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RE: FW Dialogue - 6/8/2009 10:16:59 AM   
MissDominae


Posts: 94
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline 		Thank you Kimveri,
it does indeed and you have my thanks for your reply.   For whatever little it is worth I am coming to understand that what honorifics I may or may not be given are manifestly unimportant, but the *reasons* for the giving or not giving may be of very great importance indeed.   Courteous replies such as yours give me greater insight into these matters and help me learn; thus they are very much appreciated.

Be well .............. Olivia


_____________________________

***~ Success can not be measured in the respect gained from others, only by the respect that, with complete self honesty and freed of ego or delusion, we are able to give ourselves.~***

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 1341
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/8/2009 10:30:14 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2543
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		And yet, there are still others who have blatently displayed over the yrs they are indeed phoneys and are given a free pass due to double standards.
This is the mentality I abandoned, My only wish is that I would have done it a lot sooner then I did.

Maahsatti


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 1342
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/8/2009 10:34:47 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2543
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi there Olaf,

I could not agree more.
But what do I know, I only follow a philos to the best of my ability under the guidelines of Books I have read.

Take care,
Maah


_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to JarlOlaf)
Profile   Post #: 1343
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/8/2009 10:34:56 AM   
MissDominae


Posts: 94
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline 		((**makes the command decision to stay out of the middle of this conversation**))

_____________________________

***~ Success can not be measured in the respect gained from others, only by the respect that, with complete self honesty and freed of ego or delusion, we are able to give ourselves.~***

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 1344
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/8/2009 10:45:03 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 3911
Status: offline 		At first and still this whole topic has me going things that make you go hmmmm and questioning how some free actually view being called Master and Mistress and other "standard" slave behavior towards free and how vital they use it to validate themselves based on the use of or lack of use by a slave or as Kimveri puts it so much more succulently than i ever could --

quote:

those small things that support the appearance of Gorean-ness are the most they can attain & thus are of vital importance.
 

To me, i have always see protocols of slaves as well -- for the slaves, and i still do based on what i know of them and my experience among Goreans following same.  Therefore, if slaves are required to specifically change what is seen as a type of standard protocol and one they follow pretty regularly, by their Master (when this is someone i respect) -- i would view it as something to consider especially if the protocol had been in play and suddenly changed towards a select group of people or specific person.  Its not a thinking thang on the slave's part its an obedience of an authority above them and specific to them -- i.e., their Master.   If i see someone way to dependant on protocols -- i tend to get a little red flaggy on them wondering how they really define themselves and what they use for validation of their Goreanness but more important their being Free.

Here's what has helped me in the last day --  Slaves in the books were used as tools of the free all the time -- many times they would be required to be outside the "standard mindset and protocals" and complete obedience towards their Master's demands...... a point i had forgotten in my discussion of this topic with someone, so to me, if someone focuses more on the slave's not using protocol to them as what is important and thinking its something wrong with the free who rescinded the standard protocol a slave usually follows, rather than the reason the Free Person behind the orders thinking when they ordered same, to me, they are focusing in the wrong thing.  If a slave is used as a tool along with forthrightness from the Free involved, wouldn't that make you tilt your head and wonder -- why?  Somehow i doubt its the Free's lack of knowledge about slaves especailly when the slave follows it any other time.


angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 6/8/2009 10:51:07 AM >

_____________________________




I think part of a best friend's job should be to
immediately clear your computer history if you die.

There is great need for a sarcasm font. Just sayin'




(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 1345
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/9/2009 2:35:49 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 806
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry its taken me so long to get back to you Thadius.
You said
quote:


I would simply respond that in many cases, there have been women that jump back and forth from both sides of the kneel, and therefore it sometimes makes it confusing for folks (especially new ones) to judge who is a free woman.  I tend to lean towards the side of a slave should error on the side of caution and refer to any new woman as Mistress, as it is better to be corrected about the status of a person than to attempt to make a judgement; but that is just me and my opinion.

We then come to the issue of those "free" womem that aren't really free, they are just slaves puffing themselves up on a soapbox, and looking for a bit of attention...  enough said.


In the books a woman could be naked and in chains/ or be a secret slave in her heart however unless she had actually been enslaved slaves had to treat her with the appearance of respect and call her Mistress or be punished.

Now granted we don’t live on Gor, but many try to follow Gorean customs so it always makes me smile when this is ignored, and the “slave in robes thing comes up. A woman could be enslaved and freed, and once freed she was treated as free, it didn’t matter what her actions were, or how many times in her life she had been enslaved and freed unless she had a collar around her neck and been pronounced a slave she was free with all the courtesy that entailed. Of course with that type of history the chances of her remaining free for long was minor but while free she was treated the same as any other free woman.

So why is this very important fact ignored repeatedly?

There is a clear demarcation between slave and free no matter how a free woman acts, she can be a whore, work in the sex industry, walk the streets looking like a slut but she is free. You may think she should be in a collar, you may think she is nothing but a slut, but courtesy to her by the book Goreans remained set in stone.

Sometimes I think this is one of the worst products of our society that courtesy is a casualty, that the forms no matter how meaningless are observed.  That the niceties have been ignored as useless carryon’s and are no longer required. Politeness is a casualty of this century, the ignorant rule and its death is not marked by a stone but by a midden heap.

There is a big difference between the philosophy and the customs, but they are compatible, there are reasons for politeness and courtesy in an armed society where there is no penalty for killing a person who insulted you or yours.

There were reasons in the past for men always being scrupulously polite to women but in our current time when so many women are sluts and politeness is seen as an anachronism can many see past their learned responses and act as a book Gorean would with old fashioned politeness and then demand it from his slaves as natural, right and helping to impress upon her the difference between them.

It’s a small thing but a symptom of a much larger issue as many things are, and in my opinion shows very little but rudeness, and you can be a Gorean and rude.

I have rambled quite a bit here so to sum up, whether or not a slave uses a title doesn’t show if they or their owner is Gorean or not, all it shows is if they have no time for courtesy and think that rudeness is the best way of getting their point across.

Cheryl

(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 1346
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/13/2009 5:23:23 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1535
Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: offline 		~total change of subject~

Hello Ladies and those who read this thread,

I have a memory of my Mom I would like to share, on the surface it's simply a fond memory of mine, but when I've thought it about it a little deeper, I see so much wisdom in her actions.

Long ago, close to 20 years now, Mom and I went to a U-Pick Strawberry patch.   And so we were picking berries, and I looked up to see Mom in the midst of a thistle patch that had sprouted up in the berry rows.   I asked her what she was doing, there were berries everywhere, why would she pick those in the thistle patch.  She stood up and said, well I know no one else would pick these berries and they are the biggest and sweetest I've picked all morning.

I've thought about that a lot recently.  Most  people tend to take the "easy" path; Yet, by putting in the extra effort, by sticking your hand in thistles when you know you are going to get stung a little, in the end, the rewards are so well worth the time and energy expounded.

That's all, just a little reflection.  I hope you all find the biggest and sweetest berries - even though it might not be the "easy" path.

Take care,

Liz



(in reply to Cherylmazana)
Profile   Post #: 1347
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/13/2009 6:04:32 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1791
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks  for sharing that, Liz!  What an awesome memory, and lesson.
 
Regards-
Gracie

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 1348
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/15/2009 5:57:27 AM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2543
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

What an awesome memory, and lesson.


Yes indeed it is Grace.

   Reminds me a lot of the path Goreans take. Not to take the easy road to endure and move onward and upward.
Standing up for one's beliefs in right and wrong and not to follow the leader like a sheep to the slaughter.
It may be a hard road, it will definately hurt, but all the better one will be in the end to know they made that extra effort.

Take care,
Babs

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 6/15/2009 5:58:11 AM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 1349
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/19/2009 8:34:46 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1791
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Happy Friday, Ladies -
 
Below are pasted a few quotes from the pen of author Robert Jordan that I thought you mind find interesting, fun, and food for thought.  Please comment, or post  some interesting quotes you yourself have run across lately, be they from a Gor book not, that you feel fit in with Gorean ethos, or just plain being a Woman.
 
Gracie


"The Creator made women to please the eye, and to boggle the mind."
 

"Any fool knows men and women think differently at times, but the biggest difference is this. Men forget, but never forgive; women forgive, but never forget."

"A man who trusts everyone is a fool and a man who trusts no one is a fool. We are all fools if we live long enough."

"The men in my family are strong because the women in my family kill and eat the weak ones."

"Take what you want, and pay for it."

"But men often mistake killing and revenge for justice. They seldom have the stomach for justice. "

""I'll never forget the first time Davram took me by the scruff of my neck and showed me he was the stronger of us. It was magnificent! If a woman is stronger than her husband, she comes to despise him. She has the choice of either tyrannizing him or else making herself less in order not to make him less. If the husband is strong enough, though, she can be as strong as she is, as strong as she can grow to be."

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 1350
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/19/2009 8:57:05 AM   
Naturallurker


Posts: 114
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		Hello Grace,

The Wheel of Time is a great series! Most of the above are simply truisms IMO. What was nice about the series was that Davram Basharr and spouse, like wise Faile were the opposite to most of the female dominated (small d there ladies) female authoritarian societies RJ was creating. After all MOST bowed to Tarvalon. In Faile and her mother, and their society, we get to see the very strongest women manifestly thrilling at their men being the very strongest they can be. Excellence desires excellence, strength desires strength to match it and thus enable it to excell  higher and higher. Without overtly debunking feminism RJ managed to neatly show how even a snarling woman might hold within her a seed that responds to a dominant male who with out fuss, whining or  excessive chest thumping about his masculinity, gets on with the job of sometimes  turning her over his knee Think Suian.
Two major cultures The West and the Seanchan  take different approaches to female power, one harnessing it via A'dam (collar capable of delivering some nasty side-effects) and the other bowing to it while quietly resenting the giving up of absolute independant soverignty to it. ( I am sure there were more than a few cheers at the split in the White Tower.)

Great books thanks for mentioning them here.
Cheers
Nat


(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 1351
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/26/2009 8:20:40 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1535
Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: offline 		Heya Ladies!

Been an interesting week for me on another board I belong to; I have been called, "girl", (though I am 53), "that elizabeth anne person", rude, mouthy and all sorts of other things, including "wearing a collar" and last but not least, I have been "cuffed".  Good grief.

You see, I joined a group, a group I *thought* was about living by the Gorean ethos..off line.  I've followed it off and on, and I noticed there were a whole slew of posts by a slave giving advice to men, to free women, about Gorean vegetation.  I read the majority of them, and it struck a chord in me.  One...where does a supposed "slave" get off giving ADVICE to free?  And two...is this group about ON LINE?  So I asked that question, and wow, did I ever learn a lot about a lot of people.  Bottom line, by asking a question...to clarify the intent of the group, what ensued was nothing short of a maelstrom of posts.  In fact, I believe that is highest number of responses from any single post on that thread.  Gee, I made their group popular! ~laughs merrily~

At any rate, suffice to say I left the group, and sit back amused as the slaves run the show and run their masters through manipulation.  Though of course the "masters" don't see the blantant disrespect their slaves have exhibited, and one even told my FC he had the ARROGANCE to disrespect his slave.   Oh my!  That was downright funny.

And how was YOUR week???

Take care,

Liz

edited to add:  Oh yes...these PEOPLE consider themselves Gorean!  Forgot to add that.  ~heh~

< Message edited by ElizabethAnne -- 6/26/2009 8:32:52 AM >

(in reply to Naturallurker)
Profile   Post #: 1352
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/26/2009 8:48:55 AM   
Naturallurker


Posts: 114
Joined: 8/22/2008
Status: offline 		Hello ElizabethAnne,

lets face it most groups online are owned and run by slaves, most men run to slaves for advice just so they can learn the local lingo, I presume so that they will feel more at home with all the other coughs well educated gor-e-UMs.
Nat






(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 1353
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/26/2009 9:20:09 AM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Mornin', Liz!

Yeah, I got to participate in all that...amusing...hullaballoo.

I have to say, coffee spewed out my nose in a most UN-fw-like manner upon reading that Brule had to "respect" the slave who disrespected several free, both men & women. Hypocrisy abounds, neh?

Have a fab day, lady!

~Kim

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 1354
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/27/2009 5:22:41 PM   
Mitzie


Posts: 680
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline 		I think that what you find there at the moment is some nasty insults from rapture

which FW have been slaves before ?

kimvera to RavenofPK (eating out of dog dish comes to mind) and previously to Troi

elizabeth_anne to Bull..and before that? I would have to think on because that was a tad ago..

nyx has as well..and a few others who are not present.


but the we know Rapture likes to pull anyone down which is why he is banned in so many places .

I begin to wonder what is a right place and what is a wrong place on there to join ?

Mitzie











_____________________________

"The free should not be slave, and the slave should not be free," he said. "I do not understand," she said. "Just as it is wrong for the properly free to be enslaved," he said, "so, too, it is wrong for the properly enslaved to be free."PoG



(in reply to Kimveri)
Profile   Post #: 1355
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/27/2009 5:31:38 PM   
CallaFirestormBW


Posts: 3112
Joined: 6/29/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne

You see, I joined a group, a group I *thought* was about living by the Gorean ethos..off line. I've followed it off and on, and I noticed there were a whole slew of posts by a slave giving advice to men, to free women, about Gorean vegetation. I read the majority of them, and it struck a chord in me. One...where does a supposed "slave" get off giving ADVICE to free?


I would like to comment, specifically, on the bolded aspect of this statement.

I have had the pleasure, over the years, of having some amazingly talented servants in our household. I will briefly comment that when The Bladewing ran things, and we were male-led, we were Gorean, but now The Bladewing has passed on, and I am Matriarch, we tend towards more of a Victorian-esque household, but it doesn't change the essence of what I am about to say.

One of the necessary skills of the head of a household is how to make the most of the skilled individuals within that household. Not all of those individuals-of-skill will be Free... in fact, because of our household's preferences, we've ended up with a significant portion of highly-skilled servants. I have, on many occasions, asked the advice of one of our servants on topics that xhe was particularly skilled at. On occasion, even when I have not solicited advice, one of our servants has taken initiative to make sure that I knew something I needed to know.

I would say that, where a Free person asks for knowledge that a servant (read here as "slave") is particularly capable of providing, it behooves the Free person to consider the value of the advice, rather than the source. To me, that was one of the things I learned from The Bladewing that has provided me a great deal of good service as I have taken over the running of the House.

Dame Calla

_____________________________

***
THE SENILITY PRAYER
Grant me the senility to forget the people I never liked anyway,
The good fortune to run into the ones I do, and
The eyesight to tell the difference.

(in reply to ElizabethAnne)
Profile   Post #: 1356
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/27/2009 5:49:45 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1535
Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hello Calla,

While I agree, free can learn from slaves, I still find it highly irregular a slave will post on a Gorean thread, titling it, "Advice to Masters".   Specifically the tone of her thread, wouldn't agree tone means everything?   A tone will change an entire post, or a complete conversation.    I personally found the slave's posts in question condescending and patronizing.  Not something ANY Gorean free, man or woman that I know would tolerate.

Take care,

Elizabeth

(in reply to CallaFirestormBW)
Profile   Post #: 1357
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/27/2009 6:34:06 PM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1535
Joined: 3/5/2007
Status: offline 		Well hello Mitzie,

I have never hid the fact I was a slave for many years, and my Master freed me, old news there.   In fact,  throughout the books men freed slaves quite often. 

What WAS news to that I was a slave to Bull.  I wonder if he knows that.  I'll have to call and tell him.

I don't know any free woman THAT was once a slave that isn't open about her life's experience.  All of life's experience makes us what we are, and frankly I am pretty damned happy where I am now.

Mitzie, if you want CORRECT information, why don't you step up to the plate and ask people direct?

I wish you well,

Elizabeth

(in reply to Mitzie)
Profile   Post #: 1358
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/27/2009 6:35:24 PM   
Brule


Posts: 61
Joined: 11/1/2006
Status: offline

elizabeth_anne to Bull.

Mitzie you may want to get your facts correct before you post something. If not the egg is on your face for saying it when you don't,

Brule

(in reply to Mitzie)
Profile   Post #: 1359
RE: FW Dialogue - 6/27/2009 6:47:45 PM   
Kimveri


Posts: 775
Joined: 7/14/2007
From: Vegas
Status: offline 		Mitzie,

I would suggest that anyone wanting to know about me could simply read some of my MANY essays & learn.....but that's surely too much work.

In the future, if there's something you just have to know about me feel free to ask me. I won't make shit up.

~Kimveri

_____________________________

"You get what you accept."

"It is always wise to examine the facts from all angles before one renders a summary judgement."~_Marcus_

(in reply to Mitzie)
Profile   Post #: 1360
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