Voting, question (Full Version)

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Zarius -> Voting, question (2/6/2008 8:02:30 AM)

A question for the Goreans. If you are a BDSM’er please preface your response acknowledging you are a BDSM’er.  This is applies to M/s relationships, not D/s.
 
Do we as Gorean free have the right to tell our slave(s) or Free Companions how to vote.  As a Gorean free, would you, or have you told your slave how to vote. If so why?  As a slave have you been told how to vote? Did you obey, and why.



Shawn1066 -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 8:06:13 AM)

I am a BDSM, but I am also in a Mistress/slave relationship...  So...  Here goes.

My Owner does not feel the need to influence or control my personal politics.  If she wanted to, and it was beyond discussion, then I would do as she says...because it is her right.

DV's Fox



smilezz -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 8:16:12 AM)

Good morning Sir...

We practice BD/SM and live a M/s life. Thorns has always told me that He would never tell me how to vote, that is a personal thing. However, i am well aware that at a drop of a hat, He could change that standing rule at any time. Would i obey? without hesitation.

Happy Wednesday!!

~smilezz~



xBullx -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 8:50:18 AM)

Hello Zarius,

I would imagine the term Free Companion speaks well enough on its own as to how she should vote. I discuss politics Natalie, but she is free to excercise such things on her own accord.

A slave is a slave is a slave however. I do believe if she were allowed to vote it would be with permission, so she would also require permission to vote however the owner deemed, either as he said or as he might allow her to choose. Either way, one is left to question the degree of mastery over the property in an M/s relationship if she is excersizing freedom of choice. Just my take.

Live well,

Bull



Trevelyan -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 9:12:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zarius

A question for the Goreans. If you are a BDSM’er please preface your response acknowledging you are a BDSM’er.  This is applies to M/s relationships, not D/s.
 
Do we as Gorean free have the right to tell our slave(s) or Free Companions how to vote.  As a Gorean free, would you, or have you told your slave how to vote. If so why?  As a slave have you been told how to vote? Did you obey, and why.


Tal Zarius,

A free Gorean does not have the right to tell a Free Companion how to vote.  The Companion is free and can vote as they see fit.

I don't think that the slave of a Gorean should vote period.  If you accept the conventional Gorean point of view, the slave is an animal, not a person, and therefore has no right to vote. 

If a "Gorean" feels that the slave is enough of a person to vote, then they ought to let the slave vote as they feel.

I wish you well,

Trevelyan




Braveheart6942 -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 9:13:18 AM)

quote:

Do we as Gorean free have the right to tell our slave(s) or Free Companions how to vote. As a Gorean free, would you, or have you told your slave how to vote. If so why?


Tal Zarius,

I could tell my slave how to vote, but I don't really have that much
to say about who the PM of Canada is.

I wish you well,
Braveheart



Terrah -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 9:14:15 AM)

Tal Zarius,

Interesting question. I would vote the way Tavares wanted me to should he tell me to do so as he is my FC, but I also have to remark I trust his judgments explicitly. He isn't going to tell me how to vote, he has stated that already, but we also talk about the candidates and issues they support or how they are going to do things. Neither of us find any one candidate worth a hoot, the only one we liked dropped out. So now I am gathering up more information on the available ones and thanks to Grace who gave us all the websites to them... well we are reevaluating again. Mickey Mouse comes to mind once again as time draws closer to Nov.   :)

However the local issues here that come up for a vote this year are worth taking a stab at..  we try to be up on things locally as there are some real idiots in office around here. So knowing what we are truly voting on is helpful as they try to twist this and that to make it something it's not. Ya know how that goes.

I wish you well,

Terrah



Braveheart6942 -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 9:20:50 AM)

quote:

I don't think that the slave of a Gorean should vote period. If you accept the conventional Gorean point of view, the slave is an animal, not a person, and therefore has no right to vote.

If a "Gorean" feels that the slave is enough of a person to vote, then they ought to let the slave vote as they feel.


Tal Trevelyan,

But a slave is a master's property, and he has a right to maximize the
use of his property toward his own goals, does he not? So even though
"slaves" have "no right to vote," the mainstream society insists that they
do, and so he has the option to make his vote doubly efficacious, since
if they are so naive as to insist that slaves can vote, then why not use it?

It's like if a person is gullible enough to give you $20 change for a $10 bill,
then why not?

I wish you well,
Braveheart




charlotte12 -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 10:27:05 AM)

Greetings,

Master does not call himself Gorean but he certainly holds this girl in an M/s dynamic.  If he wanted to tell his slave who to vote for it is certainly his right as her owner and obedience would not be in question.  He personally chooses not to exercise this right, perhaps he will elaborate as to why.

respectfully,

charlotte



Trevelyan -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 10:29:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Braveheart6942

quote:

I don't think that the slave of a Gorean should vote period. If you accept the conventional Gorean point of view, the slave is an animal, not a person, and therefore has no right to vote.

If a "Gorean" feels that the slave is enough of a person to vote, then they ought to let the slave vote as they feel.


Tal Trevelyan,

But a slave is a master's property, and he has a right to maximize the
use of his property toward his own goals, does he not? So even though
"slaves" have "no right to vote," the mainstream society insists that they
do, and so he has the option to make his vote doubly efficacious, since
if they are so naive as to insist that slaves can vote, then why not use it?

It's like if a person is gullible enough to give you $20 change for a $10 bill,
then why not?

I wish you well,
Braveheart




Braveheart,

The virtue of integrity has shown up on both versions of your "What is required to be a Gorean?" poll.  I assume it has some meaning and importance to you.

How does the highlighted quote square with your notion of integrity?

My "why not" is that I do not take unfair advantage of people in business dealings.  It is actually part of the Caste Code that I have written for myself.  I uphold that code as a matter of honor, and my honor is important to me.

Regarding the voting issue, that ultimately deals with my allegiance to my "Home Stone" and to my concept of the order of nature.  I personally would not compromise one to take unfair advantage in the other.  Again, a matter of honor.

Trevelyan



ElizabethAnne -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 11:06:29 AM)

Hello Trevelyan,

Indeed, too many times I have stopped a clerk from giving me too much change back.  In addition to a matter of honor, it's a matter of doing the right thing.

Thanks for pointing this out.

I wish you well,

Liz



BeingChewsie -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 11:22:28 AM)

I'm non-gorean, owned, I'm not allowed to vote. I'm a die hard conservative and I am allowed to discuss and debate politics with him as we have been doing for the past 24 hours :)...but he doesn't believe I have any right to vote. He believes voting is a right and privilege of people who are willing to do what it takes to be free.



daddysprop247 -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 11:33:46 AM)

i am a slave, not BDSM or gorean, just good old-fashioned M/s, Man/woman. anywho, in any election which my Master cares about, he orders me to vote and of course i am to vote as he directs. as his slave there is no aspect in life with which i may exercise "free choice." political debate, or debate of any kind honestly, is not something he cares to have with his property, so if i disagree with him on such a subject he'd prefer that i keep it to myself. for instance, he would never ask my feelings or thoughts on a political candidate, as those things are irrelevant in this house. but because i am his property, for all intents and purposes he gets two votes.



kisshou -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 11:34:37 AM)

Greetings,

besides the Presidential elections we have voting on all sorts of amendments down here in Florida including the Save Our Homes one that just passed. Fairly soon the city of Riviera Beach will be voting on an ordinance to ban the wearing of baggy pants.

Master PO gives me an order to go vote and who to vote for in the same way he commands me to any other task. If I wanted to go vote I would beg for the privilege of being allowed to do so just as I would beg for anything else I wanted.

He is more of the 'if I wanted you to have an opinion I would give you one'

Since I trust him to lead me I certainly trust him to pick who should lead our nation :)
well wishes
kisshou



Zarius -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 11:47:40 AM)

Tal all

Wow this is refreshing, I was speaking with my girl last night, she belongs to another group which is primarily for slaves. In it this same question was asked, of the group. Needless to say, the concensus is, on that list is that NO master has the right to revoke a slave's right to vote.  In that list, only two stated that their master either chose to exercise his right of ownership, or agreed with the question.

I found it amazing that the negativity by those subs's on that list would react to the question and argue that no master had that right.  As  some of you can guess, I about choked hearing this. Like Bull and others, I choose to either allow my girl to vote my way, or not at all. I find this highly refreshing that many here view it this way.

I guess this is one way to seperate the players from those that live this life seriously. I will note that the other group my girl was on is not a gorean group.

I wish you all well.

Zarius
Proud owner of talina and jessi



angharad -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 12:23:27 PM)

Greetings Master

I will not offer an opinion on whether a slave votes to her own preference or her Master's as that is a subject for the Free.

I would like, however, to speak my mind on the issue of slaves shouldnt vote at all, because they are slaves.

My opinion is simple.  There is more to our world than our gorean society.  There are many out there who want to take away what we, and our forefathers and mothers have worked hard to achieve.  Many of our ancestors died and many of our own are dying and fighting right now to keep our right to freedom, including the right to surrender that freedom and live according to an ideal, not shared by the mainstream.  I therefore think a duty of responsiblity to vote wisely and actively to keep our country free lies with every adult of voting age.  No doubt in my mind.  I value the sacrifice made by troops and veterans of the present day, and one look at history will show the bloody civil wars and instances where you had to take up your sword to protect yours or it will be taken from you. Voting is as close as we get to that sword.  Not voting is a dishonour to those who have put their life work into creating our countries.  Slave or not, unless we all wish to be shackled under a new collar not of our chosing, all should be responsible and vote.

On a side note, I am likely to have opinions about who would be good for a top job, my Master would ask if he wanted my opinion, he certainly has lot of opinions on politics! but I would naturally be looking to him for advice, guidance and information before I voted.  To chose differently to my Master would be an astonishing thing indeed.

With respect

angharad




Braveheart6942 -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 12:41:53 PM)

quote:

My "why not" is that I do not take unfair advantage of people in business dealings. It is actually part of the Caste Code that I have written for myself. I uphold that code as a matter of honor, and my honor is important to me.


Tal Trevelyan,

I don't believe in taking advantage of people in business dealings.
That is not the analogy, since we are talking about the gov't *insisting*
that your slave has a right to vote, it is like a man *insisting* that
he give you $20 for 10. "Here, I want you to take it... please. Yes,
I know it's too much change, but I have too much change and want
to be rid of some. Take it."

Thus, it is thrust upon you, and you can take it (use the vote) or
give it away (have her not vote).

I didn't say anything at all about taking unfair advantage.. that is
a twisting of the analogy.

I wish you well,
Braveheart

PS... I always tell a clerk when they've given me too much
change. I always hand it back, and I haven't yet had one say,
"It's OK.. keep it." But if they did, and they insisted that I take
it... well.. that was their choice, eh?



Musicmystery -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 3:51:40 PM)

[edited to add--this is FR]

One thing that strikes me about the many discussions regarding slaves is a sometimes almost stunningly naive view.

Tell your slave anything you want. The ballots are secret. Yeah, your slave would never go against you, just as she never tries to manipulate you in the slightest.

Same with "I have my slave's password info," as if she couldn't simply open a second account. Duh.

In my case, though, the girl isn't a citizen, so the issue is personally moot.

Tim



kisshou -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 4:19:20 PM)

Greetings Master Tim,

I loved your post!

I remember standing inside the voting thing thinking , gosh he would really never know. Then this feeling comes over me and I just know deep inside that I can not go against his wishes. I hope by my previous post I was not implying I was robot like, it is not that at all. I am just mastered by a Gorean man.

well wishes
kisshou



barelynangel -> RE: Voting, question (2/6/2008 4:38:26 PM)

Greetings,

To me, if a Man is the one ruling a household, it is to his benefit to have his household vote in the way he believes it will most benefit his home.  To me, a slave should always vote the way of her Master and i don't say this because i don't think she is intelligent, i don't think she is to stupid to decide but because she does not govern her life and therefore, politically she should be utilized to do what is in the best interest of the Master because she is to be used to benefit his home.  If she utilizes her own opinions of how A, B, C, should work, as a slave she is not always informed of the plans of her master and his plans for his home and thereby by voting without such knowledge (which she is not entitled too), she may very well be a deciding factor that goes against a concept that would benefit her Master's plans for his home.    To me a slave who chooses to manipulate her permission to vote because she thinks voting as her Master does instead of her own opinion, may not fully understand 1) she as a slave lives within the concept of curiosity is unbecoming a kajira, and therefore, may harm her Master instead of benefit him by going against his wishes based on a future goal he has for his home, and 2) doesn't quite get the loss of autonomy and self-governing concept of her slavery and instead sees her being used as an extension of her Master's goals as a negative instead of a positive.

While a FC is Free, i feel she should do the same or at least fully and completely consider whether or not her determination of her political choice would benefit the Man who rules the home in which she claims to support by her being companioned to him.  To me, its too important a right to cancel out two votes that could very well together benefit the home based on the Man's decisions for it.  Does he have a right to demand it of his FC, i will say yes he does for again the simple premise that he is the deciding factor of things for the home and his beliefs should be priority in something that could very well cancel out his vote if a FC decides her beliefs are more important than his and by voting as she does she in fact cancels each other out. 

I think a Man would be unwise to revoke his slave's right to vote simply because to me its an extra vote for his beliefs to maybe be the ruling power. 

I may not fully understand the FC concept so i could be over thinking it, but as for a slave -- she would vote as her MAster does for he will be utilizing his slave to benefit him not counter himself.  The way i see it a Man with a slave gets two votes lol.

angel



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