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RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life


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RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 9/6/2005 4:34:50 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

There has been a long term debate on Gorean boards on and off for years as to whether or not practicing BDSM goes against our general principles. Some believe it does though the jury is still out for a general concessus)


Well, that is basically a debate between those who want to redefine what "Gorean" means so that it includes them and their friends, and those who think that is a bad idea. I have seen people argue for years that being Gorean is more or less synonymous with being a stoic. That the only thing necessary to being Gorean is steadfastly upholding a set of manly virtues. I have also seen it argued that you aren't really a Gorean without slaves. Neither is so.

I don't think that anyone who has read the Gor books could claim with a straight face that Norman's vision of Goreans didn't include the notion that they recognized and embraced dominance and submission as essential, natural, human sexuality. It is as axiomatic to a Gorean as the "cinderella story" is in modern western culture. It also can't be argued that Goreans, as Norman envisioned Goreans, would have any hesitation about acting on their understanding of what is natural.

A lot depends too, on what you consider to be "practicing BDSM". BDSM is a big pansexual umbrella that includes a lot of stuff. I think that a lot of it could be considered counter to "being Gorean" because it's symptomatic of sublimation. Natural drives are repressed, and so reappear as fetishes (sexual attachments to non-sexual items and situations). If someone is trying to argue that expressions of sexual dominance and submission are counter to our ways, however, they have either never read the books, or they are trying to sell you something.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/6/2005 4:55:08 PM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to nenakajira)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 9/6/2005 4:39:00 PM   
miikaawaadizi


Posts: 134
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: flaire
(aren't you a lovely looking thing!)


edana is terminally cute :P

~miika
proud collared and marked property

May you be in Heaven half an hour before the devil knows you're dead.


(in reply to flaire)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 9/6/2005 4:58:29 PM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I do not find pain arousing. I think it's the act of submitting to it. He is my Master and sometimes for his pleasure he will flog me. Pain is relative. Being thrashed with a lovely suede flogger can hardly compare to a broken arm.


hello and welcome to the message boards flaire.

I agree with you. In my view the submission is the reaction to a catalyst. that catalyst being a mans dominance. his real physical, and emotional hold on you.

as my master stated earlier on this thread... this is the bondage we live in. i believe that kneeling to the whip is simply another bond that holds us.

i know there is no out for me, i submit because i have no choice.

this man, my owner, is bigger, stronger, smarter than i... he is my natural master, a man whom if i met on the street i would become flushed and my body would respond as only a female can. what we are trained to do in collar, is to admit those most beautiful and pure feelings freely, openly, unashamed, and wantonly.

why?

how do you think that makes a man feel? hmm... like a Man.

*smiles at you*

edana



(in reply to flaire)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 9/7/2005 12:54:52 AM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline
quote:

maybe this is just me, but pain is pain, and no matter the reason, i am not all that fond of it.


i do not know why i find pain, though pain to a certin degree arousing, i think it is of the same reason some like high heels or get turned on by brunettes or whatever it may be, it is a fetish. But it is also a powerful tool, for me acepting pain, even pain that is more than i like, is a way to subit, and that in itself becomes arousing. There are levels of pain, think of it like this, it go frowm werry mild to byond, there are two tresholds, one is where you begin to register somthing as painful, after all, the feeling from pinching yourself lightly is pain, but it can hardly be considerd painful, this is your pain treshold, over this, you feel things as painful. Now for me, sensations slightly over my pain treshold can be plesurable in itself, it is the same reasuon why many pepole poke at bruises, a light spakning, the slight pain i usualy feel whit anal sex, all of this is at this level, this is all whitin the easy to handel chategory, it do not bring you to tears, it simply get the chemicals in the body working, and for me the whole experience is werry exiting. Then if pain continue to grow it will become more and more dificult to handel, and more painful, unthil you reatch the second treshold, your pain tolerance. The pain tolerance treshold is where the pain has grown to a level where you can no longer handel it, it is horrible, ofcourse it can continue to grow byond this, but now it is byond what you can take. i find going higher on the pain scale than i like, nearing my pain tolerance level becouse my Dom wants it to be an werry interesting experience, it make me feel werry submissive, and we also wish to go over that treshold a few times. But it is not for everyone, and that is just fine.

(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 9/14/2005 5:13:32 PM   
LadyofLight


Posts: 60
Status: offline 		methinks that the knowing I had displeased him would bother me far worse than physical pain.

_____________________________

Life is all about ass:
you're either covering it,
laughing it off,
kicking it,
kissing it,
busting it,
trying to get a piece of it,
or behaving like one.

(in reply to flaire)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 9/14/2005 5:18:57 PM   
LadyofLight


Posts: 60
Status: offline
quote:

is bigger, stronger, smarter than i... he is my natural master, a man whom if i met on the street i would become flushed and my body would respond as only a female can.


This is how I feel when I correspond w/ a certain Dom I have been considering submission to............such an animal magnitism,like nothing I have ever experienced before.Just his presence is intoxicating and I have yet to meet w/ him.

_____________________________

Life is all about ass:
you're either covering it,
laughing it off,
kicking it,
kissing it,
busting it,
trying to get a piece of it,
or behaving like one.

(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/5/2007 12:55:34 PM   
FatesTemptation


Posts: 21
Joined: 8/6/2006
Status: offline
"The Gorean Master though strict is seldom cruel.  The girl knows, if she is pleasing him, her lot will be an easy one..  She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty,for the psychological environment that tend to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor."

OUTLAWS OF GOR, PG. 53  
 
Examples in Norman's works shows slaves were coffeled, chained to a slave ring, whipped, bound in binding fibers, kept in a sirik, chained to walls, trussed up over saddles, subjected to slave goads, branded, restrained, kenneled, gagged, had their legs chained to ensure a certain gait, etc.  Is that Bondage in Gor...or is that Gorean bondage? Either way, semantics aside... a girl was shown, and felt her slavery often more than just wearing a collar or saying "I am owned" and it depended on the individual slaver, Jarl,  Master or the specific need or preference.   

(in reply to flaire)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/5/2007 1:06:01 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37420
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		First off and generally speaking it seems true that if you sit by the river long enough you will see the body of your enemy floating by....and this thread is rather old and dredged up and floating again.

Now:
"The Gorean Master though strict is seldom cruel.  The girl knows, if she is pleasing him, her lot will be an easy one..  She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty,for the psychological environment that tend to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor."

This quote resonates with me, it is the same as my mindset... and it is a common theme in Viking slaveholding history....One reason being that slaves were hard gotten over many nautical miles, much cost in men and material  and lived closely intertwined with the lives and luggage of their holders, as slaves indeed, but part of the family, more or less............
 
Lots more reasons for that, but.... If a slave needed constant beating or correction, I could just get a plant to decorate my life, or a carton of eggs.
 
Hup the Fool


_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to FatesTemptation)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/5/2007 1:50:01 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings flaire,

My girl will find this post funny. Before I collared her she said "A soft flogging can be very arousing." When we met she saw that among other things I had a soft suede flogger. During a time when she first came to understand that I own her and a fiery, rebellous side came out, she screamed out and afterwards asked what I had hit her with that had hurt so bad, I pointed to the soft suede flogger. Knowing how and where to strike to cause pain, can turn most any implement into a device for punishment.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: flaire

Dear Edana

I do not find pain arousing. I think it's the act of submitting to it. He is my Master and sometimes for his pleasure he will flog me. Pain is relative. Being thrashed with a lovely suede flogger can hardly compare to a broken arm.

My Master rarely punishes me. Not because I'm the perfect example of the female slave (heavens, no) but because I find his disappointment so painful.

I think that is more powerful than any amount of physical pain (though a cane can make me think twice).

f x

(aren't you a lovely looking thing!)


_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to flaire)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/6/2007 3:35:20 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greeting Master.

quote:

"The Gorean Master though strict is seldom cruel.  The girl knows, if she is pleasing him, her lot will be an easy one..  She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty,for the psychological environment that tend to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor."


i am not so sure. In the last book a girl is held of a cliff, and told by her Master he could drop her any time. White that is not physical torture it is definitly emotional cruelty. What BDSM pepole would call a mindfuck.

May i wih you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/6/2007 7:54:57 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings nephandi,

Does one example make the rule? It seems people want to put an absolute on things, when there may not be one. In the situation you describe the Man could have been using an extreme example to show that he can do what he wishes with his property. You, nor I, know his intent. You say that BDSM people call that a mind fuck, well people do not define an individual and maybe this is part of what seperates Gor from other things, most Gorean Men I know answer only to themselves and usually care not what others think. On Gor life was very harsh, and there are many examples of it throughout the series. Earth does not even compare to that harshness in most areas. It is because of this that the bar for what humans may say is cruel, is possibly not cruel from a Gorean point. Again, it takes intent to be cruel, how most humans see it, but cruel can also mean stern, strict, unrelenting and severe. I think it is the latter that is often confused with enjoying the pain of others.

Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greeting Master.

quote:

"The Gorean Master though strict is seldom cruel.  The girl knows, if she is pleasing him, her lot will be an easy one..  She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty,for the psychological environment that tend to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor."


i am not so sure. In the last book a girl is held of a cliff, and told by her Master he could drop her any time. White that is not physical torture it is definitly emotional cruelty. What BDSM pepole would call a mindfuck.

May i wih you well.



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to nephandi)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/6/2007 10:11:20 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings Master.

i remember reeding a book once of a horse, a stablehand did not brush him down and left him whit a cold blanket and he almost died, suffering terribly. The stable hand did not intend to be cruel, he was ignorant, beliving the cold would be good for the horse in the heat of summer. But to the horse it was cruelty.

But if one see intent to be what make one cruel, how do that make for exsample what BDSM pepole do cruelty. Most never intend to be cruel, they are doing what they do for the enyoyment of both the top and the bottom. And in the same line of thinking Master. If i beg my Master for a chocholate that taste wonderful, but make me sick becouse i am alargic to it. Are my Master kind or cruel in giving it to me?

i think cruelty is a complex topic, and there are few contrete definitions. i do not see it as cruel when my Master have a sene whit me, i think a bit of erotic pain is fun, it is hot, we both enyoy it, so how is it cruel? However holding a helpless slave over a cliff threthening to drop her is to me mindless cruelty, and somthing that would have made me rebell for sure, while for that Master, perhaps my Master whipping me for fun would be cruelty.

my point i think Master is that, yes the Gor books says the Gorean Master is seldom cruel, but that do not need to exlude certin activities, what i take that to mean is that he is seldom cruel to be cruel. But what is cruel vary from person to person. For that matter i think it is rather cruel to to kidnap somone from their home and family for profit. That is cruelty to me, but not to the Goreans in the books.

May i wish you well.


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/6/2007 10:34:25 PM   
patina


Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline 		 
quote:



i know there is no out for me, i submit because i have no choice.

this man, my owner, is bigger, stronger, smarter than i... he is my natural master, a man whom if i met on the street i would become flushed and my body would respond as only a female can. what we are trained to do in collar, is to admit those most beautiful and pure feelings freely, openly, unashamed, and wantonly.

edana



Greetings to All:

Greetings Edna:


You have said it so much more eliquently than I could have.  I am so looking forward to sharing those feelings with a master. As I have said before I started out on the BDSM side but became discouraged by the lack of honor there.  I started checking out the Gorean side, I have found more here that I feel comfrotable with than I thought I would.    I thank all of You for welcoming me and helping me to learn. 

Peace be to all

patina

_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/7/2007 8:24:04 AM   
edana


Posts: 594
Joined: 10/13/2004
Status: offline 		greetings patina,

my Master is threatening to change my name to edna... ugh!  

Its edana. which means "firey" in gaelic.   

*smiles



_____________________________

In service,

edana

"Discipline turns talent into ability"

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/7/2007 12:25:33 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4212
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Los Angeles, CA
Status: offline 		I think the quote regarding sadism is often misconstrued to exclude 'S&M' practices. 

Anyone ever play 'red hands?'  It's a child's game, where you hold your palms up, the other person holds theirs down under yours.  That person tries to slap your hands.  If you get slapped, you have to keep your hands there.  If you pull away without being touched, your hands go on bottom and theirs on top.  The object of the game is to inflict pain on your opponent.  It's inherently sadistic (as are many children's games.)  It can also be a lot of fun.

Leonidas is quite right; people like to redefine terms to suit their tastes, so they may be included.  The flip side, though, is that people also like to redefine things to exclude others; no small number of Goreans positively loathe the BDSM community, thus anyone who expresses an interest in a munch obviously can't be Gorean.

My understanding of Gor, is that it's a philosophy that is firmly grounded in who we are.  BDSM, on the other hand, is a loose term that generally implies 'what we do.'  One can be Gorean, but one cannot be Bondage, Discipline, Sadism, or Masochism.  One simply practices these activities if they wish.  Goreans can play tennis if they wish.  They can engage in kinky sex games if they wish.  As Leonidas mentioned, though, a good number of activities involved in BDSM are contrary to Gorean ideology because those activities promote the repression of one's 'true' nature, leading to fetishizing. 

As a sadist, and not a Gorean, I would suggest that sadism usually comes in two forms.  Personally, I enjoy inflicting pain on my partner as a means of combining powerful sensations to increase the intensity of a situation.  I don't enjoy it with an unwilling victim.  The other form is the sadist who enjoys the application of pain for it's own sake; much like one would collect stamps or butterflies.  The victim's misery is experienced in a somewhat detached way; the cruelty involved is impersonal cruelty.  I am of the opinion that this is the form that Norman was referring to.

Stephan


_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/9/2007 12:01:37 AM   
patina


Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: edana

greetings patina,

my Master is threatening to change my name to edna... ugh!  

Its edana. which means "firey" in gaelic.   

*smiles




Greetings edana:

I humbly beg you and your Masters pardon for my error. 
I am dyslexic and tend to have problems with switching or even getting all the letters correct, when copying them.  I also can't spell worth crap either, LOL. 

I love gaelic thigs.  I have some welsh blood in me but not much.  I wish I knew more about those ancestors. I do not know if envy is considered bad among the Goreans, but I wish I had a Master as knowledgeable and strong as you do. 

Hopefully the Dom I am talking with will turn out to be a great Master and I will be collared by Him. 

Peace be to all

patina



_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

(in reply to edana)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Bondage Practice in Gorean Life - 7/9/2007 12:33:54 AM   
patina


Posts: 493
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: no
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters

I actually have a question about the sadism part.  I have never been able to figure out where a person gets pleasure, causing pain to another person.  How can you derive joy from that persons pain.  Knowing that she or he does not like what is being done to them.  To me this is a very cold souless act. 

Please, understand maybe because i was physically and mentally abused as a child and have had other's try to force me to accept pain from them that I look at it so negative.  I mean no disrespect to You Master Stephan if You do not force a girl to accept Your sadistic acts then You are not a cold person with no soul. 

As usual I will ask to be forgiven if I have offended anyone.  That is not my purpose.  

Peace be to All

patina



_____________________________

a diamond in the rough

(in reply to patina)
Profile   Post #: 37
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