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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/24/2008 10:19:35 PM

Vendaval

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

Tim had mentioned, only a few here call themselves Mistress.

When do you, if you do, call yourself Mistress, and when do you, if you do, expect to be called that by slaves/subs?

I expect the title to be used in formal situations and during certain intimate situations. In general, I am more formal during initial introductions and more relaxed after getting to know someone better.

And do you correct them if they don't?

I correct my own slaves if they are not pleasing or polite enough for the situation.

Some persons use Miss/Ms as a term of affection. This seems to be more common with people
from the Mid-West and the South.

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/24/2008 10:43:37 PM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Vendaval

quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

What aspects of Gorean philosophy and interaction with Goreans cause you to spend time in this particular Gorean forum?

As mentioned above, several people in this particular forum have been interested in sharing ideas and inspiration with me. I appreciate their hospitality and kindness.

Warm regards grace,

Vendaval

Pleased to meet you, Vendaval. We are definitely in agreement about this board. Thank you for sharing.

Regards-
Grace

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Post #: 102

RE: FW Dialogue - 1/26/2008 12:16:22 PM

Terrah

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Tal Ladies!

Good news!! My mare is coming home Monday morning. She is doing so much better since losing the colt. She's eating right, and now her poop is very solid and she has been taken off most of her medication. He wanted to keep her a couple more days to make sure any infection is truly gone and I have to agree with him on that one.

I am so happy now she's recovering so much more than she was. We talked about breeding her and she will be ready to foal again next year. We may do that, or wait 2 years just to allow everything to go well for her for a longer period, depends if she gets ill again or not. He said she would make a complete recovery and though she will have some medication to bring home, it's only to make sure no infection occurs within the next couple weeks.

Again, thank you all for your support and kind thoughts and prayers. I am sure it all helped a great deal. I was hard pressed to get involved with much while I didn't know about her, my thoughts just would not come. I know I sound silly, but she is one of my favorite mares, you should have seen her when we first brought her home, she had such a hard time adjusting at first and it took me a month to get her to let me pet her, and six months to get her to like the treats I give them. Once she got passed all that, she showed me a true friend and she has been gentle and kind. We got her as a baby, just six months old now she's nearly 3. I just love that mare, and I will send pics along as soon as I get her looking better. She's a bit slim and wand looking but she's gonna be back to her normal self in a couple months of good food and running around the field with her pasture mates.

I wish you all well..

Terrah

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/26/2008 12:31:11 PM

ElizabethAnne

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Hello Terrah!

Most excellent news!

Liz

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/26/2008 3:11:20 PM

amelliagrace

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Good evening, Ladies, Mistresses, Women, Hey-you, and the occasional Ma'am

(Sorry, sometimes my inner Imp chews through the restraints)-

As a Free, how do you handle it when you disagree strongly with the signifigant men in your life?

Regards-
Grace
Edited, once again, to paste dropped letters into place.

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 1/26/2008 3:14:57 PM >

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/26/2008 4:07:18 PM

ygraine

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well Grace, that is a great question!
I have to say, I don't have any "significant other" person in my life just now, which is a good thing, but within my circle of Gorean friends there are men whom I respect and defer to, and I do just that.
When we disagree, not that it ever happens (ha ha), I try hard to present my counter arguments in a less confrontational way. I am not always great at it, but trying hard to do that has given me skills I can use in many other circumstances! That being said, with men I do not know or respect, I am more likely to just be blunt. I know however I address them I am accountable for what I am saying.
I was going to write some pontification about how women need remember their place, etc., when I realized how hypcritical that would be since many times I do not. I am way too easily provoked by wanna-be's, etc. I should make my mantra: achieve indifference....achieve indifference...
Thank you once again for your thought provoking questions!
Y

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/26/2008 5:48:55 PM

ElizabethAnne

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Hello Ladies,

That IS an excellent question.   Me disagree???!!! Nevah! ~coughs~ Well, umm...yeah.    I have an FC, and a few men that I respect and value them and their opinons.   And yes, I have at times disagreed with all them, luckily not at the same time. Like Y said, I try to not be completely confrontational, and temper my thoughts before I speak.   Many times, I will say, let me think how I want to say something BEFORE I speak. Not always, but, usually.   I am fairly a blunt person, but nearly as much as I was at one time.

I think Y hit the nail on the head, regardless, we are repsonsible for what we say, how we come across, and the words we use.   I have always told the girls, there is no backspace OFF line, you only have one shot.   For me they became words to live by.    Mostly with people I don't know, and don't care about I'm sarcastic. Haven't been able to curb that, and honestly, I really don't want to. And yes, that indifference thingy. Gotta love it.   The opposite of hate is not love, it's indifference.

One thing I won't do, is get into a heated debate on the boards with men, I really don't believe it's our place to do so in public.   I may email my thoughts to someone, but if it's something I think will turn into a debate with a man, I just won't do it.

Take care,

Liz

< Message edited by ElizabethAnne -- 1/26/2008 5:52:34 PM >

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/26/2008 7:23:13 PM

Sylverdawn

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Hello grace:

Well I live with a Gorean man and there are times that we strongly disagree about something. As I am not Gorean I dont have to deal with place issues but I do have to deal with dealing with a man who has definitive ideas about how he is spoken to and what he will tolerate. And, early in our relationship I did hear "Enuff!!" quite alot. I have found timing is everything I rarely get enmeshed in debate with him thats not going to make me any points. I have learned that I am a right fighter at times especially when I know I am correct in something; I have also learned winning and being correct sometimes isn't as important as I believed it to be in the beginning of my marriage. I have also learned to pick my battles, there are things that in the total scheme of my life are SOOOOOOOOOO not important. In my relationship I wait until an appropriate moment to discuss something when reason is likely to win out if I believe it will be a volatial topic. Outside of my relationship shrugs depends who it is, I rarely let board stuff upset me anymore occasionally someone will say something I just have to respond to with sarcasm and true to form the person on the other end rarely gets it so that can be an exercise infutility. So more often than not when I speak my mind in Gorean company tone and content are modified but I am outspoken; its been both a curse and a blessing but I am who I am.

SD

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/26/2008 9:18:14 PM

Aswad

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~fr~

Just poking my head in for a moment... From the POV of most of the men I know off-line, an accurate summary of the ways to deal with men offered here, the two strategies would appear to be the indirect approach (colloquially, "manipulation") and kowtowing. Both piss off the aforementioned men, who spend a great deal of time trying to teach their women to be blunt with them, as is how they prefer it. Personally, I prefer a measure of bluntness, too, so would anyone care to connect the dots for me? Right now, to be frank, the outline resembles a kef to my eyes, but there are other interpretations, neh?

Right now, that's as much as I can comment on this topic without vituperative emoting.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/26/2008 10:10:54 PM

amelliagrace

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Aswad-
Indeed, that being the case, you'd probably get along just fine with me.

General reply-
I do agree wholeheartedly with some things that have been said by the Women in answer to this question, however.
1. Choose your battles.
2. Remember there is no backspace.
3. Take responsibility.

Something I find interesting here, is that even though I'm a submissive personality, when it comes to Men that I respect enough to interact wtih my choice, and to share various aspects of my life with, tend to expect them to be able to stand toe to toe with me, when we disagree, and take it like a Man.

What does this mean? It means that I expect to be able to speak plainly, without a lot of simpering, or excessive diplomacy, and have it accepted as a point of view worth listening to, and as being of the same merit as any disagreement voiced by a Free Person. I tend to be, IMO, reasonably diplomatic and tactful most of the time, and feel that level of deference should be sufficient when disagreeing with a FM I respect. On rare occasions, this may mean that I get downright "in your face" blunt - but not unless I feel the point of disagreement is a "hill worth dying on".

In a Significant Other situation, I'm quite comfortable with the other person having the veto vote. That doesn't mean I won't voice my opinion. Sometimes rather strongly. What it does mean is that after discussing the point of disagreement, I'll generally go along with that the veto vote holder has to say. Some issues, however, are too important for me to do that. In those cases, the disagreement is liable to get heated, go long, and take time to find a suitable resolution.

Aswad mentioned "manipulation". This may be a Mars and Venus type thing, part of the time. IMO there are two forms of back door diplomacy. One is definitely manipulative. The other is simply tactful diplomacy. I suppose that individual preception is rather important where this point is concerned.

Could it not be seen as outright manipulative to swallow my disagreement or make light of a serious difference of opinion? Is depriving the Man the opportunity to hear, evaluate, and respond to a dissenting opinion not, in effect, shielding him, protecting him, or babying him? Personally, that seems disrespectful to me. After all, if the Man wants a close friendship or intimate relationship with me, I'm a package deal, just as he is. Further, any Man who earns my respect is perfectly capable of having a good strong disagreement with a woman without going into ego-defensive meltdown.

One other thought...I tend to lose a vast amount of respect for a man who plays the gender card when having a serious discussion over a disagreement on a signifigant matter, with a woman he holds as important enough to have an FC, marriage, or good friend relationship with. If he can't then he needs a slave instead. I believe that a man who has one of those relationships with a FW expects there to be disagreements, and if he didn't see the value in the differences in opinion and perspective, he wouldn't have entered into those relationships to begin with.

Regards-
Grace

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/27/2008 6:17:08 AM

ygraine

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Hello Aswad, Grace,
Wow, you know, I did not think of what I was doing as either manipulative or kowtowing! I was thinking of it more as being more polite or respectful, but still getting my point across. The fact is, if I come across as bitchy to any of the afore mentioned men they will call me on it damn fast. I did not mean to imply I was twisting things to get my way (which I would consider manipulative) nor was I being a milquetoast and just saying "yes dear" which, yeah would piss them off beyond redemption!
I had a conversation with a friend last night about this and he said, it is in the "tone" that you speak, and perhaps that is what I meant. I am not afraid to put forth my ideas, but I would do it in a respectful way, as a student to a beloved teacher perhaps?
The things I cannot do is back up and say.."oh that is not what I meant".. or .."never mind"...or get snotty. I am accountable for what I say.
I hope this cleared it up some. I think, as you said Aswad, these men would see right through manipulation and the consequences would be pretty ugly. As for kowtowing...well I think if you asked any of them if I did that they would laugh like hell.
I have to say though, that regarding kowtowing, I would disagree that all men do not like that. I think there is an (albeit small) subset of Gorean men who would prefer a slave over a free woman because a slave would do what he commanded, and not disagree. I think they do prefer kowtowing over a woman who would speak her own opinion. To me, those who use the phrase "mouthy free woman" prefer just that.
Thank you for your input to the discussion, Aswad! I am glad to see men on here, too.
Y

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/27/2008 6:35:15 AM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ygraine

Hello Aswad, Grace,
Wow, you know, I did not think of what I was doing as either manipulative or kowtowing! I was thinking of it more as being more polite or respectful, but still getting my point across.

I don't picture you as either of those, actually, which is why I mentioned the distinction between diplomacy and manipulation clothed as courtesy. I do not think Aswad was failing to recognize the difference. Perhaps he will comment on that.

quote:

The fact is, if I come across as bitchy to any of the afore mentioned men they will call me on it damn fast. I did not mean to imply I was twisting things to get my way (which I would consider manipulative) nor was I being a milquetoast and just saying "yes dear" which, yeah would piss them off beyond redemption!
I had a conversation with a friend last night about this and he said, it is in the "tone" that you speak, and perhaps that is what I meant.

That is, indeed, how I've pictured you in my mind's eye, ygraine. Not bitchy, not milquetoast. I however, will readily own that I can be seen as bitchy at times. In fact, I've heard people I know and love say, "hmmm, a bit bitchy on this subject, aren't you?" The answer to which is usually, "And your point is? Let's get back to this discussion." Then again, I have conversations all the time (mostly offline) with men suffering from advanced testosterone poisoning. I figure that and the bitchiness usually balance out in the end.

quote:

I am not afraid to put forth my ideas, but I would do it in a respectful way, as a student to a beloved teacher perhaps?

I have to say that he must have superior knowledge and experience to mine on the subject in question in order for me to defer to him in that manner. Genetic composition and a penis alone won't get it. Men I respect, however, wouldn't dream of being respected or defered to simply on that basis anyway.

quote:

The things I cannot do is back up and say.."oh that is not what I meant".. or .."never mind"...or get snotty. I am accountable for what I say.
I hope this cleared it up some. I think, as you said Aswad, these men would see right through manipulation and the consequences would be pretty ugly. As for kowtowing...well I think if you asked any of them if I did that they would laugh like hell.
I have to say though, that regarding kowtowing, I would disagree that all men do not like that. I think there is an (albeit small) subset of Gorean men who would prefer a slave over a free woman because a slave would do what he commanded, and not disagree. I think they do prefer kowtowing over a woman who would speak her own opinion. To me, those who use the phrase "mouthy free woman" prefer just that.

Yes, they certainly do exist, whether they call themselves gorean or not, lol. Thing is, I see the term "mouthy free woman" as a way of saying, "how dare you expect me to be man enough to hold my own in a conversation, or life, without the equivalent of a golfer's handicap?". Certainly, if a man feels all women should behave and speak as slaves, then those are the only women he should willingly interact with. That is his choice, and I respect any man's right to make that choice.

quote:

Thank you for your input to the discussion, Aswad! I am glad to see men on here, too.
Y

I, too, appreciate the comments made by the men who've popped into this thread from time to time.

Regards-
Grace
Edited, this time, (sigh) because I screwed up the cut and paste.

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 1/27/2008 6:40:17 AM >

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/27/2008 8:28:33 AM

Sylverdawn

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Aswad:

WOW that was quite the post. You like blunt.. well here is blunt.. most men can't handle a strong willed intelligent upfront woman without reacting with what I call "small man complex". Puffing up blustery misogynistic speech," You're only a woman" crap. I see it here on the boards and I encounter it in life especially among so called Gorean Men. They want a woman who is upfront but not too upfront, they want a woman who thinks but like them. There is no intended manipulation in picking the place and time of your battles. It is about maintaining the even keel of a relationship and I would hope that both parties work at that. You don't go talk to your employer about a pay raise after losing him money. You don't go talk to your parents about a car after failing all your classes and you don't go piss off the man in your life after he has walked in the door having pulled a double shift. All that leads to is negative encounters. I want to be respected for what I say, how I say it and the way I present my ideas and positions. Part of that is knowing when what I say will have the best chance of being heard. To call that manipulation is misunderstanding the intent.

SD

PS I dont kowtow well either

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/27/2008 9:05:32 AM

Cherylmazana

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I find I just say what I feel, if there is disagreement I have learned that if neither of you will back down its going to get messy so I usually agree to disagree, my mind won’t change but then again neither will his.

And I also like to choose the right time to discuss things, I know for sure if he’s tired and irritated no matter what I say unless its along the lines of “you look tired, let me get you a cup of tea” he’s not going to hear a word I say anyway.

Cheryl

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RE: FW Dialog - 1/27/2008 10:46:53 AM

Totalmaster4you

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~FR~

Tal Ladies,

As Aswad said I too occasionally look in on your discussions but till now I've refrained from posting so that I wouldn't interrupt the flow and continuity of your conversation. I thought I'd post to provide feedback on discussions with men. Of course I can only speak with certainty for myself. The one thing I haven't heard mentioned is honesty. In some cases I've observed such determination to be right that honesty is sacrificed and words and thoughts are parsed. Sometimes I think the word blunt is used as a synonym for direct and I see them as different. I want the woman to be direct with her thoughts and not ramble around the "bush" in making their point and this is far different than being bludgeoned with an opinion with no room for differences. The other thing that I dislike is waiting for the "right" time to have a difficult conversation. There is no right time, it doesn't exist. Just make sure when you bring it up that there's sufficient time to have the conversation. There nothing more frustrating than having a bomb dropped just as you walk into a place where you can't discuss or finish the conversation.

I hope that your new year is proceeding as planned and all your resolutions are being kept,
TM4Y

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/27/2008 10:58:58 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Aswad:

WOW that was quite the post. You like blunt.. well here is blunt.. most men can't handle a strong willed intelligent upfront woman without reacting with what I call "small man complex". Puffing up blustery misogynistic speech," You're only a woman" crap. I see it here on the boards and I encounter it in life especially among so called Gorean Men. They want a woman who is upfront but not too upfront, they want a woman who thinks but like them. There is no intended manipulation in picking the place and time of your battles. It is about maintaining the even keel of a relationship and I would hope that both parties work at that. You don't go talk to your employer about a pay raise after losing him money. You don't go talk to your parents about a car after failing all your classes and you don't go piss off the man in your life after he has walked in the door having pulled a double shift. All that leads to is negative encounters. I want to be respected for what I say, how I say it and the way I present my ideas and positions. Part of that is knowing when what I say will have the best chance of being heard. To call that manipulation is misunderstanding the intent.

SD

PS I dont kowtow well either

Wow. You need to get out and meet some other men.

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/27/2008 11:06:01 AM

ElizabethAnne

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Howdy,

Welcome to our little corner of the world Aswad.   There are times to speak up, and times to wait, as Cheryl, and others have mentioned.   Interesting you chose the word manipulate, I wonder what word you would have chosen, had the answers here been those of confronting men more as an equal. Bitch perhaps? Traditionally, and I am only speaking for me, my own experiences, no ONE else, I have found when trying to debate an issue with a Gorean man, head to toe, it is useless.   Unless they want to listen, they won't.

I am in sales, anyone who knows me knows this, and I have found over many many years, to see it from the other side of the fence.   I anaylze many things before I choose to debate/disagree/be confrontational. As someone said, pick the battle.   That is for many situations, not just dealing with men, but with um's, with clients, in all walks of life.   I have seen posts from men that will firmly state, I want to respond to this, but I just don't have the enough time right now.   That is no different than what I do, put it on a back burner think about it, get my thoughts together, then respond.   Better to respond with logic, than with emotion.

Well Aswad, if your intent was to incite reaction on this subject, I would say you succeeded.  Leveling the words slave/manipulation towards a group of free women, be prepared for the backlash. And there ARE men that do prefer slaves to free women, as I have said many times, far easier to command a slave than to command the respect of free women. And there are those men that SAY they could care less...right.   From all the Gorean men I have encountered over the years, I would say there may be a handful that could care less what others think, usually the opposite is true, yet hell would freeze over before they would admit it.

Keep in mind Gorean women ARE submissive, with every one of them in varying degrees of submissiveness.   But one thing I have seen in common with the women I know - (disclaimer - again from MY own personal experience) tend to temper their thoughts constructively with Gorean men, and with respect, especially to those men WITHIN their circle of influence.

Take care,

Liz

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RE: FW Dialog - 1/27/2008 11:23:45 AM

ElizabethAnne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Totalmaster4you

~FR~

The other thing that I dislike is waiting for the "right" time to have a difficult conversation. There is no right time, it doesn't exist. Just make sure when you bring it up that there's sufficient time to have the conversation. There nothing more frustrating than having a bomb dropped just as you walk into a place where you can't discuss or finish the conversation.

TM4Y

Hello,

So for you a right time would be...when there is time to finish such said conversation - so in actuality THERE is a right time vs wrong time.

Thanks for your input,

I wish you well,

Elizabeth

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/27/2008 12:05:38 PM

amelliagrace

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Wow. You need to get out and meet some other men.

Well said, Tim. This brings up a companion point. A great many men I've met over the years have had limited exposure to what I'd call quality free women. An even greater number seem to have had experiences that echo SD's, if you substitute equally negative, female indicative terms for "small man complex" and "misogynistic".

Seems to me that so many men and women need to meet more members of the opposite sex. The majority of both men and women, imo, aren't individuals I could have close, mutually respectful relationships with. That means having to meet a LOT of 'em to find a few keepers.

For me, this is a primary attraction of this board. There is a high percentage of the posters here that I consider to be a cut above the average.

Regards-
Grace

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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/27/2008 1:06:43 PM

Maahsatti

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Hi Liz,

You are SPOT on...You and Cath have expressed exactly how I feel and how I deal with Gorean men, so I need not explain my opinions, because they are the same as yours.

Love ya,
Babs

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