The Problem With Gor (Full Version)

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caitlyn -> The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 6:56:32 AM)

Last Christmas, I was visiting this chat server I used to visit and saw all these Gor rooms. I had no idea what Gor was at the time ... but I figured that if that many people were into it, it must be fun ... so, I checked it out.

At first it just seemed like a fantasy roleplay thing with kinky slave girls ... and being generally open minded, I sort of hung out and had fun. It took some time, but I even developed a character and all that. I never really got into the slave thing, either being one or owning one, as a matter of fact all I really did was hang out and crack jokes (I bet you find that hard to believe, ha-hha). It was a fun and harmless place to hang out for a few months ... but I guess I burned it out.

Only after coming here did I realize that it was a "lifestyle" and like any overly-curious person, I did some google seaches and checked it out.

To me, the whole idea of Gor has a big problem ... there is just no way the hottest girls would end up slaves, or even semi-submissive free women. There is no way the hottest girls would end up being these helpless little sex objects ... and even less of a way that men would look at them with aloof detatchement, until it's time for sex.

Why?

Because a very high percentage of men will do whatever it takes to get a trophy girl ... plain and simple. I'm not saying ALL men, so lets get that clear ... but it's such a high percentage, that hot girls will always get what they want, because they will always be able to find some guy willing to give it to them.

I mean get real ... imagine the little "barely legal" coin girl with the 40 year old warrior ... sure all the slaves are hot and willing ... but this one is hot beyond hot, and knows how to use it. In a world where they keep you in silks and make you sex objects, imagine how long it would take to learn how to use your weapons.

slave: "Master, I want to be yours forever, but being a slave crushes my spirit and makes me hold back."

Master: "You are a slave ... you will always be my slave."

slave: "yes Master" ~mentally moves on to the next guy down the line.

--------

slave: "My master is cruel to me and hurts me soooooo bad. I wish I could be with you." (said while giving a blowjob)

Master #2: "Poor slave, let me make you MINE."

slave: "Yes Master"

So ... the slave becomes the property of the new Master, and ...

--------

slave: "Master, I'm sorry I can't give myself fully ... every time I try I remember that I'm just a slave and it reminds me of that cruel Master."

Master #2: "My poor little girl"

-------

I think you see where this is going. [;)]



greenie -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 7:04:08 AM)

i'm confused by this. i'm not into Gor but let me see if i can get this straight because i think that i must be misreading what you wrote...
Are you saying that if a girl is hot there is no way she could actually be completely submissive to her owner? Or are you saying that for those of us that truly desire a submissive life must not be attractive? i'm sure i'm misreading you. Maybe it's just too early in the morning and my brain isn't functioning yet.



kry -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 7:08:33 AM)

So shallow... brain hurts... ARGH!



smilezz -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 7:14:28 AM)

I have never seen this type of display from a r/t Gorean family. Therefore, not a problem.

~smilezz~



darkinshadows -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 7:23:39 AM)

I have a suggestion caitlyn - try and get out more and find a practising Gorean Household and see where fantasy Gor and Gorean Life are actually different - Just like online BDSM is different to those who experiment and practise outside the net.

Peace and Love



RavenofPK -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 7:42:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn


Because a very high percentage of men will do whatever it takes to get a trophy girl ... plain and simple. I'm not saying ALL men, so lets get that clear ... but it's such a high percentage, that hot girls will always get what they want, because they will always be able to find some guy willing to give it to them.

I mean get real ... imagine the little "barely legal" coin girl with the 40 year old warrior ... sure all the slaves are hot and willing ... but this one is hot beyond hot, and knows how to use it. In a world where they keep you in silks and make you sex objects, imagine how long it would take to learn how to use your weapons.


[;)]


Actual Gorean men (and yes, we are out there) are not that weak or easily manipulated. You've obviously been hanging around the wrong crowd.




mnottertail -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 7:44:08 AM)

Well, all the things that caitlyn mentioned could easily happen in anti-Gor or whatever you call it. Hot girls and shallow people and HNGs and clueless men abound in the world.

I don't see this as a problem with Gor or even the fanatically anti-Gors. Just a problem with people.

Ron



Veav -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 8:04:29 AM)

While not too hip on the Gor thing, let me give a little feedback here...

quote:

Because a very high percentage of men will do whatever it takes to get a trophy girl ... plain and simple. I'm not saying ALL men, so lets get that clear ... but it's such a high percentage, that hot girls will always get what they want, because they will always be able to find some guy willing to give it to them.

That's Earth.

quote:

...the hottest girls would end up slaves, or even semi-submissive free women ... the hottest girls would end up being these helpless little sex objects ... men would look at them with aloof detatchement, until it's time for sex.

That's Gor.

I don't know whether or not these statements are accurate or representative - I do know that it's a fantasy setting, and to its adherents, a philosophy. That means it's going to be different from Earth, and probably different from your philosophy. So, y'know... calling it unrealistic, I guess that's true, because... it's based on something that's not real, just like Star Trek. (Star Trek is based on many things that aren't real, in fact!)

But if the adherents to the philosophy are enjoying themselves or fulfilling some need, does it matter? It's still probably a fun place to play in, and anyone will tell you that a "modern Gorean" can be just as polite and civil towards women as any vanilla man. So why are you taking offense? If WIITWD was based on a thousand-year-old manuscript left by a mad monk who also described elegant stringlike monsters, each a thousand strong and tangled into a knot of snarling, hissing malevolence, would that somehow invalidate dom/sub relationships? Let's bring the metaphor closer to home - if it also stated that our individual temperments (master, slave, dom, sub, etc.) were based on astrological signs and the phases of the moon, would you be clamoring "The Problem With D/S... I know a Sagittarius who would never wear a collar!"

Speaking of the topic, that's what it comes down to. "The Problem With Gor"... why do you think it's a problem? And is it not possible to be more diplomatic, "One Thing About Gor" or "Something I'm Wondering About Gor"? This thread is going to devolve into snarky snips fast because you're approaching this from a position of rude disbelief and others are going to approach it from a position of annoyed reproach. Nothing productive will occur here. So why'd you post?



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 8:08:30 AM)

A great attempt, but this isn't logic, this is just a way of living.

Secondly, hot young girls are just as liable to be insecure and ready to have a strong warrior type come into their lives and take care of them. The Gor standard feeds into this dynamic wholeheartedly.

If people want to express their relationship with particular rituals and expectations, I say go for it, as long as everyone understands the score and is fulfilled by it.



stef -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 8:42:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

Actual Gorean men (and yes, we are out there) are not that weak or easily manipulated.

'Actual Gorean men' are manipulated just as easily as other men. They have the same baggage and the same buttons other men have. It's just one of the things that makes you a human being.

~stef



MemphisDsCouple -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 8:58:36 AM)

I'm not a Gor d/s, s&m, bdsm person. But I did read most all of the books back when (or not long after) they first came out. (Dating myself here.) While I liked the books in their time and place (very racy for the mass market in their time) and while I even buy into some of the writer's observations about sexuality and the interaction of the genders - I find that when it's time to put books down or turn a movie off I like a personal life and relationship that is grounded in fact, not in fantasy fiction.

One of the observations John Norman continually makes in his Gor series, and in which I find personally find observable truth, is Norman's repeated contention that a very high percentage of the men in our society have allowed themselves to become just plain wimps when it comes to their relationships with women. ....shrug... What they do and how they do it is their business. But I will say this:

When (or more likely *if*) the OP runs across a man who won't be manipulated by the very valid and illustrative examples of the woman/slave manipulating the so-called "masters" cited in the OP..... then the conclusion the OP reaches (which is entirely valid given the examples) may change!

I agree with the OP. The vast majority of men in our society fit in those examples and react just the way the OP is describing.

The OP may not have met the very rare exception.

And what does that say for the hopes of the need-to-be slave girls among us? The prognosis may not be good. But I suppose that's a topic for another thread.



RavenofPK -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 9:07:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

'Actual Gorean men' are manipulated just as easily as other men. They have the same baggage and the same buttons other men have. It's just one of the things that makes you a human being.

~stef


No. You are highly incorrect. The Gorean men I know do not allow that type of behavior to happen. Does that make us better? No. It makes us different. Do not attempt to lower us to the level of most of the rest of the male gender by playing the "makes you a human being" card.



happypervert -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 9:12:27 AM)

quote:

Do not attempt to lower us to the level of most of the rest of the male gender by playing the "makes you a human being" card.

Far better to let your own arrogance and delusions place you above the rest of the male gender.



RavenofPK -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 9:23:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: happypervert

quote:

One of the observations John Norman continually makes in his Gor series, and in which I find personally find observable truth, is Norman's repeated contention that a very high percentage of the men in our society have allowed themselves to become just plain wimps when it comes to their relationships with women.



That is a quote from MemphisDsCouple's post. It basically echoes the statement I made that bent your nose out of shape. Just because I didn't say it with kind, frilly, kiss-your-ass words does not invalidate it's truth.

Accept it or not. I will not change to suit your sensibilities.



stef -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 9:24:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

No. You are highly incorrect. The Gorean men I know do not allow that type of behavior to happen. Does that make us better? No. It makes us different. Do not attempt to lower us to the level of most of the rest of the male gender by playing the "makes you a human being" card.

It's not about the male gender, it's about man as a species. A species which you are undeniably a member of. Everyone can be manipulated, even if they are too pompous to believe it.

~stef



Lordandmaster -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 9:24:27 AM)

Now there's a walking contradiction. You're not better, you're just different--but then you object when other people "LOWER you to the level of most of the rest of the male gender."

(And that would be male SEX, not male gender.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK

Does that make us better? No. It makes us different. Do not attempt to lower us to the level of most of the rest of the male gender by playing the "makes you a human being" card.




DesertRat -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 9:42:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK


quote:

ORIGINAL: sfgrrl

'Actual Gorean men' are manipulated just as easily as other men. They have the same baggage and the same buttons other men have. It's just one of the things that makes you a human being.

~stef


No. You are highly incorrect. The Gorean men I know do not allow that type of behavior to happen. Does that make us better? No. It makes us different. Do not attempt to lower us to the level of most of the rest of the male gender by playing the "makes you a human being" card.



Gee...some of the Gorean men I know DO allow that behavior to happen. So you're not different, after all. Not that this is a very important issue anyway. What is an 'actual' Gorean? Is Worf a real Klingon?

Bob



Guest -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 9:56:03 AM)

Lets keep the flames to a minium on this thread or it will be pulled.It's already running a fine line.



mnottertail -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 10:11:13 AM)

ModTen, can't you just snip the nasties? Hell, me first........
This is the type of stuff that we need to talk out here in this community. While it is a little pompous to say that this is nearing a race war; we gotta live together. There will inevitably be prejudicial statements on both sides: Goreans live in fantasy; no Anti-Goreans do........ That's about all that is being slung here. Knock it off, assholes. Express your opinions, listen to your opposition, even the most outlandish have something to consider.

YOU MODS ARE DOING A HELL OF A JOB(Thankless as it is). SIGNED, RON

Be Gorean/AntiGorean all you want. But don't come here looking for your humanity if you ain't got none, people.

Crossly,
Ron



Kinkypupper -> RE: The Problem With Gor (8/20/2005 10:12:40 AM)

HELLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

THIS is not Gor is is a total fantasy world. It does not Exist.

There are people to practice what they feel it is but if i remember a line correctly (From a VERY VERY bad movie) Gor is close, its this close its within each one of us wanting to get out,

It is whatever YOU want to make of it. Computer chat rooms and role play is also not reality. PLEASE find me a 24/7 REAL relationship that exists in reality with all the tenants of "GOR". That has lasted ohh say longer then 2 years.

There are some things about it in reality and some REAL people do use some of the protocols and such. But what you say as well is however true in onecontext " A HOT chick as in a la 8-10 can get whatever SHE wants" but all that says is that she is a manipulating bitch, and NOT a submissive or possable slave.



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