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RE: The Problem With Gor


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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 6:14:30 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
After I had posted my last post, I had hopped into the shower and was thinking these very same thoughts. How BDSM and any protocols within a BDSM relationship are based soley upon the desires of the individuals within that relationship, while Goreans have a rulebook of sorts which describes certain protocols and norms for behavior.

I thought of it first dammit....

~Thorns


I give a lot of credit to the Goreans who have posted here. They seem to have managed to extract what seems to be viable from a veritable morass. AND I, except for one poster who seemed to feel Gorean slaves were somehow superior to all others, most have been cleaving to YKIOK, which, for me is a kind of bottom line.

On the other hand, I ran into a pair of Goreans at the Boston Flea a few years back who regaled me that Gor was the only real scene and all the others were players and poseurs. [while taking up much of my vending space] Finally, I just put him on the ground and held a knife to his throat, proclaiming "Do I have to kill you to get your slave or will you just surrender her to me." After a bit of hysterics on the part of the slave and babbling on his part, I think the point that one cannot do ALL of Gor on Earth sunk in.

[Many thanks to the understanding officer who stood to one side laughing to herself] [Note to self: Doing lectures on BDSM to police departments has side benefits that aren't immediately obvious.]


_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 6:29:59 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35843
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[startHijack]
Quick Hijack.......I used to be involved with the BAC in Boston.......sat out watching the Pats and getting drunk and stoned with a gaggle of Bostons Finest and a Lieutenant Governor of MASS. The police are by and large not only hoodlums but some very kinky humans.

Just cuz.

Ron
[/endHijack]

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 6:40:33 PM   
krys


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/24/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrThorns
Personally, I think that the view that many people have regarding goreans has been assisted, in part, by many people that claim that they live the gorean life.

So, maybe the answer to your question regarding why it is so difficult for some BDSM-folk to accept Gor-folk comes from these online behaviors.

~Thorns



Ahh the bad apples spoiling the whole bunch thing. Well, I will just hope that some of the good apples can help with that whole PR problem.

quote:

Now, please correct me if I am wrong in this as I am not all that familiar with goreans, but is it not a widely held belief that gorean masters and slaves are a product of natural selection or evolution? That men are somehow genetically better leaders than women?


Well, kinda. One way to explain it is that the men that were more dominant got the better breeding partners, the women they found most pleasing tending to be more submissive. Over time, this leads to the men being the more dominant and the women being the more submissive of the species as matter of selective breeding. Some take the rather fanatical view that this is the way of all men and women in the world. But not all believers are fanatics. I, personally, believe that this is predominant, but not exclusive. I believe men are genetically better men, and women are genetically better women. Men and women are different, with different strengths. Then again, I also think I am a bit odd as kajira go, so I may be the wrong person to ask.

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Krys

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 6:50:38 PM   
krys


Posts: 611
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Finally, I just put him on the ground and held a knife to his throat, proclaiming "Do I have to kill you to get your slave or will you just surrender her to me." After a bit of hysterics on the part of the slave and babbling on his part, I think the point that one cannot do ALL of Gor on Earth sunk in.


I notice you are now located in Florida. A small tip - don't try that here. Unless you want the judicial system to help the point that assault and battery with a deadly weapon is a VERY serious offense.

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Krys

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 7:00:39 PM   
JohnWarren


Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Finally, I just put him on the ground and held a knife to his throat, proclaiming "Do I have to kill you to get your slave or will you just surrender her to me." After a bit of hysterics on the part of the slave and babbling on his part, I think the point that one cannot do ALL of Gor on Earth sunk in.


I notice you are now located in Florida. A small tip - don't try that here. Unless you want the judicial system to help the point that assault and battery with a deadly weapon is a VERY serious offense.


Oh, but now in Florida I can say I was in deadly fear for my life. After all he was the one shouting and he was wearing a sword.



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Profile   Post #: 165
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/26/2005 8:05:10 PM   
MasterAdain


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Finds krys's reffrence to pandora the most amusing remark I have heard in a few days.

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RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/27/2005 8:51:23 AM   
MrThorns


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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

Ahh the bad apples spoiling the whole bunch thing. Well, I will just hope that some of the good apples can help with that whole PR problem.


Exactly. Now, hopefully the Gorean forums will have a positive impact on repairing some of the bad apple damage. Many of the goreans I have met via these forums seem to be very intelligent and pleasant people.

quote:


Well, kinda. One way to explain it is that the men that were more dominant got the better breeding partners, the women they found most pleasing tending to be more submissive. Over time, this leads to the men being the more dominant and the women being the more submissive of the species as matter of selective breeding. Some take the rather fanatical view that this is the way of all men and women in the world. But not all believers are fanatics. I, personally, believe that this is predominant, but not exclusive. I believe men are genetically better men, and women are genetically better women. Men and women are different, with different strengths. Then again, I also think I am a bit odd as kajira go, so I may be the wrong person to ask.


I appreciate the insight. Thank you.

~Thorns

_____________________________

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"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/27/2005 8:53:20 AM   
MrThorns


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Joined: 6/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luvdragonx

quote:


After I had posted my last post, I had hopped into the shower and was thinking these very same thoughts. How BDSM and any protocols within a BDSM relationship are based soley upon the desires of the individuals within that relationship, while Goreans have a rulebook of sorts which describes certain protocols and norms for behavior.

I thought of it first dammit....

~Thorns



Ok, I will go so far as to allow that you and I shared a wavelength for a minute. Then again, how do you know it wasn't my thoughts you were picking up on?????

By all means, elaborate on that point the way only you can, as I'm off to do good deeds........


Because I was wearing my aluminum foil hat...erm...in the shower.

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/27/2005 10:31:56 AM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Oh, but now in Florida I can say I was in deadly fear for my life. After all he was the one shouting and he was wearing a sword.


LMAO. Oh good - something on the news other than hurricane coverage.

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Krys

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/27/2005 5:13:45 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren
Oh, but now in Florida I can say I was in deadly fear for my life. After all he was the one shouting and he was wearing a sword.


LMAO. Oh good - something on the news other than hurricane coverage.


Any man that moves to where the hurricanes are; is probably not intimidated by a sword (having worn one somewhere in his time in the corps) I woulda called it the suck, after your ditty about the army, but it's gonna be a pass.


Hee Hee Hee,
Ron

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/27/2005 5:33:51 PM   
JohnWarren


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Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
Any man that moves to where the hurricanes are; is probably not intimidated by a sword (having worn one somewhere in his time in the corps) I woulda called it the suck, after your ditty about the army, but it's gonna be a pass.


Heck, those are the official lyrics.

Now when we sang it, we took some liberties.

If the Army or the Navy ever look on heaven's scenes
They will find their wives are sleeping with the United States Marines

For some reason the Commandant hasn't approved the changes.

I really can't knock the Army. There have been a few times when those big old recovery choppers were more beautiful than anything Hefner ever dated and there isn't anything nicer to have around than a few batteries of 155s when noisy neighbors with AKs are banging on the door.

I lost my Mamaluke sword in a house fire about 15 years ago. I didn't get a chance to wear it much since 0321s don't go formal any too often but it was nice to hold it and remember the long line of Marines who stood behind me all the way back to 1775.


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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/27/2005 5:50:06 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 35843
Joined: 11/3/2004
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Dayum! Losing that must have been a poignant moment....and/or lifetime.

Ron

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/29/2005 1:36:41 AM   
kezzo


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to Sabrina King
Your photo is delightfull
an exceptionally beautiful woman ....thanks for sharing it smile
Kezz

_____________________________

I am a well educated Gentleman living in Australia, Divorced looking for a submissive Lady to spend the frest of his days with... Yes seeking 24/7... willing to relocate for right Lady.

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Profile   Post #: 173
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/29/2005 6:09:42 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren


I give a lot of credit to the Goreans who have posted here. They seem to have managed to extract what seems to be viable from a veritable morass.


See, I was a lot less impressed, ha-ha ... but then again, when you get called a gold digging b#$%& by a complete stranger on a message board, that does sort of sour things a bit ... and that was almost kind compared to some of the email I got. One person insisted that I was the sort of person that needed to be decapitated to keep me from speaking, and another insisted that I was exactly the sort of feminazi cunt that castrated men here on Earth.

I feel that many people completely overreacted to the original post, especially the title ... and saw it as a threat to their lifestyle. That was clearly not the intent, as anyone with a bit of objectivity would easily grasp. The topic was so specific, how could it possibly threaten the lifestyle as a whole?

You know, just the other day I was heard to say, "You know, the problem with my new convertable, is that it's so damn hot out, you can't put the top down." That doesn't mean I left it on the side of the road, or traded it for a pack of chewing gum. I would make the comparison between that "problem" and one like, "The problem with my car, is that it keeps leaving me stranded on the road at three in the morning." Obviously the second problem is a bit more serious than the first.

So ... while I do apologize for all the Goreans that I upset with this thread and wish I had never made it ... I hardly feel the response was proper, or warrented, or even on point for that matter. The one exception was edana, who actually managed to address the topic without resorting to childish comments, or attacks on the poster, or pedantic language.

Much respect to her.

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: The Problem With Gor - 8/30/2005 2:54:06 AM   
buffiyum


Posts: 119
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hmmm..... well, i would like to address two issues if that is ok please.
the first is this: opinions are like bums, Eeveryone has one and Wwe all need to be able to express those opinions without 'farting' on Aanyone else's opinion.... that is called 'common courtesy' (which is not all that common, this girl has found)....
It is very importent to be able to continue to express how Wwe feel or else this venue of 'expression' of the Lifestyle becomes only another 'dating service' (ewww), instead of a place to grow within the Lifestyle. If one may say so, part of 'growth' is listening to Oothers with courtesy, not distain. Wwe may just learn something.

The second is this: buffy is a 'gorean' in r/l. i began formally online and moved to r/l with how i feel inside, like Mmany have done whether as Tops/bottoms, D/s or M/s or Oother Ggoreans. But what i am, i have been all my life and all of this that Ffolks see today, is just what is 'inside' coming more out than before, and more each passing day.
i am not young although i am called 'girl' (such a nice word to me), and i donot feel that i am a 'hottie' although how the girl looks is not bad at all, so what does being gorean mean exactly for buffy as a 'slave' eh? well for me it means that i am slave-at-heart and believe in many of the principles which are found in the fictional works of John Norman.
i believe that Men rule more naturally per se than women (and that is only what i am saying buffy believe k), that women are more beautiful and content at the feet of a Man, that women are sexual beings and that this is not a thing which she should hide in shame but accept with joy because that is her very nature and she 'submit' (no pun intended) to that nature because she cannot do otherwise. To do otherwise would be to lie to herself about what she is and that she cannot and should not and will not do. It means that there is great joy in pleasing and serving and in obedience also. It means that she does this as readily as breathing because to do any less would be to deny what she is and like one who dies if they cannot breath, she would die inside if she could not any longer do those things.
This is how i live. Now then.... is it feasible in r/l? Yes. However, unless one is owned, it may be feasible but it is also highly dangerous. i found that out over the course of a year while buffy try to determine how to bring together in safety what i am, with the dangers inherent in being what i am. Its a scary world out there Ffolks.
The only way to do so for buffy, is to keep in my mind always this: i keep safe all that i am because i guard for the One Who will eventually own this girl, all that i am and have. Although Some Men Who also have read the books have said, 'girl you must submit to Me, if you are what you say you are'.... i can now say 'Sir, with respecte, what You see is not mine to offer. i keep it safe for the One to come' .
In this way can i bring together what i have read with reality and keep me safe for the One Who will own this one.
i still 'offer serve' with drinks and such and dances, as any gorean-trained girl should and is glad to do, but there are limits due to the Prime Directive to keep safe the girl (holy shades of Captain Kirk batman)!
Now, as to Gorean Men....
i been lucky i guess.... those Gorean Masters that i have met in r/l have impressed me in several ways:
They are Honourable and Honour is first and foremost with Them. They are true to the books in how They live, how They view Themselves and in how They view slaves. They can be quite emotional and have not a fear to show that, including tears. They are somewhat arrogant and do not care what Oothers think of those tears. These things i like (although that is not a biggie as They would not care that i do or donot like this). However, how Some of Them sometimes appear to view slaves is a worry to me in a way. Their very 'aloofness' with Their slaves is the crux of this. At times that 'distancing' has come across to me as being very close to 'uncaring'.... a kind of 'use, abuse and throw away' attitude on the part of Some and even for todays 'disposable society' that is a bit much for my emotional health to accept. In all honesty, i have found that i need and crave to feel loved as a One's 'valued property'. Yet as a gorean i would also possibly not respect a Man who 'fell in love' with me romantically. i would find Him weak for doing that very thing. i do not seek flowers and kindness but the leash and strictness which this girl is the first to admitte that she needs. Perhaps it all comes down to balance in the sense that 'extremes' can be dangerous, very dangerous indeed. Or maybe it is that buffy want to have cake and eat it too (eek).
Well....
When all is said and done.... when Wwe each of Uus seek a Oone ( or two or three), it is about 'shared perspectives', 'shared limits' and 'shared beliefs'. Like Eeveryone else, buffy also seek 'compatibility' within the Lifestyle in this search for Master.
One thing i do believe about Tthose living this BDSM Lifestyle, regardless where on that spectrum Wwe are..... Wwe need to be more 'accepting' of Oother's 'take' on the Life, or else Wwe are no differente than the 'vanillas' who tend to judge Uus all so very negatively.
respectfully
buffy

< Message edited by buffiyum -- 8/30/2005 4:03:54 AM >

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RE: The Problem With Gor - 9/24/2005 5:04:57 PM   
pp1948


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I agree with you Caitlyn! Most men think they can boss around women and the younger the better! I say that they can go f*** themselves![:****]

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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: The Problem With Gor - 9/24/2005 7:19:40 PM   
buffiyum


Posts: 119
Status: offline
Masters, Mistresses and sissas,
It seems that i need to apologise for using abbreviations which are non gorean in a gorean forum. So this buffy will do. i apologise for that and will endeavour to never to do that again.
i know that many do not consider 'Gor' to be within the 'BDSM' Lifestyle, but rather to be on its own. That said, any BDSM abbreviations would not therefore have a 'place' within a 'Gor' forum.
i do not feel the 'Gor' and 'BDSM' Lifestyles to be so dis associated. i believe both have a place, at least in this girls life and heart.
However, never would i wish to show a dis respectful action, which i now see using bdsm abbreviations here could be seen as.
the girl so very apologise for that.
respectfully,
buffy

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: The Problem With Gor - 9/25/2005 12:33:24 AM   
SirKnottynNice


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From: My mind to Y/yours
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quote:

ORIGINAL: greenie

i'm confused by this. i'm not into Gor but let me see if i can get this straight because i think that i must be misreading what you wrote...
Are you saying that if a girl is hot there is no way she could actually be completely submissive to her owner? Or are you saying that for those of us that truly desire a submissive life must not be attractive? i'm sure i'm misreading you. Maybe it's just too early in the morning and my brain isn't functioning yet.


What she said. It's strange how you wrote so well what I was thinking greenie.
*smiles*



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your ass would look cute red


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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: The Problem With Gor - 9/25/2005 12:39:44 AM   
SirKnottynNice


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From: My mind to Y/yours
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pp1948

I agree with you Caitlyn! Most men think they can boss around women and the younger the better! I say that they can go f*** themselves![:****]


Just because a Dom or a man claiming to be a "Dom/Top" can "boss around a woman", doesn't make him a Master/Dom, It's makes him an asshole.

The difference is a true Dom is aware he is not perfect, knows he is human , and very well capable of being an asshole, but strives not to be, and admits when he fucks up.

_____________________________

your ass would look cute red


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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: The Problem With Gor - 9/25/2005 2:43:29 PM   
miikaawaadizi


Posts: 134
Joined: 11/19/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: krys
I believe men are genetically better men, and women are genetically better women. Men and women are different, with different strengths. Then again, I also think I am a bit odd as kajira go, so I may be the wrong person to ask.


heretic!!! burn the heret ... oh, wait ... sorry - knee jerk reaction :p

any time someone brings up "equality" as an absolute, I just ask "if both genders are equal in everything, why can men sign their name in the snow better?"

that or the ancient joke:

God was finishing up making Adam and Eve, and sat them down to ask "OK, I've got two things left to assign, you get one each. Which of you would like to be able to pee standing up?" to which Adam jumps up and down excitedly going "Me! Me!". "OK, Adam", said God before turning to Eve. "That leaves you with multiple orgasms".

let's see ... I haven't seen women provide a Y chromosome for their offspring yet. I haven't seen men complaining about their periods once a month (not, I said -their- periods, not their SO's :P)

equality is a social construct that has nothing to do with nature. biologically, genetically, conceptually, intellectually, physiologically, neurologically, both genders are different. "superiority" or "inferiority" is a case-by-case contextual issue. societal pressures are the "equalizer", not nature. if nature intended everything to be "equal" there wouldn't be two genders, we'd all be worms. nature created the system to work in balance, two genders, mutually complimentary, with strengths and weaknesses on both sides.

equality is a red herring, and serves only to perpetuate the culture of mediocrity and culture of entitlement. you want to be "equal"? you can be - by your own efforts. if you need some societal diktat to do it for you, then you're not "equal" - you're just playing one on TV. lazy.

~miika
proud collared and marked property
who's just odd.

Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to the garage makes you a car.
Laurence J. Peter

(in reply to krys)
Profile   Post #: 180
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