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RE: FW Dialogue


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RE: FW Dialogue - 1/28/2008 9:06:00 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Aswad

quote:

If one has not met a man or woman of caliber, it is easy to assume that men or women are all of substandard quality, while it's really not the case. It's just that quality (of the sort that one looks for in the Free) is an exceedingly rare thing among humans.


I think that is an important key point here.  To often we go into things with a perception, sometimes this perception has been formed and proven through experience and being silly human beings we tend to use that to paint everything else the same way.  Kind of our way to equalize everything into a neat and tidy box.  Unfortunately life was never meant to be neat and tidy, nor are human beings that equal to begin with so as to place them in any sort of box. This is why I have become a devotee of personal merit rather then brush strokes.  I tend to judge you being you, not on who that last guy/gal was and assume you are the same way.

I believe personal merit is the keystone to this whole Gorean thing.  You are who you strive to be and you can’t ride on the coat tails of others to take you to that final destination.  Which is why I personally find very distasteful the notion that ritual and custom supercede personal merit.

Jahna


_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: FW Dialogue - 1/28/2008 11:09:40 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hey, Jahna (apropos customs, neh?).

Humans have the ability to navigate the hierarchy from the generic and abstract to the specific and concrete with remarkable ease. Perhaps that is why we take it for granted to such an extent that we often do not realize what we are doing. And certainly there is an unfortunate tendency to gloss over the exceptions, which is fine in some instances, but tends to cause errors to creep into the equation, much in the same way that toxins will accumulate up the food chain until the heavy metals taken up by algae end up on our dinner plates in a highly refined form.

Yet, in my view, what you describe is the backswing of the pendulum. Personal merit is not a keystone, but simply an element (granted, a significant one) that flows from the more central ones. That comes down to immediacy and objectivism, two features that appear to be suggested as important. And living true to yourself is somewhat entangled with the notion of inner harmony, in the final analysis, I would argue. Which leads us to the manner in which the one flows from the other. By focusing on the present, immediate and perceivable reality in the manner suggested by a wide variety of practices (such as Buddhism, Zen, etc.), a monadic approach to reality inevitably follows. That is, one deals with the world as it is observed, rather than attempting to construct an inner representation from our expectations. Hence, one deals with manifest merit: the actions and circumstances that are in evidence. It is also apparent from this that the consistency of being in touch with oneself at all times is vitally important to maintaining a condition of meritousness, in that it is the only way to ensure that one's character remains in evidence at all times.

As I see it, the keystones are more along the lines of freedom, integrity, accountability, perseverance and excellence/strength.

None of the other posited tenets appear able to stand without such pillars as their foundation, but those pillars can stand on their own.

But, yes, the quoted passage was a key point to what I said. Humans are, generally speaking, a species that has the potential for what I would deem a noble life. They are also, generally speaking, highly unlikely to realize even a fraction of that potential, due to cultural legacies that can usually be traced back to the ignoble deeds of individual men and women at inauspicious crossroads in our past, or to a certain, irreducible universal constant that lies at the very foundation of basically all natural processes: entropy.

Another, viable, definition of life is a transient or permanent (in the case of divinity, H'sien, etc.) defiance of entropy.

If we view it as a river, flowing along the arrow of time, then we can use it to model macroscopic events just like microscopic ones. As a species, we go with the flow. It takes men and women of this intangible substance, the quality I refer to, in order to extend this defiance beyond the scope of their own bodies, in essence to make manifest will by imposing a structure on this flow. Such structure will inevitably yield to the current if that will is no longer asserted, and what was pure will become corrupt; what was made, will be unmade. Therein lies our mandate: to imbue the karmic flow with purpose. To impose our will and thereby give meaning to life itself. And in this, we also find the place reserved for the herd, in symbiosis with us- the closest thing to the Priest Kings that this world has. Consent does not figure into that; if one does not seize freedom, one either surrenders to the free, or to the undertow.

For only life itself can beget a living structure that can withstand the toll of the ages, and thereby perpetuate this perseverance... this defiance.

It is with this in mind that I seek to inspire (or, at times, provoke) reflection.
Granted, to attain purity is no simple thing.
But it is worthwhile.

Health,
al-Aswad.
(Initiate Caste)


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: FW Dialog - 1/28/2008 6:46:28 PM   
Totalmaster4you


Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Tal to the Free and Property,
Tal Orion,
Tal Babs,
 
My experience on the boards does not reflect what you are saying. Our experience in corresponding with each other has been of mutual respect whether we agree or not. We have each made an effort to see the others side and not have knee jerk reactions. From that I believe we are building a friendship based as much upon our differences as the things we agree upon. If we are having a discussion with someone new and find ourselves not understanding then our relationship allows us each to turn to the other to help us to understand the differing points of view, at least academically. I know for myself that I try to see the positive in what someone else's has written in order to understand what they are saying. I wish this was so with everyone we meet on the board but it is not.
 
Orion I agree with what you said in your post #137. That too has been my perception. My original purpose in coming on line was to make friends not to spout philosophies to piss people off. Friendship can easily bear the weight of differing opinions. It all depends on what one intended to begin with. As you and Aswad have both said we shall see how it all plays out but some good has already come out of this. There is now an awareness for all to reflect on and determine how they shall proceed in the future.
 
I wish you all well,
TM4Y

_____________________________

Sometime ago I decided it was time to change my nic. However I didn't wish to disconnect from my original profile. Since then I've signed Touch your mind (TYM or Tym). Opinions in my posts should be taken as my opinion and my opinion only.

(in reply to Maahsatti)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: FW Dialog - 1/28/2008 10:32:29 PM   
Karynn


Posts: 773
Joined: 6/8/2007
Status: offline 		Tal ya'll,

I have often contended that a slave might say just about anything on her mind, yes honest, yes blunt, but she should learn to say it with respect if she wishes to be heard. Most who know Goreans offline know that spending time with people who say they're Gorean and behave quite differently are easily ignored by leaving them off a guest list the next time something occurs with the group, etc. The quicker a slave learns how to speak with respect AND blunt honesty, the better path the slave has towards a genuine slave spirit that emanates in all done and said whether owned or not.

I do not think free women fall into the same rules or roles as slaves. I believe they have rights and freedoms that slaves do not have. Where a slave may speak with honesty and bluntness, there is also a point the slave's last word is, "Yes, Master." If a free person has heard a slave's comments or exchanges dialogue, the free person defines when the conversation begins and when it ends. Again, with tact and respect, it is likely the slave may find more time given for dialogue and if behavior does not show well, the conversation may end almost as soon as it began.

A free woman differs in my opinion because she has the right to address a subject, any subject, and share her thoughts without hesitation. In the case of a free woman, though, despite her freedoms of speech, the location she chooses to speak may dramatically effect whether or not her voice is heard. At a dinner party with members of the companion's work present, the free companion wouldn't join a small cluster of men and say, "I knew Harry should have chosen a different stock. If he had done more research, the recent bad news in the stock market wouldn't have hurt so much." First of all, she's blunt. She's honest. She's probably fairly close to accurate. Yet, is it wise to speak so honestly at a dinner party?

Will Henry be upset? I would imagine he may be, but even more so, what of his fellow workers. Do they return to work the next week with a lessened opinion of him? We may not realize how much men judge one another based on how they control their lives, and whether we like it or not, that includes whether or not they can control us. If we drink too much and become too flirtatious... if we speak with foul language at a formal dinner party... if we smack our gum in church... all of those things are public things and freedoms and bluntness. We are who we are, right?

Henry may value his companion's opinion about stock market trades and a loss of investment. He may ask her over private coffee on a Sunday morning, "How do you think we could fix this...?" and seriously listen to her opinion. He may ask the slave for that matter, and desire an opinion. A companion may say, "You really screwed up this time, Henry. I can't believe you lost 5,000 dollars. That was supposed to provide for Joe's college." Blunt. Direct. Timing. A slave may have the exact same opinion, and share it as well, "Master, it's frustrating when you have me working with a weekly budget and I notice a significant drop in our savings account. Is there any way I can help?"

For free women, I believe we are still limited by standards set by community. I believe that what is said may be as crisply blunt as several men spoke here. I know that dancing around an issue drives my companion nuts. He gets to a point of, "Enough already. Say what is on your mind." And I know better. By the time he's that exasperated, whatever it is I felt a need to share that would have been a touchy topic becomes even more touchy because I was so side-handed with it. Bluntness and direct intensity works in a relationship. It's necessary and it helps with life. Knowing when and where and how to speak all must be considered before the first word is spoken, no matter the station of the female speaking.

My opinion, and best wishes,
K

_____________________________

In all things, to thine own self be true.

(in reply to Totalmaster4you)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: FW Dialog - 1/28/2008 11:11:04 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings, Orion-

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
In the past I have had relationships with free and independent females, and they ended in failure. Western society seems to place a lot of expectations on how they should act, and this learned behavior often causes problems with dominant males.
I'd like to hear a few of the specifics with regard to the sentence highlighted above.  Certainly I can think of a number of things myself, but I'd like to hear which you are referring to, as the potential area there is a vast piece of real estate.  Just a thought:  Are the problems that arise in these types of relationships the result of the expectations western culture imposes on women, or are they possibly the result of that, coupled with male dominance which is not completely free of societal influence itself?  Are they the result of a pairing that isn't a close enough match for general harmony?

quote:

My girl speaks honestly to me, and sometimes disagrees with me, but she does so in a respectful and as pleasing manner as she can. So the premise that Men want a slave so that no one disagrees with them, is bullshit and avoiding issues. 

It is a cope out to say that Men choose slaves because it is easier, maybe instead they should try and look into some of the real reasons. When a Man says some of the real reasons, they deny it and point to something being wrong in the Man, which is also bullshit because the whole finger pointing starts with a Free Woman making a defensive comment about some Men choosing slaves over a Free Companion.


That could be the case, but is not necessarily so.  There is a distinctly different mindset in a Master/slave relationship and in an FC relationship, or a friendship between a FM and FW.  There is a greater degree of power differential inherent in the M/s relationship.  There is a distinct difference in degree and type of partnership and submission in most cases.  There are definitely significant control differences.

The challenges in M/s and FC relationships are not the same.  In talking to several men I respect deeply, their consensus has been that they find dealing with a FW or FC to be more of a challenge.  They also tend to agreement that a lot of this has to do with there not being the same level of control given over to them as a given.  Half of them referenced there being a greater degree of accountability and more negotiation required in the FC relationship.  With one exception, they have found relationships with FC and FW to be worth the extra effort.
 
Is having a slave "easy"?  Only if done poorly, or on Fantasy Island.  Men I know who prefer slaves to FC's have all stated, however, that they found those relationships demanding, but in ways they personally found easier to deal with.  Please note that I'm only stating what I've been told by men I've known.
 
Personally, I think every man who wants a woman in his life would benefit from having both a slave and an FC, either at the same time, or at differing times in his life.  There is more than one way to achieve that.  In point of fact, some men manage to get the best of both in one woman.  Still, it is up to the man to decide what he wants, and whether he wants both, and whether or not he prefers one woman, two, or six.

quote:

Some Free Women have not shed the manipulative Western woman thinking that society has nurtured into them, and it is apparent in some of their comments that have a dual purpose, get their point across and incite an emotional reaction.
I tend to find that a bit irritating myself, on occasion.  But I find it no more annoying to see that behavior from a Free Woman than I do when I see it from Men in this forum - and you know as well as I do that it happens.  To consider the practice to be one exclusive to FWs would be naive at best, willfully blind and ignorant at worst.

quote:

I have seen discussions with Free Women asking challenging questions, and that is great, and I have also seen Free Women just acting bitchy and a smartass. If some Free Women do not want some Free Men to have the perception that some are bitchy and a smartass, then address the actions of those Free Women because silence just condones it.
   I avoid being bitchy.  Most of what I term "bitchy" with regard to myself, isn't.  I use that term tongue-in-cheek, taking a well earned jab at some of the sillier double standards of Western society.  My DO frequently points out to me that what he considers bitchy is far removed from what I reference as being so, with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.  Outright female bitchiness of the malicious and sadistic variety is about as palatable as male defensiveness or condensention.  These traits are not exclusive to free persons, or either sex.
 
As for being a smartass...I don't think I've ever met an individual over the age of 11 who wasn't one on occasion.  Smartass can be used to underscore a point.  It can be done in good humor.  It can be done in decidedly ugly and mean spirited manner.  It is no more amusing or disgusting in a woman than it is in a man.
 
You have a point about silence equating to condoning, but only to a point.  Sometimes ignoring a particular behavior, starving it of fuel, is the most effective means to deal with it.  Now and then I see a post from a man or woman in this forum that I agree with in theory, but I'll not comment on it, or support the view in that discussion, because to do so would be to indirectly place a stamp of approval on the pissy attitude with which it was penned.

quote:

These are my perceptions and only actions over a period of time will change them. Let us see if this breaks down like it did before, with some Free Women just reinforcing those perceptions, some of the comments since this started already have.
I hope that one day you have an opportunity to meet, up close and personal, some of the truly Free and delightful women out there.  It can be a rather shocking experience, in a good way.
 
Regards-
Grace

(in reply to Karynn)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 3:13:15 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal TM4Y,

With regard to misunderstandings, there is an adage I have encountered during my work in the IT business, called Hanlon's Razor, which I have composed some corollaries to. The original deals with how one should bear in mind that a technician will know a lot of things that users don't, and that one should accordingly ascribe the trouble they sometimes cause to this lack of knowledge, rather than to any ill will on their part. If we generalize this, we get a law that is eminently applicable to human interactions:

Always ascribe a problem to the least offensive shortcoming that will account for it.

By bearing this in mind, we get an approach to understanding that I think is perhaps more applicable than mere forgiveness, in that it encourages us to make a positive assumption that nonetheless recognizes that the problem has a cause. Usually, online, the cause will be miscommunication or incorrect assumptions.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Totalmaster4you)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 3:30:52 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: amelliagrace

Are the problems that arise in these types of relationships the result of the expectations western culture imposes on women, or are they possibly the result of that, coupled with male dominance which is not completely free of societal influence itself? Are they the result of a pairing that isn't a close enough match for general harmony?


Any relationship requires work, and a strong commitment, to function well. And, certainly, our cultural legacy affects both parties in a relationship. But living with a subordinate requires a different set of qualifications than living with an equal, and inspires a different sort of mindset. You seem to be commenting on this here:

quote:

The challenges in M/s and FC relationships are not the same.


If the challenges to be met do not align with the qualifications, then the outcome will be poor.

quote:

Is having a slave "easy"?


Here, I must object a bit. Having a slave can indeed be easy, if the requisite skills are a natural talent for you. Just as having an FC can be easy, if one has an aptitude for such relationships. But not everyone has an aptitude for both, and social influences change the skills required away from what appears to come natural to us. It also depends significantly on the qualities of the people involved. I've found that certain personality issues (whether inherent, or as a consequence of prevaling social mores) can be nigh impossible to deal with in an equal partnership, yet trivial to deal with when a strong power dynamic exists. The same probably applies the other way around.

Either way, though, we should also bear in mind that, much as many Goreans would like to think differently, the same disposition that causes non-Goreans to be drawn to M/s-relationships will exist among some Goreans as well. That may well make a relationship with an FC less satisfying to those people, at least if it is not supplemented with a slave. I see you have commented much the same.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 5:22:29 AM   
ygraine


Posts: 674
Joined: 10/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:


Either way, though, we should also bear in mind that, much as many Goreans would like to think differently, the same disposition that causes non-Goreans to be drawn to M/s-relationships will exist among some Goreans as well. That may well make a relationship with an FC less satisfying to those people, at least if it is not supplemented with a slave. I see you have commented much the same
/quote

This brings up an interesting topic Aswad, not to hijack yours but perhaps for another time or a seperate discussion.  It seems ideal to me, too, to have an FC and a slave, but do other free women feel the same?  To the free women in relationships: have slaves enhanced your relationship or caused problems or both? lol. I see an ideal where you both have arelationship with a man, one in service one in companionship, that works because each of you has his satisfaction as the ultimate goal?

Pondering...
Y

_____________________________

If you think something is too good to be true, it probably is.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 9:34:39 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Saw this and thought it was interesting

 http://www.votechooser.com/
 Try it and see what you think about each canidate and see who mostrepresents your view. 

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 9:38:52 AM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		ygraine:

I live in a relationship with a Gorean Man and his slave. She has both enhanced our relationship and created problems. But I think that is natural. No path in life is all sunshine and roses unless you are using realllllllllly good drugs and have limitless amounts of money to support the habit. As you say I come from the perspective that I want him to be as happy as possible and he wants the same for me.

SD

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to ygraine)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 9:49:13 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

ygraine:

I live in a relationship with a Gorean Man and his slave. She has both enhanced our relationship and created problems. But I think that is natural. No path in life is all sunshine and roses unless you are using realllllllllly good drugs and have limitless amounts of money to support the habit. As you say I come from the perspective that I want him to be as happy as possible and he wants the same for me.

SD


Hi, SD-
 
IMO, the highlighted sentence is of critical imprt in any realationship, provided the parties want it to go long term.  Without both the blue and the red, I don't see this as possible, unless there are some unhealthy dynamics involved.  I would say, however, that "happy" may not be the best word.  "Fulfilled", "peaceful", "general contentment" come to mind as being good ones.  "Happy" is a quixotic bird at best.
 
Regards-
Grace

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: FW Dialogue - 1/29/2008 12:16:57 PM   
Terrah


Posts: 372
Joined: 7/5/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Orion quoted: In the past I have had relationships with free and independent females, and they ended in failure. Western society seems to place a lot of expectations on how they should act, and this learned behavior often causes problems with dominant males.

Now I am not accusing you of anything here, but don't relationships depend on communication and understanding on both sides? I mean you are saying here they ended in failure, am I to assume by that, only a slave or for that matter your slave can get along, or are you saying you only want a slave because of this? I do not understand and am looking for clarification only. Being free or not should not make the difference should it? And for that matter Western culture? Can only truly blame it on that alone if your girl is from the same culture? I don't know this is why I am asking.

quote:

My girl speaks honestly to me, and sometimes disagrees with me, but she does so in a respectful and as pleasing manner as she can. So the premise that Men want a slave so that no one disagrees with them, is bullshit and avoiding issues.

I completely agree, as stated above, what is the real issue there?

quote:

When a Man says some of the real reasons, they deny it and point to something being wrong in the Man, which is also bullshit because the whole finger pointing starts with a Free Woman making a defensive comment about some Men choosing slaves over a Free Companion.

I have never thought about why a man chooses a slave over a Fw, or for that matter should there be an issue with it, I have always thought a man would choose the woman right for him, noted the woman, be her slave or free, not because of her status, now that would be horrible for both.

quote:

Some Free Women have not shed the manipulative Western woman thinking that society has nurtured into them, and it is apparent in some of their comments that have a dual purpose, get their point across and incite an emotional reaction.

I do not understand the first part of this, the Western woman thinking society thing, but I am thinking of me alone, whereas you are making a blanket statement about Western culture all together.. I need clarification on that one too.. sorry don't mean to question your motives for writing, just didn't understand it very well.

The last part "in some comments to have a dual purpose, get their point across and incite an emotional reaction:" Well yes, of course there's a dual purpose if you look closely enough that happens with men as well, to get a reaction, hence the thread about the K people in the UK, and the ongoing comments by another person who is inciting reactions by his comments. All people are capable of that, I don't think it's restricted to Fw. I call it drama queen syndrome, but everyone is capable of it. Women often also do and say things out of emotion, whereas men do not always do that. A basic difference in men v women the human nature I believe.

I don't think that gender plays a part as much as the individual attitude each of us have on any given day. I think our own emotional state plays a huge part in what we are thinking on any day. Some days are better than others comes to mind. While we are all emotional creatures, some show more so than others, definitely women show more emotion than men. I also believe that a personj's maturity has something to do with it as well. Older but wiser? In some cases this is true, while that is not meant to be a blanket statement about age vs maturity. When it comes down to it there are many factors that make a huge difference if a person is saying something because they are stressed or happy, sad etc, the emotional state determines a great deal in all people in how they react to something or someone.

I wish you well,

Terrah






_____________________________

"Courage is being scared to death and saddling up anyhow." (John Wayne)

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 12:39:26 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Hey grace

Your absolutely right. I did *struggle* with the sentence you highlighted trying to choose the right way to say what I wanted. I even deleted several before I posted. But content fulfilled peaceful all those things for me are important factors. I suppose I see it as part of what I can give him.  I know that if he didnt have a slave he would still be who he is because being Gorean doesnt have much to do with owe a slave. Though part of who he is is expressed through that ownership and thats not something I can do for him other than to engage in a open relationship.  I am secure that he would be happy fullfilled and so forth in our marriage without it so I see it as way he can be more rather than it making me less.

SD

< Message edited by Sylverdawn -- 1/29/2008 12:40:25 PM >

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 1:37:31 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Hey grace

Your absolutely right. I did *struggle* with the sentence you highlighted trying to choose the right way to say what I wanted. I even deleted several before I posted. But content fulfilled peaceful all those things for me are important factors. I suppose I see it as part of what I can give him.  I know that if he didnt have a slave he would still be who he is because being Gorean doesnt have much to do with owe a slave.
So true.
 
quote:

  Though part of who he is is expressed through that ownership and thats not something I can do for him other than to engage in a open relationship. 
Just out of curiosity...Would he do the same for you, be it a slave, a lover, a career change, or a hobby?  "Open relationship" covers a lot of territory, and not all open relationships are the same.  Some are rather one sided, while others are not.  If the questions is too nosey, feel free to ignore it.
 
quote:

I am secure that he would be happy fullfilled and so forth in our marriage without it so I see it as way he can be more rather than it making me less.
I think that is a wonderful way to put it, and illustrates well the fact that such variations, openess, and deviation from the western norm can definitely be an assett to a healthy relationship.  If the foundational relationship isn't sound, however, it can cause a lot of problems.
 
Regards-
Grace

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 1:46:17 PM   
Sylverdawn


Posts: 1123
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear Grace:

Yes to answer your curiousity.. it two sided. Ive had even had a boy when he was girl less. We have moved for both careers and we stay now because this area is best for me. His current girl has been with him going on five years. I would  say that it is always a work in progress but we set up foundational boundries in the beginning and those have helped guide the development. It has not always been easy but it has always been worthwhile.

SD

_____________________________

“When women are depressed, they eat or go shopping. Men invade another country. It's a whole different way of thinking.” Elyane Boosler

Being a women is hard work Maya Angelou

(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 1:56:15 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

Dear Grace:

Yes to answer your curiousity.. it two sided. Ive had even had a boy when he was girl less. We have moved for both careers and we stay now because this area is best for me. His current girl has been with him going on five years. I would  say that it is always a work in progress but we set up foundational boundries in the beginning and those have helped guide the development. It has not always been easy but it has always been worthwhile.

SD


That is, IMO, nothing less than awsome, SD. 
 
The highlighted sentence pretty well sums up the whole of good relationships, regardless of what type they are, doesn't it?  Heaven knows I have a couple incredible friendships that I can't imagine waking up to find no longer there.  Both of them have, at times, been extremely difficult for a brief span.
 
Grace

(in reply to Sylverdawn)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: FW Dialogue - 1/29/2008 5:45:52 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terrah



quote:

Orion quoted: In the past I have had relationships with free and independent females, and they ended in failure. Western society seems to place a lot of expectations on how they should act, and this learned behavior often causes problems with dominant males.

Now I am not accusing you of anything here, but don't relationships depend on communication and understanding on both sides? I mean you are saying here they ended in failure, am I to assume by that, only a slave or for that matter your slave can get along, or are you saying you only want a slave because of this? I do not understand and am looking for clarification only. Being free or not should not make the difference should it? And for that matter Western culture? Can only truly blame it on that alone if your girl is from the same culture? I don't know this is why I am asking.


Never said it was not due to communication, that is what you have put in. That type of relationship, that has nagging, bitching, manipulation, and the idea of equality, is not one I wish to pursue ever again. Females in my life are to be pleasing, and they are able disagree and get their points across without the in your face shit I see some females exhibit.

quote:


quote:

My girl speaks honestly to me, and sometimes disagrees with me, but she does so in a respectful and as pleasing manner as she can. So the premise that Men want a slave so that no one disagrees with them, is bullshit and avoiding issues.

I completely agree, as stated above, what is the real issue there?

quote:

When a Man says some of the real reasons, they deny it and point to something being wrong in the Man, which is also bullshit because the whole finger pointing starts with a Free Woman making a defensive comment about some Men choosing slaves over a Free Companion.

I have never thought about why a man chooses a slave over a Fw, or for that matter should there be an issue with it, I have always thought a man would choose the woman right for him, noted the woman, be her slave or free, not because of her status, now that would be horrible for both.


I agree. There have been general comments in the past few months, made by others, that indicate they know why a Man chooses a slave over a Free Woman. I see those types of comments as defensive in nature.

quote:


quote:

Some Free Women have not shed the manipulative Western woman thinking that society has nurtured into them, and it is apparent in some of their comments that have a dual purpose, get their point across and incite an emotional reaction.

I do not understand the first part of this, the Western woman thinking society thing, but I am thinking of me alone, whereas you are making a blanket statement about Western culture all together.. I need clarification on that one too.. sorry don't mean to question your motives for writing, just didn't understand it very well.


The Western idea that a Woman must be independent to be strong and equal, often fosters behavior of rebellion for no other reason than to dissent.

quote:


The last part "in some comments to have a dual purpose, get their point across and incite an emotional reaction:" Well yes, of course there's a dual purpose if you look closely enough that happens with men as well, to get a reaction, hence the thread about the K people in the UK, and the ongoing comments by another person who is inciting reactions by his comments. All people are capable of that, I don't think it's restricted to Fw. I call it drama queen syndrome, but everyone is capable of it. Women often also do and say things out of emotion, whereas men do not always do that. A basic difference in men v women the human nature I believe.


Never said that others do not do it, I was asked about Free Women, so I answered about Free Women.

quote:


I don't think that gender plays a part as much as the individual attitude each of us have on any given day. I think our own emotional state plays a huge part in what we are thinking on any day. Some days are better than others comes to mind. While we are all emotional creatures, some show more so than others, definitely women show more emotion than men. I also believe that a personj's maturity has something to do with it as well. Older but wiser? In some cases this is true, while that is not meant to be a blanket statement about age vs maturity. When it comes down to it there are many factors that make a huge difference if a person is saying something because they are stressed or happy, sad etc, the emotional state determines a great deal in all people in how they react to something or someone.

I wish you well,

Terrah



If you do not believe that gender plays a part in it, then you should look at the studies on how Men and Women think differently, and how different hormones affect that thinking.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to Terrah)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: FW Dialogue - 1/29/2008 6:53:12 PM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		Good evening, Orion -

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Never said it was not due to communication, that is what you have put in. That type of relationship, that has nagging, bitching, manipulation, and the idea of equality, is not one I wish to pursue ever again. Females in my life are to be pleasing, and they are able disagree and get their points across without the in your face shit I see some females exhibit.


Are you stating that you believe that nagging, bitching, manipulation are in the same league with wanting to be an equitable partner in a relationship?  Or that desiring an equitable relationship breeds nagging, bitching, and manipulation?  Or something else?

quote:



The Western idea that a Woman must be independent to be strong and equal, often fosters behavior of rebellion for no other reason than to dissent.



I would suggest to you that being strong and equal is something a woman can be, regardless of how independent or dependent she may be, and has to do exclusively with the character and merit of the individual.  Further, being independent, strong, and equal does not necessarily foster "rebellion for no other reason than to dissent".  That is something born of weakness, not strength.
 
Regards-
Grace


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: FW Dialogue - 1/29/2008 7:11:20 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Orion,

quote:

That type of relationship, that has nagging, bitching, manipulation, and the idea of equality, is not one I wish to pursue ever again.


Understandable enough. That said, it certainly need not be an inherent property of a free companionship. Among my various other spare time activities, I've played at the relationship councelling bit, having pocketed a few hard-earned lessons about making one work over the years and being able to apply my engineering skills to people. That has given me the opportunity to step in as a third party and reduce the problems in relationships where neither party was even all that interested in making it work in the first place. And I've seen more than a few actually work the way they're supposed to.

In most cases, a relationship needs a captain to sail smoothly, yes.

But it needn't be a slave ship for it to be so.

quote:

Females in my life are to be pleasing, and they are able disagree and get their points across without the in your face shit I see some females exhibit.


In my experience, most females do want to be pleasing... in fact, sometimes, that's exactly the problem. Freeing them from the leash of social mores (possibly using slavery as the means to achieve that goal) is one of the themes in the books, and one that a Free Man can often attend to, having gone through the same process himself. To inspire others to excellence is a noble and rewarding thing, no?

quote:

I agree. There have been general comments in the past few months, made by others, that indicate they know why a Man chooses a slave over a Free Woman. I see those types of comments as defensive in nature.


There's a billion reasons, most of them eminently valid.
To be quite blunt, you come across as defensive yourself, here.
I'm hoping that isn't the case, and giving you the benefit of the doubt.

quote:

The Western idea that a Woman must be independent to be strong and equal, often fosters behavior of rebellion for no other reason than to dissent.


Yes, there is a tendency to impart a vague, unfocused sort of "girl power" thing.
That is not to say that it's an affliction from which all women suffer.
Nor that it's hard to strip it, or harness it constructively.

quote:

If you do not believe that gender plays a part in it, then you should look at the studies on how Men and Women think differently, and how different hormones affect that thinking.


There are some fundamental differences, clearly. And some of those are indeed nature, rather than nurture. But bear in mind that most studies do not attempt to distinguish all that clearly between the two. Neural pathways are not fixed until the mid-thirties, and undergo a lot of adaptation in the mean time, which obscures most attempts at distinguishing. Also, there are a lot of inheritance pathways that aren't strictly genetic in nature. From what I've read, which is no small amount, the differences between individuals are greater than the differences between genders. The notable exceptions have no bearing on relationships.

We're living by a philosophy and ethic that is alien to the prevailing culture of our environment, yes?
That calls for creating our own space, and tells us that process will not be trivial.
Is there any reason to assume it doesn't involve those we care for?

Personally, I try to bring a little bit more of it to this world every day; and that includes women who are part of my life.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: FW Dialog - 1/29/2008 7:49:26 PM   
Maahsatti


Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
Status: offline 		Hi TM4Y,

  Indeed, we have established a mutual respect for each other, in our communications with one another on this board, thru agreements and disagreements.Our personal messages to each other have only served to strengthen that respect.
I came to and use online communications to speak to like minded people about Gorean philos and from that has come some decent friendships and friendships in the works.
Before I came to CM though I had already established some wonderful friendships, that extend offline. Asside from those people, I have not yet met any one from CM. It is my hope however, to some time soon meet people from CM and see if a solid friendship grows from there.
Though in all honesty, there are only a handful of people I would like to meet offline from CM and I believe they already know who they are.
*smiles kindly*

Take care,
Babs

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to Totalmaster4you)
Profile   Post #: 160
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