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RE: Voting, question - 2/6/2008 4:40:20 PM

Trevelyan

Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Braveheart6942

quote:

My "why not" is that I do not take unfair advantage of people in business dealings. It is actually part of the Caste Code that I have written for myself. I uphold that code as a matter of honor, and my honor is important to me.

Tal Trevelyan,

I don't believe in taking advantage of people in business dealings.
That is not the analogy, since we are talking about the gov't *insisting*
that your slave has a right to vote, it is like a man *insisting* that
he give you $20 for 10. "Here, I want you to take it... please. Yes,
I know it's too much change, but I have too much change and want
to be rid of some. Take it."

Thus, it is thrust upon you, and you can take it (use the vote) or
give it away (have her not vote).

I didn't say anything at all about taking unfair advantage.. that is
a twisting of the analogy.

I wish you well,
Braveheart

PS... I always tell a clerk when they've given me too much
change. I always hand it back, and I haven't yet had one say,
"It's OK.. keep it." But if they did, and they insisted that I take
it... well.. that was their choice, eh?

Fair enough

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RE: Voting, question - 2/6/2008 7:58:39 PM

Braveheart6942

Posts: 141
Joined: 6/11/2005
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Tal angel,

On this issue, as you have presented it, I would agree with you!

Good perspective.

Cheers,
Braveheart

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Post #: 22

RE: Voting, question - 2/7/2008 3:57:56 AM

kimaya

Posts: 30
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Greetings Masters,
Greetings Mistresses,
Greetings slaves,

Master requires me to vote. He hasn't said if he will require me to vote a certain way, but that is certainly his prerogative.

Well wishes,
kimaya

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Post #: 23

RE: Voting, question - 2/7/2008 7:08:11 AM

Aswad

Posts: 6620
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zarius

If you are a BDSM’er please preface your response acknowledging you are a BDSM’er.

I'm a Gorean. BDSM is a hobby of mine. Take that as you will.

quote:

Do we as Gorean free have the right to tell our slave(s) or Free Companions how to vote.

Yes and no, respectively.

Under normal circumstances, I would suppose the FC would have sufficiently similar views, but being a Free citizen has certain perks.
Also, it might be argued that there should be one vote cast per household, not one per person, but this isn't the thread for that.

quote:

As a Gorean free, would you, or have you told your slave how to vote. If so why?

I haven't. I decline to post the rationale as it might be a TOS violation to do so.
Either way, we both vote for the same party (which, btw, is now forwarding legal poly, apparently).

Health,
al-Aswad.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/7/2008 7:18:04 AM

amelliagrace

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Edited to add that I am:
Just me.
Don't claim the title gorean.
Have bdsm experience.
Am submissive in nature.
Am most definitely Free in spirit and mind.

Excellent question, Zarius. I've enjoyed reading this thread.

My take is that a highly responsible owner will want to develope/increase the value of their property. Discussing politics is one way to do this, unless you prefer to see your property as a door stop without a brain.

I do not own a slave. If I did, I'd discuss the issues and candidates with them, listen to see where they were coming from. If I value their smarts, I might actually learn something. If they don't have much to offer in that area, I would then educate, to raise their value. Bottom line, when all is said and done, I'd instruct them how to vote. Whether they chose to obey or not would be between them and God. If I'm not truly mastering my slave, they won't vote as I instruct, just because "I said so", no matter what I say.

Free companions, on the other hand, have no business whatsoever telling each other how to vote. They do, I believe, have a responsibility to discuss these matters, and particularly to discuss them in light of what is best for their individual home.

Regards-
Grace

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 2/7/2008 7:21:06 AM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/7/2008 7:20:14 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Braveheart6942

So even though "slaves" have "no right to vote," the mainstream society insists that they do, and so he has the option to make his vote doubly efficacious, since if they are so naive as to insist that slaves can vote, then why not use it?

I will yet again agree with Trevelyan, with one minor difference:

If you are living in a country that you have not pledged your allegiance to (for instance due to considering the present government to be illegitimate or the country to be occupied, such that you do not recognize their claim to the territory as valid, while thinking that it may be possible to use their assumptions to bring about a government whose claim to the territory you would recognize as valid; I know a few people who hold this position), or are an outlaw, period, then it's arguably no different than any other strategic deception, as you are permitted to engage in hostile actions against another Home Stone that you aren't pledged to.

Let's take this off-thread if you'd care to reply.

Health,
al-Aswad.

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: Voting, question - 2/7/2008 7:49:50 AM

Sylverdawn

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Its an interesting question. We revoke those the right to vote for those people who give up their freedom willingingly.. ie criminals.. now people dont take that to mean that I equate slaves with criminals I dont. But, slaves knowinly act to restrict their freedom. In many ways they shed the request roles, acts and responsiblities that most of us face in everyday life. Voting is one of those both a priviledge of the free and a responsibility of being free. So perhaps they should not vote or as an extension of their owner act as their owner directs as they do with all other things in life. On the other hand slavery today is consensual and as such should it extend to such a basic tenent as the right to vote which we all hold so dear. Most slaves work, pay taxes, contribute to their communites. They meet the requirements to cast their vote and therefore affect their work environment, how much tax they pay and the path that their communites take.

What happens if the slave finds out after taking a collar that her Master is a staunch convservative and she has liberal beliefs can he force her to vote contrary to her conscience. How would that effect their dynamic? It's an interesting question.

SD

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RE: Voting, question - 2/7/2008 7:52:34 AM

Braveheart6942

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Tal Aswad,

I wasn't thinking of the issue along the lines you took it,
but I don't disagree with you on your point, so I'm not
sure why you thought I might need to discuss it further.

My position is that a master does have a right to tell
his slave how to vote, and as another said, what she
does is between her and God. There will always be
that potential gap between instruction and obedience.

I wish you well,
Braveheart

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RE: Voting, question - 2/7/2008 7:57:17 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

If you accept the conventional Gorean point of view, the slave is an animal, not a person, and therefore has no right to vote.

Tal Trevelyan,

The "conventional Gorean point of view" (outside the law) is that both men and women are animals.

Is there a human animal beneath the conditioned ideologies? ...it lies within us, in the chemistry of every living cell in our bodies. In denying it we, truly, deny only ourselves. In hating it, we hate our own hearts and our own blood. We are not so terrible, really. It is only that we are men and women and not something else. -Rogue

It is true that a slave has no legal standing as a person under Gorean law, but that is a different matter. Here, she does. If she's not allowed to vote, it's because I said so -- not because she's "an animal, not a person". Which, incidentally, is doubtless how the law on Gor got created in the first place. Free Men said so.

A slave girl's legal status on Gor is that of an animal; she is domestic livestock, property. But she is not an "animal" in any other sense than we all are.

I presume, of course, that I am only clarifying your statement.

IWYW,

Kirata

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/7/2008 8:02:06 PM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 2:21:02 AM

ygraine

Posts: 674
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Hello Kirata!
It is good to see Your Wryness back on the boards!
YBF,
Y

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 3:53:38 AM

ElizabethAnne

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Heya Kirata!

Welcome back from where ever you've been! Good to see you.

Take care,

Liz

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 4:39:32 AM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
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quote:

Most slaves work, pay taxes, contribute to their communites. They meet the requirements to cast their vote and therefore affect their work environment, how much tax they pay and the path that their communites take

Greetings Sylerdawn,

My take on what you have said here is pretty simple with regard to women who are slaves to Gorean Men, they do the above based on the permission and desire and determination of their Masters, not based on their own self-determination. Therefore, it still is a concept that lies within the control of their life by their Master and therefore, they should recognize that as part of their slavery and realize that their "decision" of what things should be in their life even through politics is no longer a concept where their desire is more important or more necessary than the Man who governs them.

I personally do not see a need for a slave to involve herself in politics or the politicians, there is no need because she is not the governing aspect in her life and therefore, she has no determination of "what she is" politically anymore, she is simply a slave of a Gorean Man and therefore, as a slave, her conscious should not be effected if she is used to benefit her Master and be used to give him 2 votes in an important decision for HIS life and how he governs those in his life.

To me a Man could not "force" a slave to vote against her conscious for if how she votes based on his determination is going against her conscious to me she is being too concerned over retaining her freedom of choice and governing herself instead of recognizing what being a slave to a Man means, she no longer has a choice as to how her life is governed while being a slave. And thereby the only force that is occuring is her own denial of her actuality in being a slave to a Man and thereby the force is because of her lack of acceptance not her Master "forcing" her to do something she had a right too do.

Consensual or not, when a woman becomes a slave to a Man, she needs to understand the basic premise of being a slave to a Man means she no longer is a governing concept in her own life, her Master now is. Her freedom of choice and her ability to cast anything of her own accord is now limited to a decision of another, her Master, and if he chooses to utilize her to benefit him, then that is what she is used for -- not her own desires or determination of how things should be run or done.

If a woman wishes to retain her ability to determine how the government she exists in is run, then she really should think clearly before becoming a slave to a Man, for when she is a slave to a Man her life is now governed by him and she doesn't know what his decisions or plans for her future actually are nor is she entitled to kno to make an informed decision to vote for someone without his determination of who she should vote for and therefore, all she needs to do in this aspect is obey.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 2/8/2008 4:50:03 AM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 5:12:52 AM

sabba

Posts: 396
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn

What happens if the slave finds out after taking a collar that her Master is a staunch convservative and she has liberal beliefs can he force her to vote contrary to her conscience. How would that effect their dynamic? It's an interesting question.

SD

Greetings Mistress Sylverdawn;

This is really something that should be known and discussed before the girl ever begs a collar. If someone is serious enough about another person to give ownership of themselves to Him, take the time and actually get to know the person before begging that collar. One may not know every single way the Master or slave "would" vote on every issue, but the social, fiscal and other differences between the parties is so great, one would have to have shut off part of their brain to not see them.

After that, it's the Master's decision. If He chooses to allow her to vote as she wishes, wonderful. If He instructs, so be it. sabba really liked kisshou's thought....she trusts Him enough to manage her life, so of course, His decision wouldn't be questioned as to how to run the country, county, whatever.

As for changing the dynamic? Not really any different than following another instruction the girl wouldn't follow had it been her decision.

well wishes,
sabba

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 5:13:24 AM

barelynangel

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Greetings,

In reading many of the replies, i was wondering those who believe in such a need, will explain more of their mindset when they say that they feel a slave should be educated with regard to the politicians and politics and why they need to understand why their Master is choosing to vote for one or another and how a slave's thinking and perception with regard to governing would be something she needs to have incite on? Would not a Man or a Free in general seek out his peers to discuss politics because they are his peers with regard to perceptions and understanding? I can see basic discussions just to discuss, but i am confused as to why a slave being educated with regards to politics over which a slave no longer has a choice about be a concept of knowledge she needs to be aware of or concerned with?

I understand the concept of intelligence and events knowledge, but it seems many believe slaves should be educated in politics and i am lost as to why, beyond the generic because i like it that way. When a slave will simply be obeying a directive does she need to understand why she is doing so? And if so, does this mean a Man must also explain his plans for her to her understanding and acceptance? Is there more than that with which a Man would find himself needing his slave's insight with regards to how he governs and chooses in regard to benefit his governing his life?

I know slaves are beyond intelligent usually and will form their own opinions being exposed to politics, but do the Men find it necessary that they understand the whole to vote as HE wishes them too, or to make an informed decision based on his determinations of his life and governing hers. I mean is she going to be debating with Free Men their choices of their politics based on her perceptions as a slave being held in slavery and governed by a peer of theirs?

Slaves, just out of curiousity, would you be personally affronted if your Master did not choose to discuss politics and this sort of thing with you as to his determinations and want your insight based on your perceptions of everything because he has determined you will vote as he chooses and therefore, he sees no need to discuss same with a slave?

Thanks for any deeper explanation on this,

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 2/8/2008 5:26:43 AM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 6:38:40 AM

BeingChewsie

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quote:

Slaves, just out of curiousity, would you be personally affronted if your Master did not choose to discuss politics and this sort of thing with you as to his determinations and want your insight based on your perceptions of everything because he has determined you will vote as he chooses and therefore, he sees no need to discuss same with a slave?

No, wouldn't bother me a bit if he never mentioned politics or the economy or any number of topics. I like being carefree and not having to worry about anything so if he never discussed them with me, I could be blissfully ignorant(as someone on the other side alluded to that I am) and not be bothered at all. I don't get a vote on what gets discussed in his house though. So this week at least there is a lot of political talk..I imagine it will be this way until next November.

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 2/8/2008 6:41:30 AM >

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 8:35:48 AM

amelliagrace

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Here is my take on this, angel, FWIW.

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Greetings,

In reading many of the replies, i was wondering those who believe in such a need, will explain more of their mindset when they say that they feel a slave should be educated with regard to the politicians and politics and why they need to understand why their Master is choosing to vote for one or another and how a slave's thinking and perception with regard to governing would be something she needs to have incite on? Would not a Man or a Free in general seek out his peers to discuss politics because they are his peers with regard to perceptions and understanding? I can see basic discussions just to discuss, but i am confused as to why a slave being educated with regards to politics over which a slave no longer has a choice about be a concept of knowledge she needs to be aware of or concerned with?

The answers to this are determined by the value system and paradigm of the Free in question. If the owner values political accumen and intellectual discourse with a slave, then they tend to want this area of the slaves person developed. If they are of the mind that a slave is simply a beast used for labor and sensual gratification, then educating their slave would be irrelevent to them. In the case of a Free seeking to foster independence and free spirit within the slave with an eye to one day launching them on their own as a free, such education, discourse, and developement would be more of a priority.

I saw each of those situations illustrated before my eyes, and illustrated fairly well, with regard to several individuals in my father's life, as I grew up.

quote:

I understand the concept of intelligence and events knowledge, but it seems many believe slaves should be educated in politics and i am lost as to why, beyond the generic because i like it that way.

Political knowledge can be seen as part and parcel of both intelligence and events knowledge.

quote:

When a slave will simply be obeying a directive does she need to understand why she is doing so?

A couple cases spring readily to memory. Both were "nilla" couples, though if ever there was slavery on earth it was in those families. In the one case, I've heard with my own ears the man say, "I chose to have children with her, and I'm not here 24 hrs a day. She can't teach them to suit me if she doesn' understand why she's teaching what she's teaching. If she doesn't believe it and understand it herself, it's a fuckin' mess." The other guy? "Hell no, no woman is teaching my kids how to think and vote. Not in my house! I'll tell those kids what I think and why, and she best be smiling and telling them to ask daddy, even if she sounds like a broken record."

quote:

And if so, does this mean a Man must also explain his plans for her to her understanding and acceptance?

Only if he wants her to be aware of his viewpoint on something, which is certainly up to the free in question, whether they be man or woman. Acceptance has nothing to do with it, really. The slave need not agree with, or accept the viewpoine of the master as valid, good, or right, in order to abide by it.

quote:

Is there more than that with which a Man would find himself needing his slave's insight with regards to how he governs and chooses in regard to benefit his governing his life?

"Needing" is a far different thing from "desiring", and in this instance, the point is of critical importance. Look at it this way... If a man has a slave who happens to have a PhD in chemistry, and he's looking to adjust an old family formula for boat cleaner, he might well consult her so that he doesn't create toxic fumes in the process. Does he "need' to ask her? No, he could go ask another free if he so chose. Why not avail himself, however, of that which he ownes? He is certainly not obligated to follow her suggestions.

If a Free couple have a slave who also happens to be an RN, would it not be prudent to consult said property when one of the ums has a temp of 102.8, or just swallowed an undesireable substance, or just fell out of a tree and is unconscious?

quote:

I know slaves are beyond intelligent usually and will form their own opinions being exposed to politics, but do the Men find it necessary that they understand the whole to vote as HE wishes them too, or to make an informed decision based on his determinations of his life and governing hers. I mean is she going to be debating with Free Men their choices of their politics based on her perceptions as a slave being held in slavery and governed by a peer of theirs?

Depends upon the Man or Woman. No, she isn't likely to be debating with free at large. But I happen to know Free Men who definitely enjoy such debate with those who are theirs, for several reasons. One of them is that some people are actually aware that a perspective from another person reduces "blind spots", some because such debate with a person they preceive to be infrerior to them in a particular area is "amusing". Whether those Free happen to be Gorean or not is always debatable. I can only express my views in this forum as based on my own thoughts, feelings, and experienced, and that which I've observed first hand.

Did not the men of the books sometimes value conversatin with their slaves?

Regards-
Grace

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 10:28:07 AM

Musicmystery

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

If you accept the conventional Gorean point of view, the slave is an animal, not a person, and therefore has no right to vote.

Tal Trevelyan,

The "conventional Gorean point of view" (outside the law) is that both men and women are animals.

Is there a human animal beneath the conditioned ideologies? ...it lies within us, in the chemistry of every living cell in our bodies. In denying it we, truly, deny only ourselves. In hating it, we hate our own hearts and our own blood. We are not so terrible, really. It is only that we are men and women and not something else. -Rogue

It is true that a slave has no legal standing as a person under Gorean law, but that is a different matter. Here, she does. If she's not allowed to vote, it's because I said so -- not because she's "an animal, not a person". Which, incidentally, is doubtless how the law on Gor got created in the first place. Free Men said so.

A slave girl's legal status on Gor is that of an animal; she is domestic livestock, property. But she is not an "animal" in any other sense than we all are.

I presume, of course, that I am only clarifying your statement.

IWYW,

Kirata

I'm delighted to see a return to reasoned, informed posts about what is and isn't Gorean.

Thank you.

Tim

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Post #: 37

RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 4:09:33 PM

barelynangel

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HI Grace,

Yes, i know everything you are saying, as i said i understand the "want to" concept with regard to a Man (which is basically what you are saying in many words here with different examples-- because a Man wants too - is what it comes down too and that i know well) involving his slave in political information, having lived as a slave lol i understnad a Man's personal style and preference. To me the ask "daddy" would be an appropriate response for a slave to a Gorean man. A Gorean Man will be teaching his children the perception of a Free person, a slave rarely if not never as a slave will understand a Free Man's perspective. Which is what i am getting at. She can understand the basics, but how can a woman, as a slave to a Man, ever fully understand why he is thinking a certain way especially when she as a slave is not privy to all of his plans?

To me i fail to see why a woman who is a slave to a Man needs to understand his political agenda to go an vote for who he wishes her too. She doesn't, all she needs to do is obey. She is a slave and there is a mindset of understanding she usually has that his agenda is not something she NEEDS to know to obey, especially when it comes to his governing his home. That is the difference between a wife raising children and a woman who is a slave.

I don't think you are getting what i am asking, Grace, but i appreciate your attempt to explain. Though my former Master didn't educate me in politics for his delight in my prose on same, as he fully believed some things just were not the business of slaves, grins, i doubt he suffered from my ignorance as my intelligence tended to reach beyond a single subject and this didn't mean he simply saw me as a beast of labor or sensual pleasure because he felt politics is a Free's world not a slaves.

Again, Grace due to your last line, conversation is a widespread concept, my intelligence does not hinge on how politically educated i am, and in fact even if i was (which my work life was in the political arena so i was exposed and being intelligent i picked up some things along the way) that doesn't mean HE felt it was an appropriate subject for me -- a slave -- to broach or participate in with Gorean Free about THEIR views and my views. I could listen in all i wanted, but i was a slave, my views with regard to politics was not necessary simply because i was a slave -- i would vote as he wished it to be and therefore, my views were moot.

chuckles, however, this lack of being allowed to participate in a conversation of Free because i was a slave, didn't exhaust my intelligence, and i have yet to be seen as a woman slave or not who is not intelligent. Why would a Man educate a slave -- i am speaking of a concept here and how a slave lives as well as a slave's mindset of perception -- with regards to politics when he is not going to allow her to choose who she votes for.

Grace, i hear what you are saying, i just don't think you are viewing the concept (based on your examples) with regard to a slave to a Gorean Man. You speak of PhD's lol and RN's all of which who have specific focuses and more than likely was not educated as such to have intelligent discourse as you have implied, and i doubt a Man would send his slave to school to have intellectual discourse with her about politics unless he was really a die hard political activist and he would be utilizing her beyond his own pleasure.

I am speaking simply of the average Man who owns a slave and has decided she would not be choosing who to vote for but would obey him in his choice. I think you have extended this beyond what it was in an effort to make it possible, but i am not speaking of PhD's of politics nor am i speaking of using his slave as a lobbyist. But just an average joe who is a Gorean Man who owns a slave. You are speaking of based on your questions within your examples, having a uber educated slave in which a Man would have a well rounded slave then, more than likely educated to that level for a different purpose, and not a Man educating a slave in chemistry just so he can ask her a question with regard to some chemical, nor do most Men educate their slaves as RN's so he would have someone to have an intellectual discourse with regard to a child's fever and having someone who can diagnosis it just sitting around.

Perhaps my question needs a little work, i know what i am asking but i think its more based on my understanding more so than a general question, but what you have given me is what i already knew lol because he said so, and i was asking it within a different view.

Thanks for trying,

angel

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Post #: 38

RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 5:23:19 PM

barelynangel

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Damn, i got here to late to edit what i said above... So basically disregard the above because i think Grace that you and i are speaking about two different concepts.

Okay, i believe when you speak about what you are you are speaking about the issues, that a Man may enjoy speaking about the issues and running thoughts back and forth on the issues.

What i am speaking about, and i may be misusing the word politics for a very tunnelvisioned concept but when i say politics, i am speaking specifically of a Man's decision on who will be speaking for him in the levels higher than his own individualness.

To me, if a Man tells his slave you will be voting for so and so and you will not be allowed to choose who will speak for me, to me that's where politics ends for her. Because to me, a slave does not have the perception of a FM's view of his world to explain to a Man how his choice to speak for him may need consideration. This is what i mean that a Man would more than likely speak to his peers for such a consideration and how a slave would NOT be among Men explaining to them her views and perception of their choices on who they decide to speak for them.

Issues, which is what i believe you are speaking about, to me, are diffferent, to me issues are not politics per se`, choices of who to speak for you is politics. Speaking about issues is simply a Man speaking to his girl about happenings in the newspaper and things in the world and yes, he would enjoy same. Issues are simply opinions on happenings and concepts and understandings, its not a slave attempting to understand the choice of a Man who owns her. To me, she does not need to since he has said, you are voting as i choose. Her perceptions of her world will never equal that of his as a FM and his perception of his world.

Hope this clears more what i was specifically speaking about.

angel

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

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RE: Voting, question - 2/8/2008 5:33:42 PM

amelliagrace

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Thanks, angel. That did clear up somethings for about what angle your thinking is from. And yes, that being the case, there is some difference in what we were each addressing.

I'm taking some time to think over your last post.

Regards-
Grace

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