I'm completely devoted, but...

I'm completely devoted, but... (Full Version)

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RoughFN -> I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:27:57 PM)
I was reading the other thread in here about voting and was a little surprised at the responses. I opted to start anew instead of hijacking that thread. But basically, the question was if your master would force you to vote a particular way and the responses have so far seemed fairly universal of "NO, and I'd be pissed if he tried!" It just struck me as such a contrast to the people who regularly post and claim that everything about themselves is their master's and their master's alone to command. Most people (everywhere on the 'net, for all times) tend to come back to something along the lines of, "we're a fairly normal couple, it's just that he makes all the decisions he wants to make." So voting struck me as just another thing in that "decisions he wants to make" category." Personally, I would have no problem ordering my girl to vote a particular way, and I assume that she'd do it with minimal question. Incidentally, it is something I've considered doing but it's not high on my list of things to do, and I probably won't bother. Extrapolating, how many of the slaves here would get really pissed off if their master ordered them to do something outside of a bdsm context like this? And, likewise, how much of a contradiction is this compared to him making all of the decisions? Dwelling on this example, I'm not claiming that you can't have your own opinions, or even potentially argue with him to prove him wrong (or at least that you should be able to vote your own way); those extras are points for your own relationship. The end of the day though, if he makes the decision, exerting the claim that you've granted him all power in your life, why would you protest? The argument could be made that you hadn't considered this because it was clearly outside the realm of BDSM so you didn't think it would be an issue. The counter argument is that you should have, you've already granted yourself over, and now you should be prepared to live with that decision. So what would happen if something similar comes up? It's a non-sexual order, it's not something you'd ever considered he'd exert control over, he feels he's well within his rights to tell you to do it, and there's no harm to you in doing it (again, with the voting example we're glossing over the concept of voting in the "wrong" guy who would enact policy unfavorable to you). Does that turn into a discussion about limits? Do you acquiesce and do as you're told? Do you get livid and leave him? What if you do have those discussions and he absolutely refuses to back down? Then what? I always find it interesting where people draw lines and what they do when they're crossed.

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:37:40 PM)
just because i'm submissive doesn't that includes my right to choose the candidate i preceived to be best man/woman for the job belongs to Daddy/SO. i believe my right to vote whomever i choose is a personal freedom that doesn't have any bearings with my D/s relationships.

Shawn1066 -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:39:22 PM)
If my Owner ----really---- wanted me to vote for somebody I didn't agree with, then we would have a discussion. If, at the end of that discussion, she was still firm in her wishes... Then, you know what... I'd do it. Now, there are some things that she could try to push that I'd be pretty unmovable on. Of course, she knows what those are and respects them. Just like she respects my politics.

camille65 -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:43:05 PM)
What I said in the other thread could have been elaborated on a bit more perhaps. If he wanted me to look at something in a different way, ie his political view instead of mine then he would tell me to research it.Upon researching it I would either change my mind on my own, or stay with what I had already believed. It isn't a matter of not being submissive, it is quite literally a matter of having a dom who wouldn't tell me to vote in a particular direction. He simply wouldn't. He would only tell me to research topic A and come to my own conclusions. I know, cuz we have covered this ground lol.

hisannabelle -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:44:28 PM)
greetings roughfn, he regularly orders me to do things that don't fit into a "bdsm context." i'm not just property when he's flogging me. i'm property all the time. if he ordered me to vote for a particular candidate, i would. i doubt he would (i'm a socialist, although not particularly political, and he's a very political republican, and we're okay with that arrangement), but y'know, i thought he liked my hair and then the other day he told me he wanted me to get a perm. i don't do chemical things to my hair (or heat things, like straightening). period. end of story. but i'm going next week to get a perm, which is about the worst thing you can do to hair (i'm enjoying my pretty, shiny, healthy, silky hair for now, because i'm scared). if it makes him happy, though, i will be happy. i don't like to wear makeup and never did before we got together, but he prefers for me to wear makeup around him, so i do, even though in general i wouldn't because i think it's pointless and bad for your skin. i have my own opinions, his just supercede them. he likes hearing mine. a lot of the time mine are what end up happening because he is happy with them or doesn't have strong feelings either way. when he wants something that i wouldn't necessarily choose, though, that doesn't mean that all of a sudden i'm not his slave anymore. what would be the point? respectfully, annabelle.

RoughFN -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:48:24 PM)
quote: i believe my right to vote whomever i choose is a personal freedom that doesn't have any bearings with my D/s relationships. "personal freedom" strikes me as the wrong word. There are plenty of personal freedoms that people give up in D/s relationships, many of which are even more fundamental than the right to vote. Choice of clothing, choice of food, choice of sleeping arrangements, choice of housing, choice of what to watch on TV, all sorts of things. So if you're giving up all of these personal freedoms, what makes this one any different? What makes any other outside-the-bedroom order any different?

undergroundsea -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:49:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughFN The argument could be made that you hadn't considered this because it was clearly outside the realm of BDSM so you didn't think it would be an issue. The counter argument is that you should have, you've already granted yourself over, and now you should be prepared to live with that decision. I think relationships are organic and negotiations evolve as the relationship evolves. Things that were limits may become commonplace and things that were fair game may become limits. I think it is entirely fair for a sub to bring up a limit that was not previously considered. I think the responsibility to cover potential boundaries is a shared one and I don't think the counterargument that the sub should have thought of it before is a fair one. Consent does not rely on initial negotiation as much as on the present. quote: I always find it interesting where people draw lines and what they do when they're crossed. I think it's helpful to understand why a particular limit is a limit because it will reveal a fundamental boundary. It is these fundamental boundaries that define the lines people draw. Cheers, Sea

goodgirl08 -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:50:36 PM)
I think it's an unnecessarily combative thing to ask someone to do. I would do it, but might be concerned that he was trying to squash my personality.

BitaTruble -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:51:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughFN Dwelling on this example, I'm not claiming that you can't have your own opinions, or even potentially argue with him to prove him wrong (or at least that you should be able to vote your own way); those extras are points for your own relationship. The end of the day though, if he makes the decision, exerting the claim that you've granted him all power in your life, why would you protest? I wouldn't protest. I don't pick and choose which commands I'll obey. I think the odds of him ever commanding me in such a way are slim to none, though. Celeste

AquaticSub -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:53:17 PM)
There are certain things, most, if not all, because of moral/ethical reasons, that I will never do. Some are contextual, others are not. It doesn't matter how loudly he shouts, if he cracks the whip, screams, pulls my hair, or slaps my face. I will never do them. I call them limits and we acknowledge that they exist. He is happy that they exist because he wouldn't want to own the sort of person who would do those things so, even though he will never order me to do them, he has no problem with the fact that I never would. To me, it's the difference between our slavery and the slavery of those who didn't get to consent, those who truly have no rights. Is my vote one of those things? No, I might do it if he cared enough to give me a beating about it. But I wouldn't want to be with someone who wanted to control that. I'm his girl but I'm still me, with my own social concious and my own political leanings. I believe I can stay me and be his. He thinks so too, which is why he doesn't control those things.

sambamanslilgirl -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:55:03 PM)
then you really don't know and/or understand the type of relationships i have with my 2 Doms. i didn't have to give up anything (such as clothes, welfare of my UMs, food choice, what to watch on tv, etc) except my submission to them. i still get to be me and have my personal freedom to vote whomever i choose to vote. my Doms have, in no way, any influence when it comes to politics. i still retain my personal freedom.

RoughFN -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 2:56:25 PM)
heh. and when I come back to this thread to look at the replies, I have Meatloaf's "I will do anything for love...but I won't do that" start up in my head. [:)]

AquaticSub -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 3:00:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughFN heh. and when I come back to this thread to look at the replies, I have Meatloaf's "I will do anything for love...but I won't do that" start up in my head. [:)] chuckles I view saying "I will do anything for love" or variations on the theme as being simply poetic terms like "slave heart". They mean something but I'd honestly be scared of anyone who would do anything for me. Sure sounds nice though and those poetic terms most certainly have their valued place.

RoughFN -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 3:02:22 PM)
quote: then you really don't know and/or understand the type of relationships i have with my 2 Doms. i didn't have to give up anything (such as clothes, welfare of my UMs, food choice, what to watch on tv, etc) except my submission to them. i still get to be me and have my personal freedom to vote whomever i choose to vote. my Doms have, in no way, any influence when it comes to politics. i still retain my personal freedom. Of course I don't know your relationship. I don't think we've ever talked before... So, in your case, what does giving them your submission mean? Do they have the option of deciding your clothes, food, what to watch on TV, etc? Whether they do it or not is beside the point, it's whether they could if they wanted to. And if they don't have that authority, then what exactly are you submitting? Note - if I'm coming across as critical, that's not my intent. I'm not arguing about one degree of submission vs another or the validity thereof, just wondering about where the lines are. A thought that just popped into my head is that I'm viewing things from the perspective of (as a dom) "if it wasn't explicitly excluded from negotiations, then it's implicitly mine to decide." It's equally valid to view it as "If it wasn't explicitly included in negotiations, then it's implicitly still hers to decide." Again, I wonder which way people tend to skew in that regard. As with all things, I'm sure it'll be that some things fall one way and some things fall the other, but the vague generalities are just boring.

joshuadforbes -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 3:03:03 PM)
ok people check it out I'm posting this as a dominant Myself...first becoming someones slave does not inter that You make all of their personal and moral choices for them and yes politics can very often be just as much moral related as it is personal Myself ive refused to vote for bush on both elections simply because i do not believe he has strong ethics or morals however if I had a little one who did like bush and wished to vote in his favor then i think it would be wrong of Me as her Master to try and tell her no she cant vote for him by the by....consider this one of the most fundamental rules in bdsm is that the slave has the right to choose who leads her...is voting any different another by the by...no I dont care that I didnt use proper punctuation you dont like it you can always re-write it yourself

camille65 -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 3:05:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughFN quote: i believe my right to vote whomever i choose is a personal freedom that doesn't have any bearings with my D/s relationships. "personal freedom" strikes me as the wrong word. There are plenty of personal freedoms that people give up in D/s relationships, many of which are even more fundamental than the right to vote. Choice of clothing, choice of food, choice of sleeping arrangements, choice of housing, choice of what to watch on TV, all sorts of things. So if you're giving up all of these personal freedoms, what makes this one any different? What makes any other outside-the-bedroom order any different? I'm, and you are confused. You are attributing a quote to me that I did not make and you are replying to me as the author of words that I did not write.

Mercnbeth -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 3:06:44 PM)
quote: exerting the claim that you've granted him all power in your life many profess it, few literally mean it.

hisannabelle -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 3:07:49 PM)
greetings all, if slavery isn't about the dominant being the one with the power to make decisions, then what exactly is it about? i don't completely agree with roughfn's posts, but i think he has a point when he says, "what are we submitting?" i don't understand what the point of submission is if we're not submitting to control other than our own. i can have a vanilla relationship and retain control over my decisions. also, goodgirl, i'm not picking on you here - i've seen this in other posts and it always trips me up, so i'm just asking. what is the deal with worrying that one's dominant is going to squash one's personality? my personality is not easily squashable, and on top of that, why would i be with him if i had to worry about that or take control over things because giving up control might mean i lose my personality? why be a slave? respectfully, annabelle.

BitaTruble -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 3:11:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joshuadforbes by the by....consider this one of the most fundamental rules in bdsm is that the slave has the right to choose who leads her...is voting any different It's absolutely different for me. I already voted for Himself. He's the man in office, the head honcho, the decision maker. If he wants someone specific to lead this country, which in turn may effect me, I have no problems at all with obeying his decision to cast a ballot for a particular person. I trust him with my life, my body, my mind, my heart ... but I'm not supposed to trust him with my vote? You said that if you find a candidate unethical or without morals, you would not vote for them.. yet you would let your submissive or slave vote for them? I'm curious as to why you would allow that to happen? No offense, I'm just nosy because I don't understand that thinking. Celeste

AquaticSub -> RE: I'm completely devoted, but... (1/8/2008 3:13:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RoughFN It's equally valid to view it as "If it wasn't explicitly included in negotiations, then it's implicitly still hers to decide." Again, I wonder which way people tend to skew in that regard. As with all things, I'm sure it'll be that some things fall one way and some things fall the other, but the vague generalities are just boring. Because I think it's utterly impossible to think of every single damn thing while negotiating, I tend to follow that line of thinking. Also because I think the former is easier to abuse by the dominant hiding issues that he knows about but hopes the submissive/slave won't think of. What's closer to my own view is "If it wasn't included in negotiations, than it's still up for negotiation by both parties".

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