doesnt sound sincere. There are Gorean Housholds with longterm Master and slaves.

Your statement could be any vanilla persons response to the mention of a poly union.
Or your statement could be any divorced persons response to the mention of marriage.

Being unhappy with that which doesn't revolve around your belief is fine in your world - thankfully not everyone is as closed and cynical. It's healthy to question things you don't understand, but its not healthy to pull down the blinds.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Kinkypupper)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 12:39:24 PM   
KittenWithaTwist


Posts: 490
Joined: 8/3/2005
Status: offline 		Human beings are human beings. What makes you human are your quirks and mistakes, your loves and your passions, your brain and your genitals, your skin and your body hair, the way you take in oxygen, the ability to decipher between your moral right and your moral wrong.

These things make you human. Whether you consider yourself a good human or a bad human, a good man or a bad man, you'll still always be a human being. And I would think that you'd still have emotions and past stimuli that have affected your outlook on life.

Do you allow yourself to be manipulated? Maybe you don't think so. But I don't think any man is an island. Something always gets to someone...we are affected by many many things.


(in reply to RavenofPK)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 12:43:01 PM   
RavenofPK


Posts: 320
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

Human beings are human beings. What makes you human are your quirks and mistakes, your loves and your passions, your brain and your genitals, your skin and your body hair, the way you take in oxygen, the ability to decipher between your moral right and your moral wrong.

These things make you human. Whether you consider yourself a good human or a bad human, a good man or a bad man, you'll still always be a human being. And I would think that you'd still have emotions and past stimuli that have affected your outlook on life.

Do you allow yourself to be manipulated? Maybe you don't think so. But I don't think any man is an island. Something always gets to someone...we are affected by many many things.




Apparantly.......your definition of manipulation and my definition are not the same.

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 1:00:28 PM   
stef


Posts: 5275
Joined: 1/26/2004
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

Apparantly.......your definition of manipulation and my definition are not the same.

With that in mind, and with the hope of clearing up any possible misunderstanding, perhaps you would be willing to share with us what your definition of 'manipulation' is?

~stef

_____________________________

Some people are like Slinkies. They have no practical use whatsoever, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.

(in reply to RavenofPK)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 1:13:24 PM   
MstrHellsFury


Posts: 388
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline 		not even talking gor here...just interjecting ...you're wrong...I am an island...one unto myself...and on me I have thousands of beautiful..10+ in looks...mowing my grass...pruning my trees...weeding my gardens...and in general...just plain making sure I don't get tired of them and just like ..sink and drown them all...



Fury

(in reply to KittenWithaTwist)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 1:14:14 PM   
kisshou


Posts: 2425
Joined: 2/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
Last Christmas, I was visiting this chat server

I think you see where this is going.



The problem with Gor is people who do not have enough intelligence to differentiate between role playing in a chat room and people incorporating a set of principles into a lifestyle that is lived offline on earth.


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 1:44:11 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

To me, the whole idea of Gor has a big problem ... there is just no way the hottest girls would end up slaves, or even semi-submissive free women. There is no way the hottest girls would end up being these helpless little sex objects ...


You might have an arguement there if the "whole idea" of Gor was somehow dependant on the presence of "hot girls". It's not. You may have gotten the idea somehow that the whole of how I live revolves around slave girls, but that's not the case. It just happens to be what I have in common with others here on Collarme, and so what I, and folks like me, tend to talk about here.

I hate to break the news to you, but "helpless little sex objects" are over-rated, hot or no. I've owned women for a long time. One dimentional women (even if that dimention has to do with beauty or sex) don't remain interesting for very long.

quote:

Because a very high percentage of men will do whatever it takes to get a trophy girl ... plain and simple. I'm not saying ALL men, so lets get that clear ... but it's such a high percentage, that hot girls will always get what they want, because they will always be able to find some guy willing to give it to them.


Hell, I'll go you one better. The vast majority of men will do what it takes to get any girl. I think that the hole in your reasoning here is that all "hot girls" want the same thing. What if a "hot girl" wants a master? The sad truth is that she'll have a problem. Why? Because of what you just pointed out. Those willing to master her will be rare, while those willing to kiss her ass in Macy's window will be abundant.

quote:

mean get real ... imagine the little "barely legal" coin girl with the 40 year old warrior ... sure all the slaves are hot and willing ... but this one is hot beyond hot, and knows how to use it. In a world where they keep you in silks and make you sex objects, imagine how long it would take to learn how to use your weapons.


It sounds to me like you have a low opinion of attractive women. To your way of thinking, any women who is attractive is out to use her attractivness as a weapon. I'm afraid I don't share your point of view there. My long experience is that very attractive women can be just as devoted, and loving, and loyal as their less attractive sisters. Most (as you pointed out above) rarely get the chance, though.

quote:

slave: "Master, I want to be yours forever, but being a slave crushes my spirit and makes me hold back."

Master: "You are a slave ... you will always be my slave."

slave: "yes Master" ~mentally moves on to the next guy down the line.


Your premise here is that an attractive girl can't be (or want to be) a slave girl. It's not true. A girl like the one in your scenario here isn't enslaved to that particular man to be sure.

I own what many would consider to be a "hot girl", and have for a while now. On her way into my collar, she went through many of the scenarios that you're describing here a number of times. Each time, what she felt was disappointment and a kind of pity for the weakness of the man she was with. My experience over some years is that that is typical of attractive women who seek a master.

Your observations about our society at large are fairly accurate, caitlyn, but that has little to do with how Goreans live. An "hot girl" who finds herself in a Gorean collar would be there because she chose a life of love, service, and devotion over a life of self-serving. I agree with you, there are plenty of outlets for self-serving "hot girls" in society at large. They hardly need to come seeking a Gorean collar to, as you say "use it".




_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 1:44:13 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		Well ... I'm not sure what the flaming is about ... nobody was cracking on the Goreann lifestyle ... but, the point made is simple math.

What percentage of girls are really, really hot? I'm not talking about cute, or pretty, or sexy ... I'm talking about supermodel "stop traffic" hot? Maybe one in ten thousand ... maybe! (but probably far less in reality)

Are you saying that there isn't even one in ten thousand Gorean guys that wouldn't give a girl like that what she wanted, just to have her? Taken to the next logical step ... if guys that "give a little", get all the hottest girls, what do you think the next guys in the food chain will do?

Now ... for all the folks that responded about the offline Gorean communities, or saying that the example doesn't apply to them ... that's totally cool. This post doesn't apply to them, and they shouldn't feel threatened, or feel the need to flame. They obviously are already sleeping with girls that are on the cover of Vogue, and have the Sports Illustrated swimsuit girls as part of their Gorean community ... more power to them.

On the manipulation topic ... I'm not sure how two people getting what they want, is considered manipulation ... after all, isn't the guy giving, to get what he wants ... meaning the hot girl in question?

Anyway ... don't flame, and have fun ... and next time I will do a better job with the subject line.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 1:56:35 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What percentage of girls are really, really hot? I'm not talking about cute, or pretty, or sexy ... I'm talking about supermodel "stop traffic" hot? Maybe one in ten thousand ... maybe! (but probably far less in reality)


Well, six-sigma women are six-sigma women. No news there. I'm not sure why my entire way of life is dependant on them. Maybe you can enlighten me.

quote:

Are you saying that there isn't even one in ten thousand Gorean guys that wouldn't give a girl like that what she wanted, just to have her?


Sure, there are. And he'd probably regret it.

quote:

Taken to the next logical step ... if guys that "give a little", get all the hottest girls, what do you think the next guys in the food chain will do?


Laugh at him? I know I would, and have. Gorean men aren't much like the men that you seem to know. We tend to see the kind of woman that you are talking about as property, and judge her accordingly. The "pretty but manipulative" type, as you might guess, isn't considered to be of much value. Kind of like a Ferrari with no engine.

quote:

On the manipulation topic ... I'm not sure how two people getting what they want, is considered manipulation ... after all, isn't the guy giving, to get what he wants ... meaning the hot girl in question?


You're equating slave with whore. We don't tend to see our slaves as whores. Yes, in female slavery as we define it, both master and slave get what they desire, but it has to do with the natural expression of masculinity and femininity. I'm not sure you'd get it even if I explained it to you. You're obviously the product of a very materialistic culture, even to the extent that you view human relations as a kind of business transaction. Lets just say we disagree about that, and leave it there.


_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 2:00:56 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't exactly understand why this matters. I used to prefer gorgeous women and learned (the hard way) that gorgeous women are not necessarily more desirable as partners. What matters is what is in the heart. I don't comprehend a thing about Gor, but I assume that a mature Gorean master understands the value of a devoted but plain slave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

What percentage of girls are really, really hot? I'm not talking about cute, or pretty, or sexy ... I'm talking about supermodel "stop traffic" hot? Maybe one in ten thousand ... maybe! (but probably far less in reality)


(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 2:17:21 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

You're equating slave with whore. We don't tend to see our slaves as whores. Yes, in female slavery as we define it, both master and slave get what they desire, but it has to do with the natural expression of masculinity and femininity. I'm not sure you'd get it even if I explained it to you. You're obviously the product of a very materialistic culture, even to the extent that you view human relations as a kind of business transaction. Lets just say we disagree about that, and leave it there.



Not at all ... I just don't have a problem with people getting what they want, and don't see that as manipulation. If someone wants to be a slave, then they are getting what they want, and more power to them.

Everyone tries to get what they want ... that's just human nature. I like to get what I want ... and what I want doesn't include manipulating guys ... I like guys that are forceful and don't put up with my bullshit ... but, I'm still getting what I want when I find one ... and nobody is manipulating anyone.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 2:17:53 PM   
kry


Posts: 19
Joined: 7/24/2005
Status: offline 		The books themselves are written like bad wanking material for 15 year old boys, where all the women were beautiful. So if "hot" is a dime a dozen, then no, she would not get whatever she wanted, because there are dozens lined up on the auction block right behind her. Additionally, in a fictional society where men can simply seize what women they want, the ones with the choicest pieces of slave flesh are not likely to end up being pussy whipped. They got to the top of the food chain somehow, it is unlikely they would do so following some chick and carrying her purse at the market. Even if one in ten thousand were to give her what she wanted, she would likely be taken away by another stronger and further up the chain. This issue was actually addressed in one of the earlier books, when Tarl was in the mountain of the Priest Kings and there was a slave girl there that tried to manipulate him into serving her using her beauty, because it had been a sucessful tactic before.

Of course, this only begins to scratch the surface on what is wrong with the Gor novels. I may be a kajira, but they are hands down some of the worst books I have ever waded through. Then again, trying to explain to people that I believe an ancient Greek philosopher was correct in his ponderings on the natural order involves WAY too much explanation.

_____________________________

kry{Rk}

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 2:23:44 PM   
cellogrrlMK


Posts: 672
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I don't exactly understand why this matters. I used to prefer gorgeous women and learned (the hard way) that gorgeous women are not necessarily more desirable as partners. What matters is what is in the heart. I don't comprehend a thing about Gor, but I assume that a mature Gorean master understands the value of a devoted but plain slave.



I don't know why, but that song just came to me when I read your post:

If you want to be happy for the rest of your life
Never make a PRET-ty woman your wife
So from my personal point of view
Get an ugly girl to marry you!

LOL... no offense meant to anybody! That song cracks me up...

cello

Edited to add... gee and with this post I became perverted! Wooo hoooooo!

< Message edited by cellogrrlMK -- 8/20/2005 2:24:31 PM >

_____________________________

There's too much Blood in my Caffeine system!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 2:26:03 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35843
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I used to go with a girl that was ugly once, kinda looked like the dogs had her under the porch and played with her; but she was mean so I left her.


Ron

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to cellogrrlMK)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 2:50:12 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
caitlyn

As far as I can see, no one flamed you in particular - if anything, your whole OP was a flame on what you percieve to be Gor. A few days or even months in a 'Gor online chat room' can hardly constitute to knowing what Gor is about and even allow someone to make a fair and reasoned jugement on a particular fetish or lifestyle or whatever you want to call it.

People made a suggestion that what you experienced isnt necessarily what Gorean Households are about. Your statement was like a person coming in and judging BDSM purely on a couple of months chatting with a HNG, or the righteous making judgements on someone involved in a marriage triangle or a strictly monogamous person dismissing poly relationships.
If people don't agree with you, thats less of a flame than making the claims on a subject you know nothing much about. Fear instills hatred and loathing and leads to sarcasm and hate campaigns of minorities one just doesn't comprehend. But learning first hand or discussing in an open and mature manner leads to a loss of fear - or at least and understanding of it.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 2:55:27 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
On the points of manipulation - I would say that people - be they man, woman, dominant, sub, slave, gorean, vanilla, or whatever your race, creed, colour or denomination - everyone has the ability to be manipulated. It's just that some people do not allow themselves to be manipulated in any way. But thats not to say that all manipulation is bad - some is quite positive. But I am neither Gorean, nor dominant - and manipulation isnt something I particularly like and therefore - I don't get involved in it. If someone wants to try and manipulate me, they have the freedom to try. But they will not get anywhere...

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 3:04:38 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think I was flamed, and didn't really say I was ... but obviously the mods think at least someone got flamed.

Flames don't bother me ... I flame myself better than anyone could ever flame me.

We can just agree not to agree on the other point ... I honestly think everyone has their price.

< Message edited by caitlyn -- 8/20/2005 3:06:34 PM >

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 3:11:34 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

We can just agree not to agree on the other point ... I honestly think everyone has their price.


Not, if they are pricless...


Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/20/2005 5:02:49 PM   
SupahBoy


Posts: 5
Joined: 7/28/2004
Status: offline 		Gor is byzantine... And im sure for making that statement the forces of the counter earth are plotting on my demise.

(in reply to Kinkypupper)
Profile   Post #: 40
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