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RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard


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RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 7:28:58 AM   
backseatbebe


Posts: 195
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		ok this will no doubtly sound very unsymapathic
but really why do these women allow themselves to be so naive
ok bad mistakes happen, but something of this magnatude usually has warning signs
and really how can you not find a way out
just because youre a slave doesnt mean you cant be intelligent

its like the woman who stayed with her "Master" who kidnapped her for 7 years because she was afraid of the slave police!!!

(in reply to Vanatru)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 7:39:06 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37420
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Do you have a link or address to any of these slaves?  There may be one or two of use to me.

Knute

_____________________________

Kam Fong as Chin Ho

For in the final analysis, our most basic common link, is that we all inhabit this small planet, we all breathe the same air, we all cherish our children's futures, and we are all mortal. JFK



(in reply to backseatbebe)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 7:46:49 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5310
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: backseatbebe

ok this will no doubtly sound very unsymapathic
but really why do these women allow themselves to be so naive
ok bad mistakes happen, but something of this magnatude usually has warning signs
and really how can you not find a way out
just because youre a slave doesnt mean you cant be intelligent

its like the woman who stayed with her "Master" who kidnapped her for 7 years because she was afraid of the slave police!!!
 How can you be so naive?Naive as to believe that some are literally without choice, some are physically taken from their homes, some are sold by their parents. Some think they are going to a genuine job and end up in prostitution. 
"Because their immigration is often illegal -- and because some percentage of the women choose to work as prostitutes -- statistics are difficult to assess. But the United Nations estimates that 4 million people throughout the world are trafficked each year -- forced through lies and coercion to work against their will in many types of servitude. The International Organization for Migration has said that as many as 500,000 women are annually trafficked into Western Europe alone. "www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/recordDetail?accno=ED271650 www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8289068/
www.brama.com/issues/havrylenko.html
archive.salon.com/books/it/2000/06/15/white_slaves/index.html
www.columbia.edu/cu/thefed/v3/volume17/7/whiteslavery.shtml
www.fpp.co.uk/online/05/03/Israel_slavetrade.html muse.jhu.edu/journals/journal_of_the_history_of_sexuality/v011/11.4baer.html -

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to backseatbebe)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 7:51:36 AM   
backseatbebe


Posts: 195
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		so youre telling me theres never a way out?
and their fear isnt what keeps them there?

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 7:59:56 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hello bebe,

Through this entire thread I've been pondering the notion of women walking the high bridges of some foriegn city. To understand my point , reading of the books is important.

And no I see nothing unsympathetic; pity and sympathy wasted emotions. I'll lend compassion to the defensless, it is part of my warior nature. However, I will have to assess the context of abuse and cruelty. Some tend to distort such terminoligy to support their own agenda.

Bull

quote:

ORIGINAL: backseatbebe

ok this will no doubtly sound very unsymapathic
but really why do these women allow themselves to be so naive
ok bad mistakes happen, but something of this magnatude usually has warning signs
and really how can you not find a way out
just because youre a slave doesnt mean you cant be intelligent

its like the woman who stayed with her "Master" who kidnapped her for 7 years because she was afraid of the slave police!!!


_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to backseatbebe)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 8:36:32 AM   
camille65


Posts: 5310
Joined: 7/11/2007
From: Austin Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: backseatbebe

so youre telling me theres never a way out?
and their fear isnt what keeps them there?
 Please take the time to read the links I found for you before you decide that for every person taken in illegal slavery has the options you think they do.Some are literally kept in rooms that are locked, some have their passports burned. Many do not speak the language of the country they have been taken to. Many feel they cannot return home as used or tainted women.So take a few minutes and do a bit of research please. If you don't trust the links I posted then do your own Googling and see what you come up with because I do know that some links can feel or be biased.

_____________________________


~Love your life! (It is the only one you'll get).




(in reply to backseatbebe)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 9:13:39 AM   
backseatbebe


Posts: 195
Joined: 4/12/2006
Status: offline 		ive been to conutires where i dont speak the same language and dont feel helpless or a victim
i am definatly "tainted"!!! but that doesnt stop me from making where i am home

im very aware there are extreme circumstances
but wasnt their own desperations a reason why a lot of them are there
depending on others (aka strangers) to make their lives better by just getting on a boat?!!?

and on a note by bull... i have to say its egos and mentality of the abusers that raise my alarms more than the "misfortune" (an understandment) of these poor girls

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 9:17:27 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: backseatbebe

so youre telling me theres never a way out?
and their fear isnt what keeps them there?


Death is virtually always a viable escape. None of the people who buy slaves are likely to put in the effort of keeping you alive if you choose freedom over life. If you don't, you've basically made your choice: you've traded essential liberty for temporal safety. Some would say that means you deserve neither. Goreans might leave it at being entitled to neither.

Hell, even in a straitjacket, strapped to a bed, with an iron lung doing your breathing for you, a probe for nutritiion and fluid, you can still push your blood pressure through the roof often enough, and for long enough, to slowly deteriorate your physical condition to the point where your heart gives in. And while you're physically a captive, who's really deciding what they get out of you?

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to backseatbebe)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 9:21:22 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		-fast reply-

I have a nagging question that would seem to me of a Gorean nature....

What happened to the males within the Home Stone these destitute females hence came?  Why were many of these girls compelled to seek greener pasture? Were not these stalwart males able to muster, defend or better inform their charge as to impending gloom and doom? Why were these women so willing to subjugate themselves to this dangerous unknown? What of the families or follow citizens that market away such dishearted or beguiled females? Is it a simple matter of economics and survival?

Is it all that wrong to be a pet owner? What of the loved lap dogs scattered throughout the world? Are they seen in the same light? Surely Michael Vick would have been a bad owner of anything....

Some things to ponder I reckon.

Bull 

OK, OK that was more than one question; sue me......

< Message edited by xBullx -- 2/11/2008 9:24:30 AM >

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to camille65)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 9:32:05 AM   
Jahnaca


Posts: 726
Joined: 8/28/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings

In reading this thread along with a couple more I have become keenly aware that many Goreans view concepts in a macrocosm of reality.  It is easy to do.  When we look at the series and it’s portrayal of concepts like slavery it becomes morally palatable to accept.  I mean let’s face it, what female didn’t become “sweet, loving, sexual, fulfilled and happy” in the chains of slavery.  This obviously is a rose coloured outlook on an institution that historically never lived up to this ideal.  Yet many say we have to accept it.  Accept which aspect, the truly idealistic or the less then ideal reality that slavery historically has given us?  That becomes the moral issue.

When faced with this issue we often turn around and say, well since where I live makes it “illegal” I just have up hold that point of view.  We then back peddle towards consensual and all that other good stuff we happen to practice, as if to brush aside the harsh realities.   Yet still believing it’s ok on one hand, the other, well isn’t so convinced.  We also hide behind TOS rules, legality and many other shields that actually prevent serious contemplation over what on the surface seems so cut and dry.  Though it isn’t, it can’t be as seen by even this small discussion.

I have to admit, our version of slavery is quite a pretty picture.  We have morally sanitized it to the point of it not being recognized historically.  Going to toss a flip in here, often we see statements like “what would (insert book character here) say about...”  What if we said, ‘what would (insert historical slave here) say about our institution’?  Would they recognize it, sympathize with you, even understand it?  In my own mind I see inserted historical slave looking at me funny and saying “ya right.”  It is because of this I find it hard to reconcile reality with our pretty little picture.  I even have begun to find it difficult to use the word “slave” to define what we have without questioning my own integrity.  I find it even more morally reprehensible to talk about historical/real slaves and liken them to what we have, on any level.  Even if we add all those qualifiers we generally toss about.  Simply put there is no relation to full scale exploitation of humans with consensual submission.

By now the “but Goreans didn’t” comes to mind.  Have you all been reading the same series?  Goreans did exploit, were cruel, did lie and cheat and all that other stuff we deny.  It’s in the series, tiny segments of historical/human reality caught between diatribes of the pretty stuff.  The reason these things exist is because despite culture humans are human, we are good and evil, some more on one side then the other.  We can’t hide from human realities and natures.  This is also show cased in the series.

The thing to remember is that Norman wasn’t writing about historical reality, he wrote science fiction.  Elements exist that are familiar to us but in all, his whole society is nothing more then an untested product of his imagination.  We can neither prove or deny the final outcome of his creation with any accuracy like we do with other reality based cultures.  We have nothing to study.  For those that point to us, I would say no, that isn’t even close.    We are a pick and choose recreation of some elements, but not at all an accurate representation of “book Gor.”  We are to quick to hide behind a ton of scape goats.  Even the most avid “hard core Gorean.”  Nor is the vast majority of us experienced with first hand knowledge of what the real deal is about.  We are insulated from it, we only can discuss it via intellectual knowledge, we also view “reports” with a bit of scepticism due to sensational hungry media and often play that card.  We  emotionally distance ourselves from it then pat ourselves on the back because of a given point of view that makes us appear one way or the other.  All in all quite interesting mess we have created.  The question is, if push comes to shove and faced with the real issue, what ultimately would our stand be?  I am not sure the vast majority of us could honestly say with 100% conviction.  I am sure all of us would have something to say, but what we say now may not be what we say or do later on when placed nose to nose with the situation.

It is subjects like this that bring out the good and bad. Reality vs fiction.  Morality and ethics.  Fundamentalist and liberal.  It is also a good time to dive deep inside and ask the hard questions.  Yes despite what side of the fence you will be on, you will be challenged, called names, even gasp Un Gorean.  Ultimately though you must look at yourself in the mirror and view  your morality and your ethics.  Do they reflect what you honestly want them to be.  Are they based on aspects, ideas and concepts that can stand the tests to come.

For those that care, my answer to the question, be it a Gorean one or not is the following.  Exploitation is a reality, as is hunger, murder, rape, theft, and a host of other not so pretty things.  Just because they happen to exist doesn’t mean I have to morally accept it as right.  I don’t.  I am reflective on the following passage from the Gor books (paraphrased)

The test of society is not based on the conformance or non conformance of principles but rather on the prosperity of it’s people.

Taking off the rose coloured glasses and examining the issue in the light of day, my answer can not waiver.

Jahna

_____________________________

Mass-produced human beings are attractive only to those who expect to be their benevolent mass producers. John Norman

(in reply to Maahsatti)
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RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 9:57:57 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		-fast reply or not so much-

It's always interesting to see, even self proclaimed Goreans will minimize the books as less then credible works of fiction to emphasize their own personal agenda. Ohhhhh, and Jahnaca rose colored eyewear is a universally prescribed possession, no one party tends to utilize them anymore or any less.

Bull

_____________________________

Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 10:13:12 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jahnaca

Elements exist that are familiar to us but in all, his whole society is nothing more then an untested product of his imagination.


Emphasis mine. It would have to be considered an interesting point that the books seem to forward the notion that a Gorean tests others to take their measure and know their merits. Yet so few are willing to test the books themselves. For me, it's always been the case that reality is the definitive standard against which assumptions are tested, and that my nature is the definitive yardstick against which palatability is tested, insofar as I can discern it. But we must still bear in mind that there is a major difference between being of a modern western mindset with features that resemble the Gorean one, and being of a Gorean mindset with features that resemble the modern western one.

Which is why I use my newfound vision to guide me, supplemented by another book entirely; the Gor books just happen to appear to agree with me, and so do some people who self-identify as Goreans. If there is to be some name for the way I think, it might as well be "Gorean" as anything else. Certainly, no other term appears to be closer in use at the moment. But as you said, it is in the mirror that I must find the man I want to be, or at least a man that is becoming him. And when I look in the mirror, I see a man whose ideas and ideals are more similar to those of some men here than other men here. This is one of the topics that make the distance easier to judge.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 10:47:00 AM   
Braveheart6942


Posts: 141
Joined: 6/11/2005
Status: offline 		Tal Jahna..

You present a most excellent perspective!

It is quite true that Gorean "slavery" *as we practice it*, has
*nothing* to do with real slavery in almost any sense, such
that the term "slavery" is a misnomer. However, as a *metaphor*,
it describes the deep submission that many women crave, and
which the Gorean paradigm allows in order to enrich both their
own lives as women, and the lives of their men.

Often I prefer to use the term "kajira" which the books use to
mean "female slave," but in our application can be taken to
mean "female deep submissive" since it is a made-up term,
and it avoids the mischaracterization of "slave" versus the
historical reality. Anything consensual is truly *not* "slavery."

Further, as you said...
quote:

By now the “but Goreans didn’t” comes to mind. Have you all been reading the same series? Goreans did exploit, were cruel, did lie and cheat and all that other stuff we deny. It’s in the series, tiny segments of historical/human reality caught between diatribes of the pretty stuff. The reason these things exist is because despite culture humans are human, we are good and evil, some more on one side then the other. We can’t hide from human realities and natures. This is also show cased in the series.


It seems quite obvious that Mr. Norman wished to depict
humans as authentically as possible, and so all sorts of
people with bad characters were shown as being "Gorean,"
but this affinity with "being Gorean" was by reason of birth
only. Actually, these "Goreans" did not *act Gorean* by virtue
of the philosophy that Norman was illustrating by way of their
counterexample. Even the *protagonists*, such as Tarl and
Jason, cannot be counted upon to always exhibit *Gorean*
ideals per the philosophy. Thus, one must read the series
with a critical eye as to what Norman was presenting, and
what things he shows as edifying, and those things that are
demonstrated to be non-edifying, and thus, contra-examples.
Seen in that light, Gorean philosophy is a set of principles
that we, as Goreans, *aspire to*, even though we may not
be able to always attain them, yet we strive to exemplify them
in our walk. The principles challenge us to live authentically
on one hand, and to continually better ourselves in relation to
our humanity on the other. Not to be ashamed of "who we are,"
but neither to be complacent of it, ever-seeking to make
ourselves better and more noble.

That is the true calling of Gorean philosophy, in my view.

Cheers!
Braveheart


_____________________________

Live Free & with Honor
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RTGoreanLodge/

"Damn it, Morpheus, not everyone believes what you believe!"

"My beliefs don't require them to."

(in reply to Jahnaca)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 11:34:39 AM   
amelliagrace


Posts: 1792
Joined: 8/4/2007
Status: offline 		FR-
 
WARNING:  Stream of consciousness format.
 
The world is a pretty nasty place to live.  Horrible things happen daily.  Unspeakably vile things happen on a regular basis.
 
There are valid reasons to ponder the greater context, the philosophical questions, and to emotionally and mentally distance oneself from the grotesque in order to more objectively examine it.  There are valid reasons to do the opposite, as well.
 
Taken in the context of history, the subject at hand is not nearly so unsavory as it when taken in the context of the here and now.  Taken in the context of "shit happens" and a view that is not 'up close and personal", it may be viewed as unfortunate, disgusting, less than optimal, sad, regretable, etc.  It can equally be viewed as "the way things are", "not the fault of any one individual", "what they were destined for", "what they are suited to or worthy of".
 
Frankly, when it comes to this issue, I don't much care what Norman had to say in the books.  What I do care about are issues of minimum standards for community and individual behavior, freedom as one of the supreme pennicles of human existence (regardless of whether it is attained in chains or seized and held - Selah.  Cogitate on that if you will.).  I care about human beings, though not in a bleeding heart sort of way.
 
This issue hits home for me, for a number of reasons.  Those reasons have faces, and names.   The details are none of your business, so don't bother asking.
 
I wish there were more Men in the world, both Gorean and non.  I long to see more good men, both Gorean and non.  Yes, the same applies to women as well.  The world would be a far better place, imnsho, if at least 25% of the males were castrated and shackled.  I'm not sure whether the percentage of women I'd do similar with is greater or less, to be truthful.  Then men of the homes from which the girls in question originate did a piss pot poor job as Men, in the majority of cases - again, my opinion.  In the majority of the remainder, the girl likely couldn't have been saved from her own foolishness by anyone.  There will always be a small portion who find themselves in a hell not of their own making, and through no weakness or fault of their own.
 
'Gospel according to Grace", chapter 4:  "Any individual who fails to seek to remedy the situation when another pisses on their home stone is worthy of death or the worse treatment of complete and utter shunning.
 
Any who fail to feel a compassion for the wantonly abused and neglected which results in addressing those things when they occur within your spere of influence and/or circle of steel would be subjected to the exact same fate, were I God.  Oh, give thanks that I am not.
 
Those who through their own willful ignorance and stupidity wind up in hell are to be lamented as a waste of what could have been, and used as an example to instill in the young the improtance of avoiding willfull ignorance and stupidity."
 
Ya know, institutionallized slavery is not something I could ever support, as it rewards and encourages the weak.  Non consensual salvery, when condoned by selective awareness and denial by society and individuals does the same thing, just on a smaller scale.  Consensual non-consensuality is, imo, the only form of slavery that raises the bar of human standard, and can be (though this is not a given) credit to those who practice it.
 
To those who would put on sack cloth and ashes over the issue at hand, I would say that only in some cases is it warranted.  Not all of the oppressed and abused are 'innocent' of the situation.  To those who would be so callous and clueless as to think that there is always a way to freedom (outside of death, which is almost always an option), and feel little to no compassion or reighteous indignation over such things, I can only pray you get a clue, or drop dead before polluting the gene pool further.
 
There are men, and there are men.  There are women, and there are women.  Some of them are a cut far above the others.  Do you have the stones to take a stand that improves the quality of life for people, and the efficiency of society, where you live?  Do you have the guts to address that smear on your home stone, when opportunity presents?  Are you Gorean enough in thought to accept that you can't fix the whole world, and that it doesn't want you to fix it anyway?  Will the world, your nation, your comunity and your family be better because of you, in spite of you, or only improve when you are gone?
 
Yes, if you take some time to think about it, all of the above IS on topic.
 
To quote someone I believe most of you are acquainted with, "You can agree with me, or..............you can be wrong."
 
Regards-
Grace

Edited.......sigh.

< Message edited by amelliagrace -- 2/11/2008 11:44:24 AM >

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 11:49:38 AM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hey, Grace.

Before I answer the rest of the post, I think I have a way to paraphrase the Gospel of Grace in a manner that has more levity, yet expresses the fundamental point I think you are trying to express with it.

quote:

The Gospel of Grace:

Verily thou shalt have both balls and a heart, or thou shalt have neither.

The End.



Health,
al-Aswad.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 2/11/2008 11:50:39 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to amelliagrace)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 11:57:14 AM   
Rule


Posts: 8016
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Braveheart6942
Anything consensual is truly *not* "slavery."
I disagree. The natural slave is an extension of the master, they are one. In that case the master is not a thief. When it is non-consual the oppressor is a thief.

(in reply to Braveheart6942)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 12:41:01 PM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trevelyan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Braveheart6942

quote:

Hence, the question would be whether you think it's acceptable to snatch a Chinese woman (or buy her from her parents) and sell her to a buyer elsewhere for the same sort of treatment as the examples you quoted above.


Tal..

No, it's not. Trafficking in humans (so-called "white slavery") is illegal both under
US and International law, and as Tim said, any such traffickers need to be handed
over to the authorities.

Also, non-consensual slavery violates *Gorean principles*.... forget the fictional
Conan-style storyline. The philosophy is beyond storyline fantasy. Norman
himself has written and said on various occasions that violating a person's
right to choose their own path in life is unconscionable. This is why fantasy-style
"Goreans" are not. They break the very foundational principles which make
us Gorean.

Cheers,
Braveheart


Braveheart,

What, in  your opinion, are the foundational principles that you refer to?  And more importantly, what are their source?

Trevelyan





I too would like to know this....


Be well

Camerius

< Message edited by Camerius -- 2/11/2008 12:42:05 PM >

_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

(in reply to Trevelyan)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 12:53:32 PM   
Braveheart6942


Posts: 141
Joined: 6/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I disagree. The natural slave is an extension of the master, they are one. In that case the master is not a thief. When it is non-consual the oppressor is a thief.


I agree with you & with the concept of "natural slave" in the sense
it is commonly used here, but if she can choose to leave, which
she can if she is consensual, how is she a *true slave* in any real
sense? She can be "slave in her heart" or "slave to her master"
or "emotionally enslaved" and such, but all those use the term
"slave" as a metaphor, since the reality of slavery is contradicted
by consensuality.

There are those who are slaves at heart, but do not live in chains,
and there are those who live in chains who will never be slaves
at heart, yet they do not have the ability to cast off those
chains and break free. Which is "more slave" is a question
for philosophical discussion, yet in reality, one can choose to
leave, even if she doesn't want to, and one cannot choose to
leave despite his passionate desire to. And it remains that the
latter is true slavery.

I wish you well,
Braveheart



_____________________________

Live Free & with Honor
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RTGoreanLodge/

"Damn it, Morpheus, not everyone believes what you believe!"

"My beliefs don't require them to."

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 12:54:29 PM   
Trevelyan


Posts: 528
Joined: 6/12/2006
From: Mountain View, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

-fast reply-

I have a nagging question that would seem to me of a Gorean nature....

What happened to the males within the Home Stone these destitute females hence came?  Why were many of these girls compelled to seek greener pasture? Were not these stalwart males able to muster, defend or better inform their charge as to impending gloom and doom? Why were these women so willing to subjugate themselves to this dangerous unknown? What of the families or follow citizens that market away such dishearted or beguiled females? Is it a simple matter of economics and survival?

Is it all that wrong to be a pet owner? What of the loved lap dogs scattered throughout the world? Are they seen in the same light? Surely Michael Vick would have been a bad owner of anything....

Some things to ponder I reckon.

Bull 

OK, OK that was more than one question; sue me......


I recall of comment that Leonidas made some time ago in a thread that was discussing a woman who had been raped in a bar.  He said "you do not rape the women of honorable men, because if you do, they will do their best to kill you." 

_____________________________

"In short the differences between the men of Earth and those of Gor were almost certain to be primarily cultural, and not physiological."
Mercenaries of Gor

(in reply to xBullx)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Forced Sex Slavery in Our Own Back Yard - 2/11/2008 1:05:12 PM   
Braveheart6942


Posts: 141
Joined: 6/11/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Also, non-consensual slavery violates *Gorean principles*.... forget the fictional
Conan-style storyline. The philosophy is beyond storyline fantasy. Norman
himself has written and said on various occasions that violating a person's
right to choose their own path in life is unconscionable. This is why fantasy-style
"Goreans" are not. They break the very foundational principles which make
us Gorean.

Cheers,
Braveheart



Braveheart,

What, in your opinion, are the foundational principles that you refer to? And more importantly, what are their source?

Trevelyan




I too would like to know this....


Be well

Camerius



Tal to you both...

The key to the answer is given in the quote of me above, namely,
"Norman himself has written and said on various occasions that violating
a person's right to choose their own path in life is unconscionable."

We, as Goreans, believe and practice that each person has the *freedom
to choose* their own path, even if that path is that of being slave, it is
still *their own free choice*. Thus, anything that removes the freedom
to choose one's own path is a violation of this basic principle.

We recognize "slavery" *only* in the context of consensuality, and in
no other. I would gladly see any person keeping *real slaves* turned
over to the authorities for a long stay in Leavenworth.

Cheers,
Braveheart

_____________________________

Live Free & with Honor
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RTGoreanLodge/

"Damn it, Morpheus, not everyone believes what you believe!"

"My beliefs don't require them to."

(in reply to Camerius)
Profile   Post #: 80
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