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Frigid Freewoman - 12/30/2007 8:05:44 PM

BoundDown

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Joined: 11/25/2007
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I have read 7 of the Counter Earth series and have been coming across a concept I see jokingly referenced here occasionally.

That Free woman are sexually frigid, it is implied that unless a woman is enslaved she can never be sexually liberated nor respond in a lustfull manner. Is this coldness an integral part of being a Free women or just used as an illustration by Norman to point out the freedoms that can accompany slavery.

Also, are all the books written from the perspective of an Earth man or woman who is intergrated into this alien world?

Will Tarl Cabot or Christopher Marshall ever really evolve into Gorean men, or am I doomed to see them bumbling through this perfect world holding on to the morality of their boomed planet?

Any perspective, or suggestions for furture reading would be greatly appreciated.

Post #: 1

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/30/2007 8:55:09 PM

OrionTheWolf

Posts: 7329
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Greetings BD,

Think more in metaphore and literary device, than literally. You also need to take into account the times it was written in, the feminist movement. Keep going on the series, many suprises abound.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to BoundDown)

Post #: 2

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/30/2007 11:40:52 PM

Cherylmazana

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John Norman liked to use extreme contrasts to illustrate certain aspects of the philosophy. Frigid free women V sexually open slave is one of them, the idea is to paradoxically show how the free can be enslaved by their circumstances while the slave legally bound and often physically held in place can be much freer than the convention bound free women.

He is trying to show how what is believed can be often different to reality. This is a very basic explanation though and it goes much deeper and is on more than one level but it gives you a starting point.

Cheryl

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 3

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 1:25:53 AM

Totalmaster4you

Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
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Tal BD,

As Orion has already suggested keep reading the books as Tarl becomes more integrated with Gorean culture and less linked with his earth origins. A FC can be quite wanton with her companion to whom in general she is submissive. I believe Norman was saying that to know the full sexual freedom she must be slave. But the idea that FW or FC are frigid is not close to being correct.

I wish you much enjoyment as you continue your reading,
TM4Y

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

Post #: 4

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 2:46:59 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
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From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings

You must remember when the books are written. In the midst of the worst craze of the women's liberation when one burned bras and went ballistic if a man offered to open the door for you. The Gor Saga is much a response to this craze and in a way the free women in the books are those rabid bra burners. So they are a part of the fiction but not the reality.

Added: Also in the books the free women had to be frigid to remain free, if they where sexually open that might be seen as begging the collar and they would soon get what they begged for. Most of free women in the books was not so frigid in the bed chamber whit their companion and they appeared.

i wish you well

< Message edited by nephandi -- 12/31/2007 2:49:40 AM >

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to BoundDown)

Post #: 5

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 5:03:53 AM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1711
Status: offline

Hello Folks,

Frigid Free Women. Boy isn't this a term we've heard over and over, from the books, from people.   And in the books almost every free woman Tarl encountered was sexually unaware and deeply resented slaves because of their sexual freedoms, and only when they were forced collared, did they see the "light".   And how happy and fullfilled they were now.    Yet in these same books, it's stated several places that free women outnumbered slaves by about 90%.   So how is it nearly EVERY story line that included a free woman, she was a sexually frustrated inhibited indvidual?   So does that mean 90% were miserable? I doubt it.   I've said this before, and I'll say it again, the story line with the hot slut sells better than the free woman doing what we do...tending hearth and home.

However, what I want to include in this, is emotions. I do believe a free woman has responsiblity to control her emotions more than a slave. Which may be percieved as cold and calculating.   I believe a free woman does indeed need to conduct herself in a certain manor, I believe there are a set of...dare I say...standards as a free woman.   Not only her manorisms, but also in her attire, in how she relates to men, to other women and to slaves.

If I were to meet a "free woman", at a Gorean Gathering, and she had on a short mini skirt, with a tube top, it would be difficult for me to view her as a free woman.   I believe Jahna has said, words to the effect of wearing what is appropriate at any given time.   I agree with her totally on this. I"m not saying at the right time it would be wrong for a free woman to dress as such, but at a Gorean Gathering, yes it would.

But even more important to me, is learning to control emotions.   I don't expect a free woman to go off the deep end, and make a public spectacle of herself.   Whether it's sexually or a temper trantrum.   There is a right way to express yourself, and a wrong way.   I have numerous times told women I know very well, vent to me, not in public.   Venting in public, whether it's on the boards, or in person just lowers themselves, and doesn't do anyone any good.

I also think there is a huge difference in the way free women interact with men. And no, I am not remotely suggesting free women are equal to men, nor are free women superior than men. We are just different, we are not the same.   I am not going to relate in a cutsy flirting way with men, I think it's cute when slaves do, I think it's slutty when free women do the exact same thing. Again I am speaking for myself, and myself only based on years of being around Gorean men.   There is a very fine line in challenging Gorean men, challenge them to think, but not challenge their manhood, if that makes any sense at all. I'm not the writer that some are, and perhaps someone else can make this more clear.

To me it all goes back to controlling emotions, and acting in a dignified manner.   As I have been told, and as I have told others, when in doubt take the high road. It's never wrong.

I wish you well,

Liz

(in reply to nephandi)

Post #: 6

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 7:07:21 AM

OrionTheWolf

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Greetings Elizabeth Anne,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

However, what I want to include in this, is emotions. I do believe a free woman has responsiblity to control her emotions more than a slave. Which may be percieved as cold and calculating. I believe a free woman does indeed need to conduct herself in a certain manor, I believe there are a set of...dare I say...standards as a free woman. Not only her manorisms, but also in her attire, in how she relates to men, to other women and to slaves.

If I were to meet a "free woman", at a Gorean Gathering, and she had on a short mini skirt, with a tube top, it would be difficult for me to view her as a free woman. I believe Jahna has said, words to the effect of wearing what is appropriate at any given time. I agree with her totally on this. I"m not saying at the right time it would be wrong for a free woman to dress as such, but at a Gorean Gathering, yes it would.

So is this something expected of Free Women by society? This is something that has never quite meshed in my thoughts. If part of the philosophy is to unlearn what society has taught us, and to act more in line with our nature, then isn't this one of the things that society is kind of pushing onto someone?

quote:

But even more important to me, is learning to control emotions. I don't expect a free woman to go off the deep end, and make a public spectacle of herself. Whether it's sexually or a temper trantrum. There is a right way to express yourself, and a wrong way. I have numerous times told women I know very well, vent to me, not in public. Venting in public, whether it's on the boards, or in person just lowers themselves, and doesn't do anyone any good.

I have never quite gotten this out of the series, except for controlling the lust part. The controlling the lust part seems also to be contrived, to avoid the collar. You say there is a right way and a wrong way to express yourself, but are not these ways again something that is an expectation of behavior created by society?

quote:

I also think there is a huge difference in the way free women interact with men. And no, I am not remotely suggesting free women are equal to men, nor are free women superior than men. We are just different, we are not the same. I am not going to relate in a cutsy flirting way with men, I think it's cute when slaves do, I think it's slutty when free women do the exact same thing. Again I am speaking for myself, and myself only based on years of being around Gorean men. There is a very fine line in challenging Gorean men, challenge them to think, but not challenge their manhood, if that makes any sense at all. I'm not the writer that some are, and perhaps someone else can make this more clear.

I believe all females are different than males, not just in comparison of Free. Why is flirty slutty if all it is, is just flirty? You say there is a fine line in challenging Men, but is this not a different way of stating that Free Women need to manipulate Gorean Men?

quote:

To me it all goes back to controlling emotions, and acting in a dignified manner. As I have been told, and as I have told others, when in doubt take the high road. It's never wrong.

I wish you well,

Liz

I believe that everyone needs to control their emotions. I see you use the word dignified again:

dig·ni·ty
play_w("D0221300")

(d

g

n

-t

)
n. pl. dig·ni·ties
1. The quality or state of being worthy of esteem or respect.2. Inherent nobility and worth: the dignity of honest labor.3.
a. Poise and self-respect.b. Stateliness and formality in manner and appearance.4. The respect and honor associated with an important position.5. A high office or rank.6. dignities The ceremonial symbols and observances attached to high office.7. Archaic A dignitary. From my experience, it seems that the perception of dignity is a very important thing to a Free Woman. Why is that? How important is this perception? I have not read an answer to these questions that did not use a slave as contrast, why is that? In the series, some females were Free then slave, some females were a slave and the Free. I do not recall dignity being a large part of that. The only difference I saw, in some, was that they were not as openly wanton. wan·ton
play_w("W0025900")

(w

n

t

n)
adj.
1. Immoral or unchaste; lewd.2.
a. Gratuitously cruel; merciless.b. Marked by unprovoked, gratuitous maliciousness; capricious and unjust: wanton destruction.3. Unrestrainedly excessive: wanton extravagance; wanton depletion of oil reserves.4. Luxuriant; overabundant: wanton tresses.5. Frolicsome; playful.6. Undisciplined; spoiled.7. Obsolete Rebellious; refractory. Another question I have always wondered is: Why does dignity and respect mean so much to a Free Woman, sometimes it means more to them than even love? Does perception and station mean so much? It seems that it all comes down to how they are perceived, as opposed to how they may really feel inside. This is one of the last areas for me to understand, in the many facets of a female. Then again this may be one of those gender areas that males were never meant to understand, just as the opposite is true. Live well,Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

Post #: 7

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 7:27:47 AM

xBullx

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How does your man relate to you? What does he expect of you? What does he see in you? What are you to him? What is your nature? Are both you and he being true to what nature deems?

Remember the scales and how they balance themselves. Beyond that a community and its members will determine what standards of conduct seem most acceptable. In Ar the free woman would be concealed and veiled, but the wagons people would see a woman dressed much differently.

Let us not confine our sense of what is right or wrong within the Gorean condition, it seems rather diverse and unlimited when you consider all things large and small.

Huh, so human are these Goreans.

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)

Post #: 8

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 8:04:56 AM

ygraine

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Joined: 10/10/2006
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Hello Bounddown,

The role of the free woman who practices the Gorean ethos on earth is pretty unglamourous. We are not the hot larma sluts that titilate the pages of the books. We are mothers, free companions, homemakers: people who run the machinery behind the man to keep his life smooth and easy. Frigidity has nothing to do with it really, we are just not expected to flaunt our sexuality. I do know some very sexy, very sensual free women, they just dont tend to display it.
In this case, I feel you have to keep the book construct and the way life really goes seperate. Suffice to say though, the main idea that comes from the books and is practiced here on earth is that Gorean women do know how to render submission. The choice of the Gorean free woman lies in her judgment about when to do that. The books do a great job of illustrating this in a fictional situation ( fiction or stories often being an excellent example of an idea or a philosophy) but the reality is so much more simple, and boring really.
I wish you well,
Y the boring

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to BoundDown)

Post #: 9

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 5:41:55 PM

SimonofTabor

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Joined: 9/7/2006
From: UK
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Hi BoundDown,

Within the Gor books John Norman sometimes makes extreme statements in order to make a point. In this case, although the Gor books do indeed frequently refer to free women (including those of earth) as frigid, I don't think that here on Earth all women not slave are frigid. The statement "to really enjoy sex to its fullest a woman must be a slave" does have an element of truth behind it though. While she doesn't actually have to live her life as a slave, she does, I think, have to completely submit, at least in those moments of intimacy.

Those who have read the Gor books will have read about what the books describe as slave orgasms. They talk of women writhing at the hands of men, as orgasm after orgasm floods through them. Sexual experiences of that intensity are not merely fantasy, extremes dreamt up by John Norman. They can be real. In those moments, though, the woman is absolutely, completely helpless. To reach such heights of pleasure she has to let go of all control, and submit. She can't get there on her own, but has to be taken there by someone who knows how to take her submission, and what buttons to push in her to bring her to that level of pleasure. Only by submitting herself completely, utterly, letting go of every ounce of control, will she achieve the levels of sexual pleasure that are described within the Gor books.

Are all free women frigid? Certainly not. Does a woman have to live her life as a slave in order to be sexually liberated and enjoy the levels of pleasure described within the Gor books? Nope. In those moments of intimacy, however, she has to submit, completely, totally. Never can a woman be more a slave than in those moments of intense sexual pleasure.

Finally, to answer another part of the original post, all 26 books currently available are written from the perspective of an Earth man or woman transported to Gor, as will be the 27th book (Prize of Gor) due to be published in 2008. If it reaches publication, the 28th book (name as yet unknown) will be the first to split from this pattern, and will instead be narrated by an unidentified Kur. Some details of both the as yet unpublished 27th and 28th books were given by John in a letter sent to us at the Chronicles of Gor site, and that letter is available in full at http://gorchronicles.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=35.

Simon

PS: It's Jason Marshall, not Christopher Marshall.

(in reply to ygraine)

Post #: 10

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 8:24:34 PM

xBullx

Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimonofTabor
Are all free women frigid? Certainly not.

Dammit all to hell; now how are we supposed to keep our beer cold?

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull

I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to SimonofTabor)

Post #: 11

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 8:30:47 PM

amelliagrace

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Joined: 8/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimonofTabor
Are all free women frigid? Certainly not.

Dammit all to hell; now how are we supposed to keep our beer cold?

A frigid slave?

A snicker and a giggle-
Grace, one of the Freely unfrozen

(in reply to xBullx)

Post #: 12

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 9:28:57 PM

dawntreader

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Greetings Grace,
is there such a thing as a frigid slave? LOL!!

< Message edited by dawntreader -- 12/31/2007 9:33:14 PM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 12/31/2007 10:23:14 PM

amelliagrace

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Joined: 8/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dawntreader

Greetings Grace,
is there such a thing as a frigid slave? LOL!!

Amazing though it may seem, I've met some...but that is another story, for another night, LOL.

Grace

(in reply to dawntreader)

Post #: 14

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 1/1/2008 12:05:39 AM

Najakcharmer

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Joined: 5/3/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimonofTabor
Are all free women frigid? Certainly not. Does a woman have to live her life as a slave in order to be sexually liberated and enjoy the levels of pleasure described within the Gor books? Nope. In those moments of intimacy, however, she has to submit, completely, totally.

Um...on what planet? Sexual pleasure is something experienced by people from all different cultures, beliefs and orientations. Heterosexual female submissives definitely do not have the monopoly on intense multiple orgasms. Heck, women don't even have that monopoly; there are men capable of multiple orgasms and Tantric orgasms. Not everyone is wired to experience either submission or dominance during intense sexual pleasure.

In John Norman's world, a woman can't have orgasms or experience sexual feelings unless she is a) heterosexual and b) a slave. There is a very clear binary choice between frigid free and sexual slave. It's not quite as simple as that in the real world.

(in reply to SimonofTabor)

Post #: 15

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 1/1/2008 1:36:20 AM

Totalmaster4you

Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
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Tal Elizabeth,

I, like Orion, am somewhat confused by the limiting description of what a free woman is or how she should behave. The descriptions you provided seem to me to be rooted in feminism and societal pressure to keep behavior and even dress within certain boundaries. It was my understanding of being Gorean to throw off preconceived ideas for individual decisions, to discard societal pressure for the freedom to follow ones own beliefs. If a free woman went to a Gorean gathering and she was single and unattached why shouldn't she wear a miniskirt or dress that hugs her ankles as long as she felt good about her appearance and didn't violate some predetermined dress code(if there was a dress code). And having a dress code would be unlikely for a Gorean Gathering where so many insist on being able to chose for themselves. Isn't being Gorean about following ones own codes and beliefs and receiving respect from others as long as we don't infringe on their rights? Since when are we the Amish prescribing how and what clothes will be worn by our women who are free. As was pointed out elsewhere the dress codes between Ar and the wagon people or the North landers and the red savages. They are all Gorean and being Gorean here on earth creates more freedoms to choose from. And In my opinion we should not judge what someone wears and be more interested in what and how we think. In truth one persons view of what's slutty or flirty isn't necessarily the same as someone elses. To me that smacks of the cliques in high school and doesn't help us grow with more substantive questions.

I wish y'all well,
TM4Y

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)

Post #: 16

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 1/1/2008 3:56:52 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 16522
Joined: 3/14/2005
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Tal,

Right from the earliest books Free Women are described as sexual--from their behavior at the fairs, for example. And their status isn't much better than slaves. Their required pilgrimmage to the Sardar region as described in PK could easily result in their capture and slavery. Even a Free Companion, we learn, can be chained to a couch ring or disciplined by a naked night on a cold stone floor chained to a ring at the foot of the bed.

Doesn't sound like frigid to me--but it doesn't souind like the epitome of dignity either. However, Pleasure Slaves are described as "females of the human kind" bred for this purpose--animals, specifically not genetically Gorean women, implying at least that the earthly female is more suited to that endeavor.

But then again, this IS Earth...

Best,

Tim

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/1/2008 4:24:32 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to Totalmaster4you)

Post #: 17

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 1/1/2008 4:01:13 AM

Musicmystery

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---Ooops----

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/1/2008 4:05:23 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 18

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 1/1/2008 4:06:39 AM

SimonofTabor

Posts: 123
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Najakcharmer

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimonofTabor
Are all free women frigid? Certainly not. Does a woman have to live her life as a slave in order to be sexually liberated and enjoy the levels of pleasure described within the Gor books? Nope. In those moments of intimacy, however, she has to submit, completely, totally.

Um...on what planet? Sexual pleasure is something experienced by people from all different cultures, beliefs and orientations. Heterosexual female submissives definitely do not have the monopoly on intense multiple orgasms. Heck, women don't even have that monopoly; there are men capable of multiple orgasms and Tantric orgasms. Not everyone is wired to experience either submission or dominance during intense sexual pleasure.

In John Norman's world, a woman can't have orgasms or experience sexual feelings unless she is a) heterosexual and b) a slave. There is a very clear binary choice between frigid free and sexual slave. It's not quite as simple as that in the real world.

Najakcharmer, I don't think you've understood what I was saying. It's very definitely not as simple as that in the real world, and I thought I had made that clear. What I was saying is that to experience the kind of intense sexual experience described as "slave orgasms", which the Gor books hold up as the ultimate female sexual experience, submission is needed in those moments. The reason is simple. During such intense sexual experiences a woman is helpless, completely. Believe me - she is. If she holds on to any control, then she'll only experience a small degree of what she is capable of experiencing. The rest of the time she might be dominant, submissive, or completely vanilla, but I stand by the statement that in those moments of sexual intensity she has to submit in order to experience the full depths that is available. I will qualify my earlier statements a little though. Although she does need assistance from someone else to achieve that level of sexual pleasure, it doesn't necessarily have to be a man, but somebody, male or female, who knows how to take her to those levels.

At the point of orgasm there is sometimes a degree of loss of control for men too, but it's generally rather brief and men regain control much, much quicker than women do.

(in reply to Najakcharmer)

Post #: 19

RE: Frigid Freewoman - 1/1/2008 4:24:26 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline

Greetings

quote:

is there such a thing as a frigid slave? LOL!!

Yeah there is. Here is one. Well off course it depend on what you mean by frigid. I am relatively open about sexuality, but I do not have much sexual desire.

i wish you well

< Message edited by nephandi -- 1/1/2008 4:36:21 AM >

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

(in reply to dawntreader)

Post #: 20

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