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Culture, philosophy, and morality


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Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 8:32:17 AM   
AbsitInvidia


Posts: 164
Joined: 11/23/2007
Status: offline 		I've seen quite a bit here that separates the "customs" of Gor vs. the "philosophy" of Gor and I have to start a thread about it.  I personally fail to see how (for example) people can support the philosophy that slaves are livestock without supporting the customs that arise from that philosophy (i.e., treating the slave like livestock in the manner done so in the books).

Ignoring human law for the moment, I want to focus more on the morals of the thing.  Yes it is illegal to feed a disobedient slave who has proven herself useless to other animals...but is it immoral?  To the men out there who call slaves livestock...how would you react to knowing that a man killed a slave and served her to a pen of hogs as a warning to his other slaves?  Yes he broke the law, but in your eyes, was it morally wrong?  In some states oral sex is against the law, and it's possible to see oral sex as not morally wrong.  So what about treating a slave like livestock?

Is it morally wrong for a man to rape your slave on her way home from the store, if he does not damage your property in any way?  Or is it a worse crime for her to fight back?  And, in answering that question, are you not also answering the question "is it a slave's duty to be absolutely pleasing to men?"

The questions I've posted are more to think about than to answer...I don't think it's so easy to separate the 'customs' from the 'philosophy' as, in that world, the two are deeply intertwined.  The customs exist because the philosophy supports them, and the philosophy exists because it was shaped by the customs.  If you're going to pull out a scalpel and separate the two...where exactly is the line you would slice?


_____________________________

-=SixFoot and Soshi=-

What most people call rights are merely social norms, they are expectations - but expectations can and will be violated on a daily basis. On her knees. In the mud. Hard, and savagely. Expectations likes it like that.
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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 11:14:10 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
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quote:

Is it morally wrong for a man to rape your slave on her way home from the store, if he does not damage your property in any way?


Your question admits of no rational answer. 

"Rape" as a sexual act requires a lack of consent on the part of the person raped.  If a slave has no authority to decide for herself, she can neither give nor withhold consent to sex.    On that basis, it would be impossible to "rape" said slave.

Further, the word "rape" in the minds of many would suggest a measure of damage to the slave.  Even if "rape" were a philosophical possibility, "rape" without damage would for many represent a contradiction in terms.



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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 11:31:56 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
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quote:


Further, the word "rape" in the minds of many would suggest a measure of damage to the slave.  Even if "rape" were a philosophical possibility, "rape" without damage would for many represent a contradiction in terms


Celtic,Greetings,

  Well stated, very well stated, indeed.

Maahsatti

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 11:43:32 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Greetings Maahsatti, and thank you.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 2:26:05 PM   
AbsitInvidia


Posts: 164
Joined: 11/23/2007
Status: offline 		Okay, what if your ugly best friend had sex with your slave, and she had no interest in it?

As far as the damage of rape, the majority of it is psychological.  From what I understand 'true' Goreans aren't the type to coddle a slave's fragile psyche.  Is she not a piece of property who is to be pleasing to all?  Where does this psyche come into the equation?  Fucking a slave is not the emotional act of making love - as long as all the holes are in good working order any slave can be fucked.

Regardless, you're picking at the detail rather than at the question.  The detail was there as an example; the question still stands. 

How can one claim to adhere to a philosophy, yet condemn the customs that are supported by that philosophy?


_____________________________

-=SixFoot and Soshi=-

What most people call rights are merely social norms, they are expectations - but expectations can and will be violated on a daily basis. On her knees. In the mud. Hard, and savagely. Expectations likes it like that.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 2:39:48 PM   
lynne46


Posts: 5
Joined: 2/14/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings AbsitInvidia
greetings Free of the board
greetings slaves

As this is a girl's first post, she will keep her thoughts short and sweet.

Morality and philosophy are reality.

The details of the customs you speak of are fictional.

Wishing all most well and a blessed holiday season.

lynne


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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 2:47:39 PM   
AbsitInvidia


Posts: 164
Joined: 11/23/2007
Status: offline 		Yes, and many of them are quite illegal in most countries.  But what of the morality of it?  If one's philosophy says a slave *is* something, regardless of legality how can it be immoral to *treat* the slave as the thing she is?

I'm certainly not wondering why nobody does these things here...I'm just wondering why they condemn it on moral grounds as well as legal ones.  If a slave has no rights, as many have asserted, how can it be immoral to treat the slave as if she had no rights?  Regardless of what the Masters reading this would or wouldn't do...someone would do it.  And that someone would be perfectly within the morality of the philosophy to do so.  Presuming the man served out his jail sentence without complaint, can he really be condemned as immoral?  Or is his crime simply a legal one?

The laws of the land would presumably be a matter of the Home Stone of the country in which the man resides...but (by Gorean standards) in his own residence he is sovereign.  So long as he does the time, where does the immorality lie?


_____________________________

-=SixFoot and Soshi=-

What most people call rights are merely social norms, they are expectations - but expectations can and will be violated on a daily basis. On her knees. In the mud. Hard, and savagely. Expectations likes it like that.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 4:37:19 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AbsitInvidia

Okay, what if your ugly best friend had sex with your slave, and she had no interest in it?

As far as the damage of rape, the majority of it is psychological.  From what I understand 'true' Goreans aren't the type to coddle a slave's fragile psyche.  Is she not a piece of property who is to be pleasing to all?  Where does this psyche come into the equation?  Fucking a slave is not the emotional act of making love - as long as all the holes are in good working order any slave can be fucked.

Regardless, you're picking at the detail rather than at the question.  The detail was there as an example; the question still stands. 

How can one claim to adhere to a philosophy, yet condemn the customs that are supported by that philosophy?



The question does not stand.  Leaving aside the particulars of Gorean philosophy--necessary, as I am not a Gorean and do not speak from that perspective--your question still is internally inconsistent.  Missing from your missive is an articulation of your presumption of the slave's power to consent to anything, including sex.  If the slave has no power to consent, then the question devolves to one of how does one enforce respect towards one's property; if the slave has the power to consent, then the question becomes self-referential and thus already answered.

Would you be so kind as to articulate which customs are condemned by Goreans yet supported by Gorean philosophy?  This non-Gorean is most intrigued by that question.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 4:48:05 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

If a slave has no rights, as many have asserted, how can it be immoral to treat the slave as if she had no rights?


Mere lack of rights or personal power on the part of the slave does not automatically absolve any who does violence to a slave from moral responsibility.  Rights, as frequently articulated by many, are the province of humans, yet the wanton destruction of other animals by humans has been roundly condemned in several cultures throughout several generations.  The bison has no intrinsic "right to life"--yet few would argue that recreational slaughter of this animal was a most immoral act by American frontiersman and pioneers of the 19th century.

Perhaps if you articulated specific acts towards slaves, and challenged the morality thereof, the discussion could move forward on a rational basis.


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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 5:13:07 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		If you really want the answers, you can read the plethora of posts in this forum.

To put it simply, you are basing your question on incorrect assumptions. My girl is not for everyone's use, and most Goreans are of the same mind in that. You do not let just anyone borrow your car. If it is a valued possession, then you are even more discriminant with it's use. You have already made up in your mind, how things are, so you are posting just to bait and argue.

Your questions and arguments do not use logic. It is unlikely you will get anyone to waste much time with the likes of you.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 5:44:58 PM   
AbsitInvidia


Posts: 164
Joined: 11/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

If a slave has no rights, as many have asserted, how can it be immoral to treat the slave as if she had no rights?


Mere lack of rights or personal power on the part of the slave does not automatically absolve any who does violence to a slave from moral responsibility.  Rights, as frequently articulated by many, are the province of humans, yet the wanton destruction of other animals by humans has been roundly condemned in several cultures throughout several generations.  The bison has no intrinsic "right to life"--yet few would argue that recreational slaughter of this animal was a most immoral act by American frontiersman and pioneers of the 19th century.

Perhaps if you articulated specific acts towards slaves, and challenged the morality thereof, the discussion could move forward on a rational basis.



Well to continue from your post, does the Master of a slave have a moral responsibility not to do violence to her?

As far as specific acts go, I will make a short list of examples.  These examples are illegal in most countries.  However I'm not questioning the legality of such acts, but rather the morality.  A Gorean (from Gor, in the books) will see no immorality in the following acts.  And the reason is the philosophy of Gor - A slave is property, whose duties are exquisite beauty and absolute obedience.  As the books say, a slave is to be pleasing to all men.  A slave's duty is to her Master first, to all other Free second, but she still has a duty to be pleasing.

But consider the following acts, irrelevant of legality.  Are they moral or immoral?

1. Having a beautiful woman flirt with you and try to get you to take her home with her, you decide she is wantonly courting the collar, therefore you capture her and make her what she truly is - a sex slave.

2. Entering into a consensual relationship with a slave, but after collaring her, treating her as property with no rights and therefore:
a. forcibly branding (mutilating) her against her will (and regardless of her 'right' to consent, a slave is still a thinking person who has preferences.  "against her will" is not used in a legal sense for consent, but rather making a choice that she will do something she has absolutely no desire to do)
b. offering her sexual services to others, against her will
c. refusing to allow her to withdraw consent and end the relationship
d. forcibly restraining her to keep her in your servitude
e. sterilizing her against her will - tubes being tied are the closest to slave wine here
f. selling her to a willing buyer if she is not pleasing to you (impossible?  ask the Organizastaya.)

Obviously illegal.  And IMO, immoral.  Yet supported by the philosophy that Goreans in the book follow.

Orion - The plethora of posts on the forum are what inspired the question.  So much says that it's the philosophy that matters, not the customs, yet I don't see a single man in the books (who truly live the philosophy) having any moral qualms with any of the acts I listed above.  Why not?  Because the philosophy supports it.

I'm perfectly aware that there are slaves in the books that are just for the owner's use.  That's not what I'm questioning at all, and I'm wondering if you're missing the point or just choosing to pick at the sides of the argument rather than answer the core of it.

I'm not saying that you *have* to do any of the things I listed to be a "true" Gorean.  I'm just saying that if someone else did it...would you condemn them for it? 

In one of my posts on the other thread, I said that it's impossible to be a 'true' Gorean and a 'true' Christian at the same time.  Certain parts of both of those philosophies contradict one another.  This is the same way that the philosophy (saying things are not immoral) conflicts with the law (saying they are illegal).

As far as making up my mind about how things are...I've made up my mind that it is better to follow the parts of a philosophy that apply rather than to adopt the entire thing, even the parts that conflict with one's morality.  At this point I'm not quite sure what the answer to the question I asked will be.  I wouldn't be surprised if there was a person here who said all the things that I listed are perfectly moral.

But for those who don't, how is the conflict resolved?  How would you explain to a man who considered those acts moral that the law supersedes his philosophy in matters of morality (not legality)?  That he should sacrifice his own beliefs to fit in to the western value system? 

If a man never acts on any of the things listed, but believes that they are perfectly moral, would you agree or disagree?


_____________________________

-=SixFoot and Soshi=-

What most people call rights are merely social norms, they are expectations - but expectations can and will be violated on a daily basis. On her knees. In the mud. Hard, and savagely. Expectations likes it like that.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 5:49:01 PM   
BeingChewsie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AbsitInvidia

Yes, and many of them are quite illegal in most countries.  But what of the morality of it?  If one's philosophy says a slave *is* something, regardless of legality how can it be immoral to *treat* the slave as the thing she is?


Not Gorean but I don't think it is immoral to treat her like what she is..which is property. I would think it was more like theft vs rape, it is an issue between the men.

quote:



If a slave has no rights, as many have asserted, how can it be immoral to treat the slave as if she had no rights?  Regardless of what the Masters reading this would or wouldn't do...someone would do it.  And that someone would be perfectly within the morality of the philosophy to do so.  Presuming the man served out his jail sentence without complaint, can he really be condemned as immoral?  Or is his crime simply a legal one?


The morality lies not within the treatment of the slave but between the conduct and codes of the men. R would see it as theft of something that he owns, he finds stealing "immoral" on a personal level but believes we are just animals and stronger animals often take from weaker animals.


< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 12/25/2007 5:54:38 PM >

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"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 5:49:45 PM   
Totalmaster4you


Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Tal to the Free and property,
Greetings Absit,
 
IMO morality is usually bound up in some type of religion or spirituality and your linking it to legal or philosophical beliefs is an attempt to make Goreans appear to be contradictory in their beliefs or statements. However the linkage does not work because one thing is emotion based where the other is logic based. However for funz let's say a Gorean owns his own island. If this were fictional book Gor there's no question that a slave may be disposed of as an example or simply because she's too much trouble. However living Goreans, although they consider slaves to be possessions, value them in such a way that it's doubtful that they would dispose of them in that or any manner. That being said if a Gorean owned an island and therefore faced no legal repercussions and the slave had been told that was possible before submitting, then if the slave was terminally disobedient and they had exhausted all remedies, then yes the slave could be theoretically disposed of. But that's where the question makes no sense. If the slave makes an educated and voluntary decision to become a slave then why would she misbehave to the point of needing to be made an example? In the final analysis the question makes no sense. Even going back to your rape example, you set it up where the slave has been told to be pleasing to men. On fictional Gor there is no rape as slaves are frequently used by men other than their Masters. If a Master didn't wish this he would place her in a chastity belt or not let her out. In the books there were no diseases or other consequences to be concerned with that we do have here. So here a slave is given more specific instructions and limits. Here also (unlike Gor) the protocols are not to use another man's slave without his permission. If they were on that fictional island the interloper would find the protocol enforced by steel. As before the problem is the premise of the question. It's not designed to learn but rather an effort to make Goreans appear contradictory. In the end, IMO and has been said elsewhere, this is a poor reflection on the Master of this slave.
 
Happy Holidays to all,
TM4Y

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Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 6:00:13 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

2. Entering into a consensual relationship with a slave, but after collaring her, treating her as property with no rights and therefore:
a. forcibly branding (mutilating) her against her will (and regardless of her 'right' to consent, a slave is still a thinking person who has preferences. "against her will" is not used in a legal sense for consent, but rather making a choice that she will do something she has absolutely no desire to do)
b. offering her sexual services to others, against her will
c. refusing to allow her to withdraw consent and end the relationship
d. forcibly restraining her to keep her in your servitude
e. sterilizing her against her will - tubes being tied are the closest to slave wine here
f. selling her to a willing buyer if she is not pleasing to you (impossible? ask the Organizastaya.)


You are attempting to argue both sides of a premise.  Either a slave has rights/power/will or she has none.  The two moral states are mutually exclusive--regardless of whether one's philosophy is Gorean or elsewhere derived.

State plainly whether you consider a slave to have power/rights/will of her own even after she is collared.  Absent that, a reasoned answer to your questions is not possible.

If you will not state that position plainly, then there is no purpose in further discourse on the matter.


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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 6:04:13 PM   
AbsitInvidia


Posts: 164
Joined: 11/23/2007
Status: offline 		It's not an attempt to make Goreans seem contradictory.

It is an assertation that I see a contradiction.  I'm not making a presentation here, running the lecture circuit and saying "Oh my goodness look at these Goreans here, they make no sense." 

I am positing a question TO the people involved.  I'm talking TO the people whose philosophy is confusing me, and asking them if they have a resolution to it.

What you said is interesting, that morality is linked to religion and not philosophy...but I've known quite a few atheists who have very strong moral codes yet disdain religion.  I'm not sure why you say morality is emotion based, would you explain?

If what confuses you is why a voluntary slave would be displeasing...let's just suppose that slavery didn't live up to her expectations.  She was collared, and a year later realized she was miserable and wanted to go home.  So you have this girl utterly miserable on an island in the middle of nowhere.  And she is a slave. 

The most relevant book I can think of is the one whose name I forgot (kinda hard to keep track of them when they all end in "of Gor") where a girl named Elinor was kidnapped and was absolutely miserable in her slavery.  The solution to misery in slavery seems to be a combination of violence and reward to break the spirit.  Not to say "oh okay sweetie, you don't have to be a slave anymore, I'll take you home now."

Moral or immoral?


_____________________________

-=SixFoot and Soshi=-

What most people call rights are merely social norms, they are expectations - but expectations can and will be violated on a daily basis. On her knees. In the mud. Hard, and savagely. Expectations likes it like that.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 6:09:31 PM   
AbsitInvidia


Posts: 164
Joined: 11/23/2007
Status: offline 		In the Gorean paradigm which is the one I am making my points within, a slave has no legal power.  That may or may not be my own belief, but it is the belief of the system that I'm discussing and it will be the paradigm this discussion takes place in.  A slave most likely also has no physical power over her Master, in that he can beat her into submission, but a crafty slave might get her hands on a weapon, so I can't say she has no will, but I will say she has no right to exercise that will.

That does not mean a slave has no preferences.  Having no legal power to decide whether to wear blue or pink does not mean that you can't have a preference of which colour you like better.  In fact you can think pink is absolutely hideous and be miserable wearing it...but still have no power to change the fact that you must wear it every day.

Like I said before - I'm using the term 'against her will' to mean it's something she does not WANT to do.  Something that will make her unhappy.  Something distasteful.


_____________________________

-=SixFoot and Soshi=-

What most people call rights are merely social norms, they are expectations - but expectations can and will be violated on a daily basis. On her knees. In the mud. Hard, and savagely. Expectations likes it like that.

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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 6:16:37 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

In the Gorean paradigm which is the one I am making my points within, a slave has no legal power.


This is a nonsensical answer, since you explicitly excluded legalities in your original post.

quote:

Ignoring human law for the moment, I want to focus more on the morals of the thing.


Arguing both sides of a premise is bad form.  Pick a side and stick to it.

FYI--saying you "may or may not believe" the premise does not qualify as plain speaking.


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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 6:19:27 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Well to continue from your post, does the Master of a slave have a moral responsibility not to do violence to her?


My non-Gorean answer is that a master has a moral responsibility to care for his property and increase her value to him.


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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 9:05:25 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AbsitInvidia

Okay, what if your ugly best friend had sex with your slave, and she had no interest in it?


If I said it's okay, then it's okay. If I didn't, then someone has used my property without permission. Which basically translates to not being my best friend anymore, unless there is a damn good reason for it. That goes for all property I value. Ask your Master how he would respond if someone used his PC without permission. If his relation to his PC is anything like mine, that should provide a valuable insight as to the nature of this issue.

What is your value to your Master, and how would you respond to such a thing?

Therein lies the answer to the question at any given time.

quote:

As far as the damage of rape, the majority of it is psychological.


Actually, the majority of it derives from societal feedback. Rape in itself is no more or less traumatic than any other form of assault. But cognitive dissonance arising from the cultural expectations associated with the experience, along with the feedback from the surrounding society, aggravate this damage to the point where it becomes significantly greater. You might want to read up on that at some point, as it has much relevance to the process of flowering as a slave.

quote:

From what I understand 'true' Goreans aren't the type to coddle a slave's fragile psyche.


I'd never coddle her. That would be an insult, and one that is not called for. However, I always bear in mind what state she is in, what she needs, and so forth. Tim touched on this in his thread. I do not eat until every pet in this house has been properly cared for, human or not. And I do not mistreat any of them. Instead, like a gardener, I tend to my garden, whether that means weeding, fertilizing, watering, nipping buds, or whatever.

Goreans aren't stupid; we know full well that humans have limitations and that choices have consequences.
It would be a poor slave indeed that I valued so little as to run her into the ground.
Which begs the question: why not kick such a slave out, instead?
Indeed, why pick such a slave up in the first place?

quote:

Is she not a piece of property who is to be pleasing to all?


Even absolutes are relative. Search for the phrase "ethics of care" or "concentric circles" if you wish. The Gorean morality embraces the notion that our responsibilities are such that they are less relevant the further out from the center they get. And all slaves must have some manner of morality, even if it is one that is appropriate to her role. The one intended for kajira is a virtue ethic, with the virtues of Beauty (in effect, being pleasing in nature and behavior) and Obedience being espoused. And, as such, obedience to one's owner trumps obedience to anyone further out, like a random stranger. But the default position remains obedience, in the absence of a conflict. Similar things hold for beauty.

quote:

Where does this psyche come into the equation?


Where does the engine of a car come into the equation of owning and driving one?

quote:

Fucking a slave is not the emotional act of making love - as long as all the holes are in good working order any slave can be fucked.


Your point being?

quote:

How can one claim to adhere to a philosophy, yet condemn the customs that are supported by that philosophy?


One can question whether or not certain customs are, in fact, supported by it or not.
And, further, these customs exist only in a given context; that context is Gor.
Here on Earth, the context is different, and thus also the customs.

Do you stone people? Probably not. Yet it's a custom of your faith (as I recall). Do you not have faith, then? See, the thing is that the custom of stoning doesn't fit in the current context, even if it fit in the old context. And so you don't do it. This is, I would hope, not because you are compromising your faith to fit with what is convenient, but rather because the modern context is an input that provides a different output from the same process.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Culture, philosophy, and morality - 12/25/2007 9:20:51 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AbsitInvidia

If a slave has no rights, as many have asserted, how can it be immoral to treat the slave as if she had no rights?


Because it's not about the slaves, as we keep telling people. It is really all about the free men and women. Whether a slave has any rights or not, does not matter in this regard; instead, it is quite simply a case of what is the best possible behavior for her owner, by Gorean standards, as we strive toward that elusive goal of perfection, both in thoughts and in deeds. And in most cases, dismembering her is simply not a step in the right direction.

quote:

Regardless of what the Masters reading this would or wouldn't do...someone would do it.


Someone will always do something.

quote:

And that someone would be perfectly within the morality of the philosophy to do so.


Under certain conditions, if not prevented from doing so (e.g. by allegiance to a Home Stone that does not permit it), it is not morally objectionable. But here on Earth, it is not easy to come up with hypothetical scenarios wherein a man would both come to have a slave, keep her, and arrive at a crossroads where killing or maiming is the most decent, honorable and desirable course of action. The only one that comes to mind is starvation.

Again, a Gorean treats others based on their merits and what treatment they have earned.

What man would want a slave that merits, or has earned, such a fate?

quote:

The laws of the land would presumably be a matter of the Home Stone of the country in which the man resides...


A country does not a Home Stone make, although one may still choose to have allegiance to it.

quote:

but (by Gorean standards) in his own residence he is sovereign.


Which does not magically absolve him of a moral obligation to be the best man he can be.

quote:

So long as he does the time, where does the immorality lie?


Hopefully, that has been made clear above; if not, here's the cliff notes version:

- It's not about what is done to the slave, but what he does.
- All other considerations being equal, there is no inherent immorality in it.
- In no cases are all other considerations actually equal, and most are immoral for other reasons.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to AbsitInvidia)
Profile   Post #: 20
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