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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:15:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

It's not just anti-feminists. I speak from personal experience that I have been yelled at by "feminists" for my life choices because they were "wrong". The feminist movement itself has some followers that give it a very bad name. I've seen women complain because a three pack of condoms costs less than a 12 pack of tampons and this is clearly male oppression.

I can beat this one...

Up here, a feminist tried to charge retailers with discrimination because pink mobile phones cost more than factory-default color. Never mind that there's an actual labor cost involved, or that the retailers have to pay for the differently colored covers, or that not all women prefer pink (my girl would smack me in the head with it if I gave her a pink phone, I suspect), or even that the assumption that pink is intrinsic to women is pretty much a gender stereotype in its own right.

WTF? It's a pink phone. And personally, I have a vagina and I friggin' hate pink most of the time. It doesn't even have anything to do with gender - I just really like Disney's Sleeping Beauty and hate that she is always put in the pink dress instead of the blue one she wore for most of the movie.

I'm half tempted to hunt down my books from my feminism class to cite the part about the "women should rule the world" school of feminist thought.

_____________________________

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It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:16:17 PM

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I agree.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:16:25 PM

Aynne

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Feminist, liberal, submissive They are not mutually exclusive not should they be. I am all three and fully aware of the issue some weaker men may have with those terms.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:23:53 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CuriousLord

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

That would make feminism, female supremacists, and academia, three things you have just demonstrated great ignorance of, and yet you pontificate upon them using phonied up assertions.

Particularly in colleges, feminist theory is looked at as an opportunity to do new work without the distortions brought about from centuries of male dominated influence.

Try researching the breakthoughs in medicine, criminology, econometircs, and other areas as a result of feminist thought before you shoot your mouth off using Jerry Springer level definitions and rhetoric again.

Right. Ignorance. Because you know more about college students' views today more than I or others may age who have posted.

You completely missed my point about how things are today in this rash spectacle. Please, think this out.

The fact that you think current academic attitudes are the same as college students spouting lines from the popular media of 40 years ago proves my point.

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:26:19 PM

GoddessDustyGold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SageFemmexx

I am a feminist because I believe in absolute reproductive rights for women and birth choices without men dictating who, what, when and where. I have given women choices for twenty five years and have advocated against violence against women in childbirth in everything from speaking to women's groups to teaching emergency childbirth in EMS classes.

What is violence against women in childbirth? I bet people never realized episiotomies, forceps deliveries, forced c-sections, rupturing membranes and induced labors were violations against a woman's body.
They are also traumatic and viewed as violence by midwives and the women that have endured them (if they remember them after the drug induced haze).

How often do women think about laws that affect their bodies from having to have their husband's permission to have their tubes tied to parents giving permission for teens to have the pill? In this backwards state, women are refused choices, rights and information on a daily basis by people who think they are doing the "right" thing.

I think the term feminist has evolved to mean a multitude of things and protecting our bodies is just part of the definition.

Blessings,
Sage

I need to address this. Because I just wrote a long post that addresses the fact that I don't consider Myself a feminist, per se.
*Sigh*
When I became pregnant (quite happily) I made it My business to educate Myself about the various aspects of childbirth. What happens and why, etc. Both of My UMS were born completely naturally and My husband was present. I made it My personal responsibility to choose the doctor who was in tune with My views and I also had to trust that he would not do something because it was more convenient for him. It was in My best interest to have a small epesiotomy and I understood why. I did not have to have forceps deliveries and I did not require a C-sections. I could request drugs at any point I needed tham, but I did not and I did fine. I did have an emergency after the first delivery that required a complete anathesia and an emergency D&C along with a blood transfusion. Should I have fought My doctor and questioned him? He gave a quick explanation and I trusted him based upon the relationship and I came though fine. I could have died. I was more than respected during the process and I would have been pretty damn mad if I had not been. Passing laws does not change attitudes. It only forces responsibility for things that are sometimes not in the patient's best interest while letting the patient sit back and not have to make any decisions. Now desicions have been made for her, and maybe she wants or needs the epesiotomy and now she can't have it? *Shakes head*....Why, oh why, do people refuse to accept their personal responsibility and want the governemnt to force people to do what is perceived to be right by a few loudmouths?
How many women request C-sections because they do not want to suffer the pangs of labor or it is more convenient for them? On the other hand, My daughter had a shitload of nurses(women) who, after she was induced were compeletely non-supportive of her filed "birth plan" because it was more convenient for them. She did not have a good experience and that broke My heart. It was not a matter of disrspecting her because she was a woman. It was a taking advantage of a woman when she is in a vulnerable position to make it more conveneint for them. And these were women, not men.
We need to take personal rsponsibility for our actions and the potential consequences. We need to be educated and stand firm.
Had I chosen to have My tubes tied, I would never have had to have the permission of My husband. I am shocked to hear this. If a woman is being told that she cannot do this without a spouses permission, then she needs to go elsewhere.
Parents do have a personal responsibility regarding their UM's health. I don't believe that a 14 year old girl should be able to sail into a free clinic and get birth control. Yet they are allowed to, same as boys could walk into a gas station and put a quarter into a machine and push a button to get a condom. We have ages of majority here that are not magical but it is a way of maintaining a basic area of responsibility. It is the parent's responsibility to develop a relationship with their child that allows frank comunication and a support of needs. When My older UM came to Me and told Me she was going to have sex, I wasn';t ahppy. But I took her to the doctor (she was older at that point) and made sure she was okay and then had the appropriate protection. I had to trust that I had raised her to make a reasonable decison at that point in her life, and not necessarily indicate the I approved of the decison but respect that she was smart enough to make it. Very few parents like that, eh?
I can protect my body just fine, thank you. I don't need people telling Me how I should do that and what that means. Because that is what it means to them. Not necessarily what it means to Me.
If you want to say that feminism is a form of education so that women feel confident about learning all aspects of these things and then making their personal decison that is fine. But it is not about forcing all women to have the same attitude, or else they are a lesser woman that you.
No longer bothering to check for My usual dyslexic typos. I am sure you can get the gist of what I am trying to impart.

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 2/3/2008 4:31:34 PM >

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:27:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
The fact that you think current academic attitudes are the same as college students spouting lines from the popular media of 40 years ago proves my point.

The current academic attitudes (as in last semester at a college well known to be liberal) is that there is a group of feminists who want to reverse the old gender roles, have women rule and have men serve. However, this is a loud fringe group that causes more harm than good. The fact that they are a fringe group does not make them nonexistent, and the sooner mainstream feminists realize that this fringe group does exist and does cause problems the better.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:30:03 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

The fact that you think current academic attitudes are the same as college students spouting lines from the popular media of 40 years ago proves my point.

Right, Alumbrado. I'm entirely oblivious to my own peer group but I'm obvliously under the control of media from fourty years ago. Because I just freaking love digging out old movies and haven't ever sat down and talked with the people I live with to talk about how we feel about things.

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:33:26 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Aswad, I hear about these 'extremists' all the time, but I have yet to encounter one in person. And the Eternal knows, I've been around for a bit.

Come for a visit. I'll take you to their office. Yes, office. Barring that, PM my girl; she's more concerrned with that side of things than me. I just settle for having always treated and regarded women in the same way as men, and passing that on to friends and colleagues. Maybe she can dig up an article or video clip link somewhere. I dunno. I only have my first-hand experiences, and second-hand stories from women, to go on.

quote:

So, I have to ask: do you agree with the assertion that feminism will have achieved some of its goals when the majority of the women in power are incapable?

That sentence does not parse for me. Could you rephrase it?

May be a language barrier thing, but it sounded like you suggested that the goal of feminism was to make female leaders incapable.
That doesn't seem to make much sense to me, to make them less than they are, so I must assume I didn't read you correctly.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:35:56 PM

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quote:

Right, Alumbrado. I'm entirely oblivious to my own peer group

Based on the numbers, many of your peer group think that epidemic binge drinking and date rape with or without drugs are an acceptable part of life... and you expect me to believe that is what academia is all about?

Find me any recent peer reviewed article from the disciplines I cited that supports your claim that everyone in academia defines feminism to mean female supremacy...should take you about 10 minutes on your student login..if you are even in college that is.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 2/3/2008 4:36:43 PM >

(in reply to CuriousLord)

RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:37:21 PM

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I'm 35 years old, and I am not a feminist. Why should I be? There's no need. I thank all those women who fought for equal rights when they were needed, and there was certainly a time and a place for it.

But why do I need to be a feminist now? Nothing's stopping us from being anything we want to be. Unequal pay? I don't believe it exists because of a vast conspiracy of good ole boys. The fact is that many families rely upon the man as the primary source of income, and the female's income is secondary; therefore, she is willing to take less money, and BINGO you have suddenly a "women get paid less than men" on average statistic.

I have never once let my gender stop me from dreaming about or doing anything I wanted to do. I never thought to myself "I didn't get this, or I won't get that because I'm a woman." I just reach out and grab whatever I want, and if I don't get it, I don't think the thought would ever cross my mind that I didn't get it because I'm a female. I was raised by "traditional" parents that told me I could do or be anything I wanted. I was encouraged to learn how to cook and wear pretty dresses, and I was right by my dad's side helping him change the oil on the car, or firing a BB gun.

Have I ever been sexually harassed on a job or insulted for being a stay at home mom, or been whistled at when I'm walking down the street, or treated like an idiot in Home Depot? Of course, but it's not really a big deal. I'm a big girl, I can handle it.

My mom and mother-in-law keep reminding me how lucky I am to have such a great husband. I'm a stay at home mom, so naturally, I change most of the diapers, I cook, I do most of the cleaning, but that's mostly my job, just like it's mostly my husband's job to earn money, but I help out a little. Well, here it is Sunday afternoon, and I haven't changed a diaper since Friday around 3:00 pm. My husband cooked dinner last night, he bathed the kids, he filled my car up with gas, and he gets up early with the kids EVERY morning and lets me sleep in. Monday through Friday, he gets up with the kids, feeds them breakfast, gets the 7 year old ready for school, and brings me a cup of coffee in bed. He vacuums the house, washes the floor, does dishes, laundry. picks up clutter in the house...he just does what needs to be done.

I, on the other hand, am quite comfortable with a drill or a circular saw in my hand. I do the drywall repair, I paint the house (interior and exterior) I prune trees, I fertilize the lawn, edge, weed and keep the pests under control, I hang towel racks, build bikes, I landscaped the back yard, amended the soil and spread the gravel and laid the stones, I hang the Christmas lights, I fixed the leak under the sink, applied weather stripping to the door, I tore out the old exhaust hood over the stove and hucked it into the back yard, I took a sledgehammer to the corian counter top and cabinetry in the bathroom...I just do what needs to be done.

I like to think that my husband and I are a modern couple. Do we have "traditional roles"? Yes, but it's not because anyone told us we had to, it's because we chose to. We don't look at jobs that need to be done as "women's work" or "men's work", we just get it done, and whoever is best at something takes that job. Both my brothers cook 95% of the meals in their households, and they also clean, do laundry, change diapers, etc. Most of the guys I know my age can cook, and change diapers, and are involved in running the house- they were taught well by their mothers!

We have two boys. My oldest son LOVES to cook and has never looked at it as something men or women do or do not do. He folds clothes, helps with his little brother, wants to get married some day. I think he'll make someone a fantastic husband some day- look at who he has as a role model! We're teaching him to be proud to be a boy, but also to appreciate girls

Race is also a non-issue in our home. We've never had to preach "equality" because it has never occurred to him that anyone wouldn't be equal. He's never even asked why some people's skin is darker or lighter- his best friend is from India and is very dark-skinned, and he's never even brought it up to us. He doesn't care because we don't care.

Isn't this what we're striving for? Don't we want our kids to see that there are many different people in this world, but that we are all equal? Why bother to point out differences?

The OP asked if we are destined to repeat History. I don't think so. I think if we teach through example, if little girls and boys see women and men of all races as doctors, police officers, truck drivers, Marines, pilots, politicians etc., how would they find any of it strange? All they would see is people doing what needs to be done.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:37:23 PM

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Perhaps everyone should quit getting their knickers in a knot and just be who they are and stop trying to hit the rest of us over the head with the reasons why.

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I love it when someone insults me. That means I don't have to be nice anymore.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:38:25 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

Based on the numbers, many of your peer group think that epidemic binge drinking and date rape with or without drugs are an acceptable part of life... and you expect me to believe that is what academia is all about?

Do you honestly think that those people are here for "academia"?

PS- I'm just left here shaking my head.

< Message edited by CuriousLord -- 2/3/2008 4:46:36 PM >

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:45:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado
The fact that you think current academic attitudes are the same as college students spouting lines from the popular media of 40 years ago proves my point.

The current academic attitudes (as in last semester at a college well known to be liberal) is that there is a group of feminists who want to reverse the old gender roles, have women rule and have men serve. However, this is a loud fringe group that causes more harm than good. The fact that they are a fringe group does not make them nonexistent, and the sooner mainstream feminists realize that this fringe group does exist and does cause problems the better.

We are talking about medical research on the factors in heart attacks and other diseases (long only studied in men, until feminist theory went back and redid the studies with male and female participants), female violent criminals (long held to be practically non-existent) and so forth, not some lecture on popular culture held somewhere on a campus.

That sort of insistence that scholarly pursuits should be impartial and free from sexist bias is the current accepted definition of feminist theory in any serious academic discipline.

Bedroom roleplaying and Archie Bunker diatribes about bra burning are a blast from the past, just like Friedan and Dworkin, and are not the mainstay of feminism now.

And those who try to stir up old TV sitcom cliches to distract from women getting proper medical care and legal consideration are bullshitting when they claim to be for equality.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 2/3/2008 4:56:31 PM >

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:46:05 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Because it's a 'women's cause', it's alright to bash at it, to question it, to make it somehow illegitimate.

You misunderstand me completely.

The word translates very poorly into English, and a more exact translation is actually "the cause of advancing women's affairs."

Bear in mind that I grew up with a female prime minister and a financially independent mother, admiring both; I'm not bashing women.

What I am saying is that, up here, we are only rarely discussing equality or anything of that sort, and when we do, we call it just that. The word feminist, again up here, has come to be redundant, as their goals have become part of our mainstream culture, and are now starting to reach even the upper echelons of business management. Instead, the banner of "kvinnesak" (the word in my native tongue) has been taken up instead, and it's not concerned with equality, but rather with advancing women's affairs, with no scope or stated goal beyond that. There is no mile post at which point women stop being the cause that needs to be furthered. No point where they are equal. No point where we're all simply people, regardless of gender. The stated goal is to advance one gender over the other.

Hope that makes things more clear.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:49:26 PM

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From "Sexism and God-Talk" by Rosemary Radford Ruether on radical feminism, p. 228 (BTW, try to tell me that Ruether hasn't been peer reviewed...):

For many, the logic of this position leads to lesbian separatism. Women can't be liberated from patriachy until they are liberated from men. Women need to see the community of women as their primary base. Women bonding together both in love relationships and for pirmary support, together with their (female?) children, is women's base and identitiy. It is on this base that feminism needs to build an alternative women's world. Women must question not only the idealogies of sexism but of heteroseism, that is, the basic assumption that men and women are naturally attracted to each other sexually and that male-female couples are necessary for human females.

In feminist utopian novels, ranging from Charlotte Perkins Gilman's Herland (1915) toSally Gearhart's Wanderground, we have visions of a world of women liberated from men. Men are seen in these novels as alien to women, as creatures in some way fundamental way inhuman. They are characterized by aggressive sexuality and domineering attitudes towards woman and nature. Theirs is literally a "rape culture." In the feminist utopia, a select community of women have escaped from male control. Key to this is a recovery of love between women and, with it, the ability to reproduce independent of men.

< Message edited by AquaticSub -- 2/3/2008 4:52:00 PM >

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:50:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

It's not just anti-feminists. I speak from personal experience that I have been yelled at by "feminists" for my life choices because they were "wrong". The feminist movement itself has some followers that give it a very bad name. I've seen women complain because a three pack of condoms costs less than a 12 pack of tampons and this is clearly male oppression.

I can beat this one...

Up here, a feminist tried to charge retailers with discrimination because pink mobile phones cost more than factory-default color. Never mind that there's an actual labor cost involved, or that the retailers have to pay for the differently colored covers, or that not all women prefer pink (my girl would smack me in the head with it if I gave her a pink phone, I suspect), or even that the assumption that pink is intrinsic to women is pretty much a gender stereotype in its own right.

WTF? It's a pink phone. And personally, I have a vagina and I friggin' hate pink most of the time. It doesn't even have anything to do with gender - I just really like Disney's Sleeping Beauty and hate that she is always put in the pink dress instead of the blue one she wore for most of the movie.

I'm half tempted to hunt down my books from my feminism class to cite the part about the "women should rule the world" school of feminist thought.

My laptop is pink

. Named frootloop too. I'm a feminist, one of my sisters is a feminist but we believe in different meanings for the word.She is voting for Clinton because she is female.I'm voting for the one I hope will do the best job.Both of us are very very glad that women can vote.Oh and she hates pink.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:55:32 PM

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"Sexism and God-Talk"

Would that be the book from 25 years ago...citing 1915 and 1980 works ? Reuther is a pioneer from exactly the past era I mentioned, and her work has paved the way for today's feminist theory...but it doesn't own or define it.

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:57:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alumbrado

"Sexism and God-Talk"

Would that be the book from 25 years ago...citing 1915 and 1980 works ? Reuther is a pioneer from exactly the past era I mentioned, and her work has paved the way for today's feminist theory...but it doesn't own or define it.

No it doesn't. But feminism is a still a new movement and what was published then still matters now. There is a branch of radical feminism that thinks this way and what she wrote then still applies today. Ignoring that branch of feminism completely invalidates my experiences as a women with radical feminists, which is not what feminism is about.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to Alumbrado)

RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 4:58:01 PM

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I'm a feminist and unashamed to be a feminist, despite the ways that people may try to twist and turn the meaning. Because I think feminism is a very large (and amorphous category) I tend to more specifically describe myself as a Camille Paglia school of thought feminist.

C~

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RE: I am a feminist. - 2/3/2008 5:00:33 PM

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quote:

...Ignoring that branch of feminism completely invalidates my experiences as a women with radical feminists, which is not what feminism is about.

I'm not ignoring them, I'm disagreeing with CL's claim that the college world defines feminism to mean female supremacy.

It would be no different than if he claimed that minority studies today were seen at the college level as guys with Afros wanting to sleep with white chicks... its outdated and incomplete.

Focusing on the bra burning lesbian feminists today undermines those who are trying to get medical and legal research among others, to be free of gender bias...which IMHO is the more important area that should not be invalidated.

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 2/3/2008 5:03:05 PM >

(in reply to AquaticSub)

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