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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 3:12:34 AM

mystique2003

Posts: 30
Joined: 8/27/2006
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quote:

Like Maahsatti I do not introduce myself as Mistress as that seems too much BDSM and Dominatrix but I expect a slave to cotton on pretty quick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cherylmazana

I don't often post on any of the forums in Collar me . I would much rather read the opinions that matter to me and that I can learn from. But the above quote kind of ruffled my feathers a bit shall we say. And yes I have seen off hand insults towards Goreans in this manner too, in the other forums. There seems to be a overabundance of " My way it the only way and those on the "other side" are just players."
Is this, in all the forums, just a lack of understanding, or wanting to understand? Or just narrowmindedness?
Thank you
Mystique

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Post #: 61

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 4:26:37 AM

ElizabethAnne

Posts: 1535
Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: online

Hello Mystique,

I think like many things it's a miscommunication between "the other side" and us.   Babs (Maahsatti) touched on it briefly, and Cheryl's post was in the Gorean sense dead on.   For slaves that are owned by Gorean men, and those that wish to be owned by Gorean men there is only one way to address free women, and that is the title of "Mistress". I also believe Jahna mentioned this, as well as Terrah, Ygraine and myself.   Mistress used as a Gorean slave uses the term, is simply a title, a show of respect.   Gorean slaves to refer to ALL men as Masters.  Neither means ownership.

I have many dear BDSM friends, and BDSM slaves usually call me Ma'am, or Ms Liz, I have no problem with that, to me it is still showing respect.   For some of the girls it is an affectionate nickname for me. I am always flattered. And for me to tell a man's slave how she is supposed to address me, I feel would not be giving her owner respect.   Sort of like, when in Rome, I believe the essence is the show of respect.

Unlike some of my esteemed (ha ha) colleagues, I believe I have passed into that right of being called "Ma'am" whether it's the bag boy at the supermarket, or a BDSM slave. Hey I'm old, what can I say?   And I like manners. In the vanilla world, it's a show of manners and respect, why would not the same be true in our world, or in the BDSM arena.

I wish you well,

Elizabeth

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Post #: 62

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 4:57:58 AM

Karynn

Posts: 773
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Tal ya'll,

Something I've been thinking as I read through this most recent discussion related to use of words and titles, also called honorifics in BSDM, is the concept of intent vs. content. I'll explain.

Content tends to be what is vocalized or typed. Sometimes, content becomes so much a part of what is expected that it is robotically programmed, and the response you get is on auto-pilot. A good example is the military training for how the enlisted service personnel are taught to address officers. There is a MUST respect required of the enlisted. No choices. Yes, Sir must be said. Yes, M'am must be said. It doesn't matter at all the personal attitude of the person saying the words. I've been in the military (USN) and I've saluted and "Yes Sir'd" the proper way, even in cases where I abhorred the person.

Intent tends to be what is felt and demonstrated in action. You've all heard the phrase, "Put your money where your mouth is." Well this applies with any sort of expectational content. It's one thing to say, "Yes, Mistress." or "Yes, M'am." and quite another thing altogether to feel the surrender or respect of a person of submitted status. If someone says the right words, and yet demonstrates poor attitude, demonstrates brattiness, behaves like an idiot, then the words to me are drowned in a sea of stupidity. Why bother? On the other hand, I've met a few from both the Gorean lifestyle and from the BDSM mainstream lifestyle who were taught that unless in a very formal setting, honorifics were not necessary, yet every action and attitude literally seemed to ooze with a slavelike or submissive heart.

I know people. I've been a part of the lifestyle for years. I understand that some are taught one way. Others are taught differently. One constant I've found, however, is that those who are true to either Gorean or BDSM lifestyle, really understanding the dynamics of those who are free and those who are not, exemplify proper behavior and attitude, regardless of the content of words expected. And at the end of the day, I could care less about lips service if the heart doesn't match.

K

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Post #: 63

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 7:27:43 AM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Karynn
Sometimes, content becomes so much a part of what is expected that it is robotically programmed, and the response you get is on auto-pilot.

So very true.

quote:

Intent tends to be what is felt and demonstrated in action. You've all heard the phrase, "Put your money where your mouth is." Well this applies with any sort of expectational content. It's one thing to say, "Yes, Mistress." or "Yes, M'am." and quite another thing altogether to feel the surrender or respect of a person of submitted status.

Absolutely.

quote:

If someone says the right words, and yet demonstrates poor attitude, demonstrates brattiness, behaves like an idiot, then the words to me are drowned in a sea of stupidity. Why bother? On the other hand, I've met a few from both the Gorean lifestyle and from the BDSM mainstream lifestyle who were taught that unless in a very formal setting, honorifics were not necessary, yet every action and attitude literally seemed to ooze with a slavelike or submissive heart.

This is at the heart of this debate, for me at least. Customs and protocols are completely worthless if attitiude and intent are not as they should be. Attitde and intent frequently speak loudly enough to drown out the verbage, in both positive and negative situations.

quote:

I know people. I've been a part of the lifestyle for years. I understand that some are taught one way. Others are taught differently. One constant I've found, however, is that those who are true to either Gorean or BDSM lifestyle, really understanding the dynamics of those who are free and those who are not, exemplify proper behavior and attitude, regardless of the content of words expected. And at the end of the day, I could care less about lips service if the heart doesn't match.

I couldn't have said that better - and obviously haven't.

Someting I'd like everyone to think about:
The "that's BDSM", "that's not Gorean", statements seem to indicate that one key thing is being missed here.

No, I'm not bringing this up to be cantankerous. I am quite serious about it being indicative of an issue worthy of commentary. Some things have absolutely nothing to do with BDSM. They are far more cultural in nature, and by "culutural", I'm looking at the larger context, and not at a subculture. The term "Mistress" is not a Gorean word. It was used well before living Goreans stepped onto the world stage. It isn't a BDSM word either, though it is frequently used by, and often vehemently insisted upon, by BDSM folks. It is, quite simply, just a word. A word with synonyms. A word with different nuance, depending upon what part of the world you grew up in.

My father, who was as Gorean as any Gorean man around here(in spite of never using the word "Gorean"), called his mother, and any other woman he respected, "Ma'am" or "Lady", and sometimes, "Woman" (well, not his mom on that one, but other women) till the day he died. He had other choice words for women who failed to garner his admiration, lol.

Mistress, Ma'am, Lady, Master, Sir, Mister, Chief, Boss....they are all simply words. Words are devoid of useful power without utilization and context. They are are never sufficint, in and of themselves, for communication. Why? Because the attitude, intention, and inflection of the speaker are part of what gives them impetus, feeling, meaning. The filters of the listener are equally critical. It is those filters we've spent a good bit of time discussing here. I've enjoyed reading about they how's and why's of other's preferences. It is almost always beneficial and worth the time to look at something from another's paradigm.

Liz-
Your most recent post here contained much truth. But I just have to say that I could have gone all day without another reminder that I'm soon to qualify as an old woman. As my youngest would say, "Oh, that is just so WRONG." lol.

Regards-
Grace

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Post #: 64

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 7:34:07 AM

amelliagrace

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FR-
To those of you who are in the US:

Are you making any substantial headway with determining who to vote for in the presidential election?

Disgusted with my options-
Grace

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Post #: 65

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 7:35:03 AM

ElizabethAnne

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Hey Grace...

It is what it is!

Take care,

Liz

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Post #: 66

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 7:37:26 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

FR-
To those of you who are in the US:

Are you making any substantial headway with determining who to vote for in the presidential election?

Disgusted with my options-
Grace

Yes, but I have an advantage, since I don't even own a television anymore.

Therefore, I have to rely on their actual positions and records instead of the daily bullshit manipulated for the masses.

Tim

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Post #: 67

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 7:55:38 AM

amelliagrace

Posts: 1791
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

FR-
To those of you who are in the US:

Are you making any substantial headway with determining who to vote for in the presidential election?

Disgusted with my options-
Grace

Yes, but I have an advantage, since I don't even own a television anymore.

Therefore, I have to rely on their actual positions and records instead of the daily bullshit manipulated for the masses.

Tim

You are not the only one who actively avoids the "daily bullshit manipulated for the masses". Once you begin to look to other sources and avoid the pablum of manipulation, one thing emerges clearly - or it did so for me - and that is that the candidates actual words, deeds, views, and records tend to say substantially different things that the sound bytes, speeches, and spin from the talking heads of Criminally Newsless Network and Faux News.

I'm working on coming up with at least three choices, as it isn't likely my prefered candidates will emerge victorious from that beauty pagent refered to as The Primaries.

Regards-
Grace

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Post #: 68

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 2:32:24 PM

Karynn

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Grace,

I have a really funny home school project produced by one who lives here. I will offer it via email to anyone who'd like to see it. The assignment was to demonstrate a knowledge of candidates running for office and choose the one you find most interesting to debate, then show the debate as a "one act play." Needless to say, he's quite hysterical, but the debate is far better than anything you'd see should you turn on one of the debates on a regular network!

K

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Post #: 69

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 2:32:27 PM

Cherylmazana

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Joined: 10/4/2007
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quote:

I don't often post on any of the forums in Collar me . I would much rather read the opinions that matter to me and that I can learn from. But the above quote kind of ruffled my feathers a bit shall we say. And yes I have seen off hand insults towards Goreans in this manner too, in the other forums. There seems to be a overabundance of " My way it the only way and those on the "other side" are just players."
Is this, in all the forums, just a lack of understanding, or wanting to understand? Or just narrowmindedness?
Thank you
Mystique

I am not sure why you would take it as an insult. I do not go around addressing myself as Mistress Cheryl as that seems to me to be the BDSM way of looking at things, as the only time I have ever heard a woman address herself that way was at a BDSM party I have yet to hear anyone other than a dominatrix address herself as such. Maybe you know others who introduce themselves that way though?

I introduce myself as Cheryl, I expect Gorean slaves to address me as Mistress Cheryl, the rest can call me what they like and some do.

It seemed to me you were looking for an excuse to start an argument and I would have to ask why, this is a thread for Gorean free women to discuss various bits and pieces without bothering anyone else, and how we are addressed is certainly pertinent to Gorean women even if not to the rest of the readers.

Cheryl

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Post #: 70

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 4:02:27 PM

mystique2003

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Cheryl, I understand completely that you would expect a slave to call you Mistress Cheryl. This it the Gorean way and you follow those philosophies.. I respect how the people in this forum chose to live and I admire their honesty.
What bothers me, and I have said that I see this on the other forums too, is the offhand insults or veiled insults to others who do not chose the same path .You may not of meant it as a insult to BDSM but the statement below could of been seen as one of those veiled insults. And I have often heard someone on the other boards say something like " Don't let the Goreans hear you say this or that". To me that is a veiled insult to Goreans. A way of running down how they chose to live. This is what I was pointing out in my other post. Gorean, BDSM, M/s , D/s, D/s are all legitimate ways to chose to live. With their own philosophies, rules, rituals or what have you. None are better than the others. Just different.
So ,no, I was not looking for a argument. I was stating what I have seen often in all the forums. And asking why this might happen
"Is this, in all the forums, just a lack of understanding, or wanting to understand? Or just narrowmindedness? "
I hope this clears up any misunderstanding.
Thank you
Mystique

"Like Maahsatti I do not introduce myself as Mistress as that seems too much BDSM and Dominatrix but I expect a slave to cotton on pretty quick."

(in reply to Cherylmazana)

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Post #: 71

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 6:49:05 PM

Kimveri

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Evening, folks,

Good question, Liz,

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne
When do you, if you do, call yourself Mistress, and when do you, if you do, expect to be called that by slaves/subs? And do you correct them if they don't?

I have few expectations of others' property, so I rarely feel an urge to "correct" anyone's property. I also think of the titles as 'slave tools', used to display a clear understanding of her place in relation to the free. Thus, I find no reason to use such in reference to myself.

I've always looked at the titles as sort of the icing: if the right attitude & demeanor is there, the title is merely one more indication that the slave knows their place. If the lack of a title is intended to be displeasing, then I'll bet there's a whole lot more in the slave's attitude & demeanor that will convey the same.

IOW, it's like worrying about waterproof mascara in a Cat 5 hurricane...if it's an issue, it's likely the least of the issues needing handled! ;-D

That said, as long as the men who own the slaves are happy, it's all good to me. If the title I get is not what I like...well...she ain't MY slave so I don't have to deal with her.

I wish you all well,

~Kimveri

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Post #: 72

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 7:09:45 PM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kimveri

IOW, it's like worrying about waterproof mascara in a Cat 5 hurricane...if it's an issue, it's likely the least of the issues needing handled! ;-D

That said, as long as the men who own the slaves are happy, it's all good to me. If the title I get is not what I like...well...she ain't MY slave so I don't have to deal with her.

Hi, Kimiveri -

You put that far better than I could have. Can I use that line about the mascarra and the hurricane sometime?

Regards-
Grace

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Post #: 73

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/22/2008 9:57:21 PM

Kimveri

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Anytime, Grace...lol

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Post #: 74

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/23/2008 1:10:55 AM

Cherylmazana

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Ahh Mystique now I understand you.

I think people are designed to have “us and them” its built into us on a fairly basic level.

And along with this attitude comes the need to make yourself better than “them” so you see the casual insults and put downs. So we will always have prejudices, racism and bias even if not openly spoken because it is no longer politically correct.

So homosexuals will be perverts and queer, age players will be disgusting and not normal, Gorean’s dangerous people who are overly harsh, coloured people will be words I cannot use here, shop cleaners will be too thick to get a decent job, blondes bimbos. (All of these are things I have heard others say, I do not agree with them.)

I could go on and fill the whole page with clichés that emphasis just how bad someone else is compared to “us”. Or how much better we are to them.

Its one of the nastier parts of the human psyche.

Cheryl

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Post #: 75

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/23/2008 3:15:35 AM

Terrah

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Tal Everyone,

Ok, latest update on my mare.. Oh it's very good news too!! The vet said give her a couple more days there, he's weaning her off the shots now, she's only getting them once every other day now, and he checked the foal, and it's alive and kicking up a storm.. YEAHHHH.. plus even though the mare is breathing slowly, she is taking in deep long breaths which is considered to be excellent considering she nearly died 10 days ago. She is eating very well over the last couple days, she's eating all her grain and most of the alfalfa. She doesn't have horsey poop yet, but she is much more improved another great sign.

Since it is very cold here, (gotta remember deep south it's cold at 40 but right now it's 27..) so for the sake of not moving her and upsetting her, she's gonna stay there until the warmer weather starts again in a couple days, she has a nice warm barn to stay in that's heated, ours is not. Anyhow, he thinks she will live and give birth to a healthy foal. Her tummy is making noises again which is always good. After all the fever,colic, infection, being septic, and ulcers she is gaining on her conditon, he said she is very strong spirited and wants to live, and that it was a good thing she was so fat too.

She's got a way to go, but with good food and being around her other sisters along with some medicine she should make a full recovery. I can't tell you how grateful I am.. And thank you all again for the good wishes, prayers or just good thoughts for her, you see they worked...

I wish you well,

Terrah

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Post #: 76

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/23/2008 3:19:25 AM

ElizabethAnne

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Hey Terrah,

Thanks for the update! And you bet it's good news, Mom and baby doing fine! Warm barn, good food, lots of tender loving care? Plus all of us rooting for her? Heck she had to get well!

Take care,

Liz

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Post #: 77

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/23/2008 6:09:15 AM

AlwaysLisa

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quote:

Are you making any substantial headway with determining who to vote for in the presidential election?

Disgusted with my options-

Process of elimination, I know who I "won't" be voting for, so lets just see who is left to challenge her.

Lisa

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I Dunno.

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Post #: 78

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/23/2008 6:42:26 AM

Sylverdawn

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I mean if you want to talk politics.. which my mother always said should be avoided in pleasant company...And, so far its been very pleasant company. Her will be on the ticket for the Dems.. like it or not.. unless she declines..which I dont see happening.. Looking at the right.. you have McCain who at 71 people percieve as too old for the job.. though I like and really respect him. I think the propaganda about his military service is just crap, he someone who has served his country with honor and continues to do so. Romney... a person whose religion really makes me suspect.Im sorry I dont want somone that right in office. oooooooooophs there's are another no no topic religion.. President Huckabee, god no please sounds like a bad black and white made in the 40's about some farmer who lands in the oval office by happenstance.. Back to the left I think Obhama needs more seasoning. I really respect Edwards commitment to his family and his political life.. but Im afraid he is a victim of timing... like he said its hard to be heard over the din of the other Democratic candidates.

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 1/23/2008 6:56:47 AM >

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/23/2008 6:51:54 AM

ElizabethAnne

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Howdy Ladies,

Great subject, and right now heading out the door, so when I get back today and have time to breath, I'll respond. And yes, SD, I agree, VERY pleasant company!

Take care,

Liz

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Post #: 80