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Shun the nonbelievers!


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Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 10:17:29 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline 		Good morning or good afternoon.
I am reading some posts "shun", "group ostracizing", "blacklisting", etc, and I am, frankly, horrified at the thought of what some of the ramifications of these actions entail.  Before you think I am after a "kinder, gentler Gor", let me assure you I am not.  However, shunning, blacklisting, and things of that ilk have been tried unsuccessfully in our Western Society (on a large scale, think McCarthyism and the blacklists of the 50's).  Amish shun their members when they don't toe the line exactly, and the shunning is often subjective. 

When we shun people, we close our minds to other ideas and we no longer allow that person to grow by learning from us.  I have seen among my friends deep and significant changes in their journey through this ethos.  Had I "shunned" them, my life would be much less rich.  The very prejudice we face as Goreans is often a shunning of sorts. 

I am fine with thinking to myself, "hey I don't really want to deal with that persons opinions today", or dismissing a person myself  after they have shown repeatedly they are not going to teach me anything new or just are interested in drama, but to have some group "shun"?  I don't think so.  I think it is the very thing we as Goreans have to wrestle with all the time. 

Ostracizing someone like a pack of hormone-loaded teenaged girls is not the answer.  I think individuals have the right, and the ability, to ignore someone, to delete or block or no longer participate with someone.  Those tools are here for us to use.  The fact is, we seldom truly use them.  If enough individuals really did what  they said they were going to do (ignore a person), in time, that person would go away.  The opposite of love is not hate or any sort of emotional attention, the opposite is indifference.  That is, to me, the best weapon of choice, mano a mano, not groupthink.

I wish you well
Y

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 10:29:00 AM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		The classic hallmark of a cult is when its members begin to shun outside opinions and purge membership of unorthodox thought. While it may be a broad brush, I have witnessed this behavior within Gorean chatrooms and message boards over the past 9 years or so, where ardent "true believers" act to maintain the "purity" of Gorean thought, wanting to preserve it from the pollution of outside views.
The only thing we should shun is the grape Kool-aid.

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 10:54:20 AM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings ygraine,
 
Well said and a good reminder as we end one year and begin a new one~
 
Reminds me of a quote from the Dalai Lama:
Even our enemy is useful to us because in order to practice compassion we need to practice tolerance, forgiveness and patience...the antidotes to anger.
 
Another quote i like is from Georg C Lichtenberg:
I am convinced we do not only love ourselves in others but hate ourselves in others too.


_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 12:11:38 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

What binds a community together? What good is it to have standards, that there are no consequences if they are not met? Does not life do these very things to us, when we do not learn a lesson about life? So why do we expect certain behavior? If you have any expectations of someone's behavior, then why not have a consequence? It is not about kool aid drinking, being sheep, or anything like that. It is about having some common minimum standards, and that is all it is about.

This is why society has rules and laws.

Is trolling and baiting acceptable? The mods say no, and all of us agree usually.

Is flaming acceptable? The mods say no, and all of us usually agree (depending on circumstance)

Do we no shun criminals? Is that not closing your mind to someone? What about sociopaths? There are lines, and all I suggested is that some of this obnoxious behavior be ignored, and the poster be ignored.

Leave it to someone to make more of it than what it is.

Like I said, there will never be a Gorean community because we would have to be exclusive, and that means shutting some people out. Maybe we should all just be the same.
 
So if a Gorean community was created, I suppose just anyone would be accepted no matter their actions.

Orion



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 12:13:31 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		To an extent this is true, but do we also embrace the worst of humankind? So what about someone that tortures animals for fun? At what point does acceptance end, and you have to make a stand against something? At what point does the sage end, and the warrior begin?

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

Greetings ygraine,
 
Well said and a good reminder as we end one year and begin a new one~
 
Reminds me of a quote from the Dalai Lama:
Even our enemy is useful to us because in order to practice compassion we need to practice tolerance, forgiveness and patience...the antidotes to anger.
 
Another quote i like is from Georg C Lichtenberg:
I am convinced we do not only love ourselves in others but hate ourselves in others too.



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to dawntreader)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 12:18:55 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Howdy Cath,

Gonna disagree with ya on this one chicky.

I feel when an individual shows repeatedly, they are in it for the drama or just can not seem to give respect , basic standard respect, into their mind frame, then they have no business getting it, by acknowledgment.

I do not give what I myself have not gotten or am willing to get, either. as you know.
many yrs ago. I pulled some stunts and then came out with the truth. As a result, not only was I badgered ,belittled and berated, but I was shunned from the community.
Yeah, that above all else hurt the most. It hurt a lot, enough to make me do some hard long thinking, leading to changes, I will go as far as to say, a complete turn around of my thinking and behaviors. It was harsh and cruel, but it did me a world of good.I do not think anything short of that harsh lesson would have done it.
Instead of crying about it though or feeling all sorry for myself, I worked and worked hard to change and be accepted again, to be given another chance and finally to be trusted and respected again.
None of which was given to me on a silver platter, like a lot of these people today, think it should be.
I deserved everything I got and most assuredly, deserved being shunned and if someone brings on such a thing upon themselves, maybe they should stop and think, how and why, look in that mirror and ask those serious questions and hold yourself accountable for those actions leading to such a drastic choice by those in the community around you.
I dont run, hide or make excuses for myself and I do not tolerate it or accept it from others around me.
I am not trying to sound or be cruel or intentionally hurtful, I am just trying to be and give an honest and blunt response to your topic.You know me, you and Liz, know me better then anyone else on this board, both online and off, so I trust , that you know I am not purposely trying to come off as cruel, just plain and honest.

Love ya Toots,
Babs

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 12/30/2007 12:20:39 PM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 12:44:50 PM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline 		hey Babs,
Thank you for your reply. I would be disappointed if it wasnt brutally honest.  I remember those days and remember what it was like, long ago, to be freed and to be ignored and shunned by people who thought it was stupid.  Thank goodness those days are over. 
I do want to say though, that when you "shun" someone, you without meaning to, give them a certain sort of attention.  It is not really the desired effect.  For example, look what excitement gets stirred up when people are put on "pending approval" status. The buzz beings...what did they do? What is going on? It is a form of attention.
The other thing that makes shunning unworkable is that most likely, the person you shunned did not really respect or value your opinion in the first place.  What has more effect on a woman: some random guy telling them they dont like what they said, or  a man that is deeply respected saying; "you disappointed me".  Even though I am free, that can crush me when it is someone whose opinion I care about and value.
Is this a chicken or an egg story? Which comes first, respect because of a relationship or respect because you are some random free person on line?
I am rambling here but I think the crux of the matter is this: shunning is wasted on those shunned.  It is not worth your time or effort to do it, and it gives the shunee attention.  Overall, not such a great combination.
Y

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 12:50:52 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hiya Cath,

  I hear what your saying. Really I do, but I agree with orion, where do we draw the line?
We have very definate standards and when those standards are repeatedly and purposely trashed, how can we turn a blind eye?How can we just sit back and let it happen and let it go on?
It has to be stopped somewhere somehow.
Personally, i do not care if the person I chose to shun, respects me or not. and while I agree to an extent, you may be giving that person more attention by the action, but it is worse to not do anything. To me that is sending a signal saying. I accept your behavior and condone your continued actions.
Ya know?

Babs

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 1:08:47 PM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~


Do we no shun criminals? Is that not closing your mind to someone? What about sociopaths? There are lines, and all I suggested is that some of this obnoxious behavior be ignored, and the poster be ignored.

Leave it to someone to make more of it than what it is.

Like I said, there will never be a Gorean community because we would have to be exclusive, and that means shutting some people out. Maybe we should all just be the same.
 
So if a Gorean community was created, I suppose just anyone would be accepted no matter their actions.

Orion





Interesting that I made "more out of it than it is." I don't think so.  When words like shun, blacklisting, ostracizing are used (all of which you used btw) I think it is irresponsible not to step up to the plate. 

As for a suggestion, as one of the men of this community a suggestion carries a lot of weight.  A mere suggestion from a man has more to it than a passing idea. 

As for a gorean community, like any community, people will be part of a community and be found wanting by some, not by others.  I have been to several Gorean gatherings where there were people I could not stand, but I participated because of the greater enjoyment of the event.  In the end, it always worked out fine.  We tend to gravitate to people we like and shy away from people we don't.  Walking away as an individual is fine.  Sitting down as a group ( a living community) and sharing wants and needs and ways to improve is fine.  Shunning someone in an on-line community is fruitless and just draws attention to the one shunned.

I dont consider this a "community," I guess.  My Gorean community is with my off line friends and aquaintances and I am cool with that.  I am pretty indifferent to the antics of the whackos here. People can say things they would never say in person in this venue, and it is harder to discern the real person.

Did you ever see the TV show "The Paper Chase"? In it, the law student Hart was "shrouded" by his professor (Hart was schlepping the professors daughter but never mind that). Hart showed up the next day in a shroud and sat in class. He won the "shunning" battle because he was able to point out how futile and silly it was, and he was able to get more attention for himself. 



_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 1:59:44 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Good morning or good afternoon.
I am reading some posts "shun", "group ostracizing", "blacklisting", etc, and I am, frankly, horrified at the thought of what some of the ramifications of these actions entail.  Before you think I am after a "kinder, gentler Gor", let me assure you I am not.  However, shunning, blacklisting, and things of that ilk have been tried unsuccessfully in our Western Society (on a large scale, think McCarthyism and the blacklists of the 50's).  Amish shun their members when they don't toe the line exactly, and the shunning is often subjective.


You sure do read alot more into something, than what is there. Is there a reason you are looking at the extreme position? Also, socially ostracizing unacceptable behavior is very effective for animals that are not solitary in nature.   What premise do you use to say that it is unsuccessful?

quote:


When we shun people, we close our minds to other ideas and we no longer allow that person to grow by learning from us.  I have seen among my friends deep and significant changes in their journey through this ethos.  Had I "shunned" them, my life would be much less rich.  The very prejudice we face as Goreans is often a shunning of sorts. 


Shunning does not automatically equate to closing your mind. It means that you do not voluntarily interact with that person. This can come in many forms, and is proven to be very effective in wolf packs and dolphin pods. Do you consider the Gorean Way of life to be inclusive of all people, or exclusive to those that believe a certain way?

quote:


I am fine with thinking to myself, "hey I don't really want to deal with that persons opinions today", or dismissing a person myself  after they have shown repeatedly they are not going to teach me anything new or just are interested in drama, but to have some group "shun"?  I don't think so.  I think it is the very thing we as Goreans have to wrestle with all the time. 


So what do you think of laws in society that locks a person away? Are they automatically bad because you did not do it, or maybe you do not agree with it? 

quote:


Ostracizing someone like a pack of hormone-loaded teenaged girls is not the answer.  I think individuals have the right, and the ability, to ignore someone, to delete or block or no longer participate with someone.  Those tools are here for us to use.  The fact is, we seldom truly use them.  If enough individuals really did what  they said they were going to do (ignore a person), in time, that person would go away.  The opposite of love is not hate or any sort of emotional attention, the opposite is indifference.  That is, to me, the best weapon of choice, mano a mano, not groupthink.

I wish you well
Y


You seem to be saying it is okay for the effect of ostracizing occurs, as long as we do not talk about it, and reach that conclusion on our own, is this correct? So then are we all so slavish to sheep mentality, that things cannot be discussed and then each person make their own decision?

How do you create a community if people have opposing standards?

How do you show a consequence to bad behavior, as determined by the society?

Why ever say anything to how anyone acts, as it may create shunning of that person?

You call this "Shun the nonbelievers" based upon a comment I made ina different thread. This title goes way beyond anything that was even implied in that comment. Again I ask, why are you making more of this, than what was there? If you did not understand my comments, then why jump to a sensational and extreme conclusion, when a few questions would have put it in the proper context. Instead you have created a non-existant contention, which is very similar to what is seen in politics.

Orion



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 2:00:58 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings Master

In my opinion there is little need to shun pepole that make bad posts on this forum, this is a web community not a society that needs strict laws. Yes there comes a time when the person is such a big disturbance to the forum that many block him or her to be able to read other posts in peace, but the normal needs to have laws do not exist here so organized shunning is not needed.

Also organized shunning very often turn negative and gets misused. It is easy then to set up a shunning campaign then against pepole that do act well but have unpopular opinions. i think each individual have to judge for them self on the internet if a post or a poster is worth listening to or ignore.

May i wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 2:01:24 PM   
dawntreader


Posts: 3045
Joined: 11/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

...do we also embrace the worst of humankind?
Orion

Yes. The word embrace also means to take in with the eye or the mind. It does not mean we should condone the behavior. Such as when we embrace our own shadow sides...
 
quote:

  At what point does acceptance end, and you have to make a stand against something?


i believe acceptance is related to our own personal morals and ethics. It ends when our tolerance ends and /or the behavior becomes harmful to ourselves and/or others.
As a society, we make rules and laws of acceptability within the community. We create consequences for the breaking of said laws and rules. By supporting the "system" we are publically taking a stand. Privately and personally, we can remove ourselves from dealing with those we find "unacceptable" in accordance with our own beliefs.
 
The same applies to these message boards. We agree to the TOS with the understanding the moderators will enforce infractions with consequences. While they appreciate when we call attention to a violation, it is up to them to enforce it. We are certainly within our own rights to block or ignore but as ygraine pointed out, a public shun is a bit much for someone's freedom of speech that is not to our liking.

In the particular thread that called for the shunning of certain individuals...one of those individuals has personally attacked me on many occasions. It took me looking beyond the superficial meaning of her words and seeing the hurting and wounded spirit behind the vicious tongue and yes, to embrace her brokeness and see aspects of myself in her. i read every message of hers - she teaches me tolerance, compassion and gratefullness. Not because she displays those traits but because she brings them out in me~

quote:

  At what point does the sage end, and the warrior begin?


You asked me this and i am not sure of the answer but it is my quest. In preparation for this, my Sifu gave me this mediatation a couple of days ago.
 
The Verse of Purification
 
All harmful karma ever commited by me since of old
on account of my beginningless greed, anger and ignorance
born of my body, mouth and consciousness
now i atone it all.
 
i think the sage and the warrior are one, just as good and evil are one. Perhaps the warrior protects the sage when the sage reaches out to heal the world - i will find out, i am sure of this~

_____________________________

It is choice - not chance - that determines our destiny~
Jean Nidetch

There is a war going on for your mind...if you are thinking, you are winning~
Flobots

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 2:14:18 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Interesting that I made "more out of it than it is." I don't think so.  When words like shun, blacklisting, ostracizing are used (all of which you used btw) I think it is irresponsible not to step up to the plate. 


Yeah you made more of it than what it is, and you know it. You even say it is okay to do it, as long as you decide to. I did not suggest anything more than that. Shunning is not a permanent thing, but you make it sound that way. I didn't suggest anything close to the 50's crap, but you still used it in comparison. Yeah you made more of it than what it is.

quote:


As for a suggestion, as one of the men of this community a suggestion carries a lot of weight.  A mere suggestion from a man has more to it than a passing idea. 


As does sitting by and doing nothing. It may carry alot of weight, I accept that responsibility. As stated though, it is a suggestion, not some mind control power, and "groupthink". You make more of it than what it is, either that or you assign special powers to my suggestions.

quote:


As for a gorean community, like any community, people will be part of a community and be found wanting by some, not by others.  I have been to several Gorean gatherings where there were people I could not stand, but I participated because of the greater enjoyment of the event.  In the end, it always worked out fine.  We tend to gravitate to people we like and shy away from people we don't.  Walking away as an individual is fine.  Sitting down as a group ( a living community) and sharing wants and needs and ways to improve is fine.  Shunning someone in an on-line community is fruitless and just draws attention to the one shunned.


See this is where your confusion must be; I did not recommend any of this based upon like or dislike, but upon minimal acceptable behavior. Such as a slave calling a Free a shithead repeatedly. Why is shunning in an online community fruitless, because you say so? Are you not triggering groupthink against this idea? How is that better than the other?

quote:


I dont consider this a "community," I guess.  My Gorean community is with my off line friends and aquaintances and I am cool with that.  I am pretty indifferent to the antics of the whackos here. People can say things they would never say in person in this venue, and it is harder to discern the real person.


I guess this is the crux of some of this, if you are anyone does not consider this a community, then there is no reason to have community standards.

quote:


Did you ever see the TV show "The Paper Chase"? In it, the law student Hart was "shrouded" by his professor (Hart was schlepping the professors daughter but never mind that). Hart showed up the next day in a shroud and sat in class. He won the "shunning" battle because he was able to point out how futile and silly it was, and he was able to get more attention for himself. 




Nope, don't watch much TV as the marketing in commercials tend to have a subtle way of altering how a person thinks. I just did a quick search to make sure there are still plenty of articles out there, but it seems study of human an animal behavior does prove that ostracizing can be effective. Sorry but I am going to give my personal experience, and scientific research more weight than a fictional TV series.

Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 2:18:32 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings Master

In my opinion there is little need to shun pepole that make bad posts on this forum, this is a web community not a society that needs strict laws. Yes there comes a time when the person is such a big disturbance to the forum that many block him or her to be able to read other posts in peace, but the normal needs to have laws do not exist here so organized shunning is not needed.


I never said organized shunning, I actually said that Collarchat forbids blacklists and organized blocking of people.

quote:


Also organized shunning very often turn negative and gets misused. It is easy then to set up a shunning campaign then against pepole that do act well but have unpopular opinions. i think each individual have to judge for them self on the internet if a post or a poster is worth listening to or ignore.


I agree with this, and is why I never offered any organization to it. That nefarious McArthism like quality was put into my comment, by this thread.


Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 2:25:25 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Here is my original comment from the other thread

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

~FR~

I do not see much hope of a large Gorean community ever coming to a realization, as we cannot even maintain our own community standards here in our on line community. Some will ask, well how do you enforce things on line? You ostracize those that rebel against the community standards until those individuals decide they wish to be a part of the community. Collarme does not allow blacklist, or an organized effort to do something toward anyone, but just like we all do with trolls, if you just stop responding to them, the effect is the same.

Orion


Now compare that to the post below.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Good morning or good afternoon.
I am reading some posts "shun", "group ostracizing", "blacklisting", etc, and I am, frankly, horrified at the thought of what some of the ramifications of these actions entail.  Before you think I am after a "kinder, gentler Gor", let me assure you I am not.  However, shunning, blacklisting, and things of that ilk have been tried unsuccessfully in our Western Society (on a large scale, think McCarthyism and the blacklists of the 50's).  Amish shun their members when they don't toe the line exactly, and the shunning is often subjective. 

When we shun people, we close our minds to other ideas and we no longer allow that person to grow by learning from us.  I have seen among my friends deep and significant changes in their journey through this ethos.  Had I "shunned" them, my life would be much less rich.  The very prejudice we face as Goreans is often a shunning of sorts. 

I am fine with thinking to myself, "hey I don't really want to deal with that persons opinions today", or dismissing a person myself  after they have shown repeatedly they are not going to teach me anything new or just are interested in drama, but to have some group "shun"?  I don't think so.  I think it is the very thing we as Goreans have to wrestle with all the time. 

Ostracizing someone like a pack of hormone-loaded teenaged girls is not the answer.  I think individuals have the right, and the ability, to ignore someone, to delete or block or no longer participate with someone.  Those tools are here for us to use.  The fact is, we seldom truly use them.  If enough individuals really did what  they said they were going to do (ignore a person), in time, that person would go away.  The opposite of love is not hate or any sort of emotional attention, the opposite is indifference.  That is, to me, the best weapon of choice, mano a mano, not groupthink.

I wish you well
Y


_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 3:12:53 PM   
AnimusRex


Posts: 2104
Joined: 5/13/2006
Status: offline 		For the nearly decade that I have been in and out of the online chatrooms and message boards, I have seen my share of silliness, petty bickering and bratty flame wars, by both genders and all power orientations.
There have been repeated calls for some sort of Council, Board, or Committee to DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS OUTRAGE, and all came to a rather ignoble end, for the simple reason that there really is no established community standards within Gor.

My response has simply been to accept that life is never fair, so get over it and stop whining. This isn't meant to be a clever quip; Gor is nothing if not about being able to hold true to Ones beliefs even in the face of those who are in opposition. The bratty slaves who sulk and call names, the deranged trolls and cruisers will always be a part of life here, so all One can do is personally refuse to engage.
For what it is worth- In Gorean life, although there WERE rules and laws, the essential nature (in My opinion) is that each Man relies only on His own wits and abilities, instead of running to a court or police state for help in keeping order; Since the online world is so anarchic and chaotic, it resembles Gor in that respect.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 3:23:33 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16522
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		[Fast Reply]

For all the hair pulling, one reality stands out--we come here.

We do that in large measure because on balance things work reasonably well. If they didn't, or if somewhere else were better, we'd be there.

Lots of "pure" Gorean sites exist. They're often ghost towns.

But really PURE ghost towns...

Tim

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(in reply to AnimusRex)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 3:28:22 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Well put, Tim.

I'm pondering this one a bit over dinner.

As I read the OP, I didn't see a problem with it, quite on the contrary.
Thus, I have a quick question for Orion that might be useful in clarifying some things:
Was your first post in direct response to the topic, or somewhat tangential or ancillary?
Knowing which was the case would certainly make it easier for me to put my thoughts into a useful form.

Health,
al-Aswad.


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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 4:31:26 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		ORIGINAL: ygraine

Interesting that I made "more out of it than it is." I don't think so.  When words like shun, blacklisting, ostracizing are used (all of which you used btw) I think it is irresponsible not to step up to the plate. 

Hiya Ygraine,

I do understand why you're making the statements you do.  My question to you, though, is what exactly do you consider 'Stepping up to the plate' to entail from posters in a message group?  If a person consistantly steps outside of social expectations against strong suggestions to the contrary, without necessarily breaking the law, what is the recourse for society?

As for a suggestion, as one of the men of this community a suggestion carries a lot of weight.  A mere suggestion from a man has more to it than a passing idea. 

And when those suggestions, instructions, and even threats of ostracization are ignored, what further steps do you suppose can be taken?  Online, the only threat with any teeth is that of being blocked.

Regards,

Stephan 

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(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Shun the nonbelievers! - 12/30/2007 4:33:21 PM   
FrankAr


Posts: 602
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings YGraine,

I personally do not give a shit about what some people think on this board, and so thus I have them on ignore.  Now that is my perogative and I have never told another or had another go down the path of ignoring them either.  Everyone on this earth has their own opinion, just like the presidents and their blacklists, and by trying to force an issue with the person just does not make sense.  I mean then it is your will that they are bringing into their mind and not their own thoughts.  They can have the same line of thinking, maybe due to the same things that might have happened in their life, but they do not follow you because you are brain washing them.

When I do own a slave, then the first thing I would tell them is that they are never to read....the girly time posts....whether it is a group of slave females or FW, it is still the same, a bunch of cackling hens......LOL. 

Lately, to be honest, is that I see the Gorean board here going downhill a bit and the topics just either a nitpicking exercise or flaming.  People trying to impose their views upon matters and if others do not like it then others are wrong.  Things like that.  I just want to come onto the boards, read good Ops, or varied Ops, and then read the posts, obtaining knowledge about things that I wish to learn. 

It does become trivial by the Collarme rules that we can't have shit posters denied access to our area, when it is shown that they just want to come in and flame.  They come back with the shit of saying......I can post anywhere that I want, or that my Dom lets me say anything that I want....they can fuck off for all I care.  Then we should shun those and blacklist them here.  But within our community, I do not think it should happen, then it becomes a dictatorship and I personally do not think that Norman would go down that path in a Gor novel....he did a few times and then the Ubar was overthrown......

Just my thoughts.

Be well.

Frank Ar.


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Even the softest whisper can be heard in the loudest group....Frank H.

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 20
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