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The Perception of Freedom... - 2/16/2008 9:01:14 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		(This thread is not simply for the Goreans in the crowd, I am addressing it to them as this is a Gorean thread, but no one is without an opinion, so if you have something valid to add, by all means do so. But while repsonding do try and remember this is the Gorean section and though our views may differ, these varied ideals are not then wrong. That beings said I would hope the Goreans are open minded enough to realize the same pertains to the replies of  others.)



Tal Goreans,

I’m labeling this thread "The Perception of Freedom". I have been trying to find an old thread that Leonidas posted some time back about a man that had a last stand shootout. I used the search do-hicky feature but to no avail. I have thought often about this thread and it’s implications as to what perhaps Leonidas was looking at in relationship to this mans encounter with the law and the Gorean mindset.

He was asking if the man had honor. The fact is honor can be such a relative term that the responses were all over the place. Honor can be perceived differently in a variety of ways, each caste might have subtle differences and certainly Port Karian honor might contrast with that of the men of Cos or even Ar. In Saudi Kingdom honor may not mirror that of an Irishman living on the Gaelic Isles. The responses to Leonidas’ thread were numerous and while it was an excellent “man” thread it left me feeling something remained unanswered or undetermined. I never even got the feeling that Leonidas was satisfied himself with the results.

After rehashing it in my mind many, many times over the past however long its been; I have came to the conclusion that perhaps the resolution of this dilemma lies not in the word honor, but rather the word freedom.

This man as I understood it was an illegal alien and had been a rather bad egg as the locals of southern California perceived him. He was a thief and who knows what else; his morals or sense of morality were altogether contrary to those of the local residents. Just examine the mind of a person that would be of the Caste of Thieves of Port Kar versus the residents of Victoria or such. A sense of honor may exist separately for both. Its perception can in fact maintain conjugative meaning while in some instances perhaps not so much. The fact is honor can be an overall relative term.As for freedom; I would say the separation of defintion is not so much.

You see this man that in the end had a gun battle to the death with local authorities did in fact state in his final actions on Earth, I am a free man and that I shall remain. He lived unto his own codes (one of which would be to maintain his personal honor we would think) and would not be fettered by laws or societal devices of others designed to provide security through the sacrifice of personal liberties or freedoms. We can judge him as we see fit and in looking at the local populace that found solace behind their own version of the truth sought consolation behind the protection of a system that they themselves are, with each passing day submitting more of their liberty and personal sovereignty unto.

In the end; no matter your perception of right or wrong, this man died a free man and in that, perhaps this man was more admirable than a great many of us subjugated beings claiming greatness behind an illusionary sense of self-determination. What fiction does your life subscribe to in the name of liberty?

Just a few things one may want to ponder about “slavery” that doesn’t lead to sex. Unless you consider things such as your personal liberties taking it up the ass as an acceptable fetish.

Obviously more than personal freedom is at the heart of my thread here, but let’s allow the message reveal itself on its own, I am assuming it has the strength to move itself into the light of the Gorean sun.

So “Goreans” and men valuing liberty and personal sovereignty what have you compromised lately to create your illusion of security and progress.

Live well and free,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 2/16/2008 9:02:10 AM >

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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.
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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/16/2008 9:31:06 AM   
fairerthanshe


Posts: 3033
Joined: 1/18/2007
Status: offline 		Greetings Master,

This may be the thread to which Master referred. 

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=747659&key=honor%2Cdeath%2Cpolice

may she wish you well ~ fairer


_____________________________

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/16/2008 11:06:57 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 16522
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Hi Bull,

This would be tedious, but you could call up his profile, view forum posts, and start wading through.

Tim

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/16/2008 11:33:49 AM   
oakwood909


Posts: 16
Joined: 11/18/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Bull and Goreans

I often think about this subject. One of the things I like about the books is that he hints about this in modern society.

Perhaps it’s because of my upbringing. Being raised in the country where freedom is not only the norm but you had to be self reliant or you did not survive. I was also a Cops son. I was taught to defend myself and who I was as well as the ever present danger that someone that my Dad handled might be looking for us, hence why we lived in the country. We had too many close calls living in town.  I was also the oldest of four kids much responsibility fell on me.

My sibling and I were completely incensed about taxes, especially property taxes. We were not dim bulbs and started researching everything we could and quickly found out that real-estate did not mean real property but was formed from the base word “real” in Spanish which meant royal so it is “royal-estate” if  people think that land belongs to us just try not paying your property tax and so what happens.

In the Bible Christ says “A man who can carry all of his possessions on one shoulder is truly a free man” Another quote I like is from the movie Kapok which is “Oh the chains that people bind themselves with”.

In this day and age city ordinances and regulations, city, county, state, federal, and now laws from the U.N. and the world court try to run, regulate and limit our lives. In the location I live I can not legally change an outlet in my house without getting a permit and inspection from a government official.

So what does this all mean to me? I see people who beg to give up their freedom to be lazy and not accountable for their actions. Take socialized medicine the operative word is socialized which is socialism. The fact that socialism has failed every country is has been tried “even China is moving inevitably from socialism”.  The people in “power” who promote it say everybody has to join it and there will be punishments if people don’t comply. If people read the last program that was proposed “which I have” they would find the things that the people who where trying to “help us” did not tell us for example if you drink alcohol or break the speed limit you were guilty for defrauding the government because you cost the government money with “risky” behavior.

I also see people who pretend to be rich by getting up to their eyeballs in dept. They get car loans and credit cards. Dept is a harsh task master. It does not stop when you loose your job or get sick. One quote I like from the books is how “people of earth are slaves in a subtle manner. They have to go to work and please people of the same rank for a few pieces of silver”. I do not drive the best cars or the best motorcycle. I pay cash for everything except my house. I keep a cash reserve so my morals are never compromised I don’t have to stay. I can not be forced to bow down. I have no fear of being fired. So I do not have to compromise myself or integrity. Of course when I think about it I am willing to give up anything to keep my honor and integrity and that gives me a power that most people do not have.

I guess I should define honor and freedom. I use the classical definition of honor. Honor was originally developed to guide the people with power to ensure that they do not abuse or wrong the people who do not. In the books our hero Carl Talbot never wronged anyone. When he was on the road and came upon the wood cutter who was a poor and decent man who lived his life proudly and honestly. Talbot did not use his might or authority to force anything from the man. He was honest and matter of fact about his needs. He was hungry needed food and had no money. The wood cutter first refused and Talbot said nothing as the man turned away. The man turned and said I have only peas and turnips but you are welcome in my house. Talbot replied “the Priest Kings could not ask for more”.  He did not complain or demean the man because he was wise enough to know that he was not only offering the best he had and that it was a great sacrifice to share it, but he invited him into his house. Which was a risk of not only his life but for the property his life depended on being taken from him. Talbot new and stated that “a man in his house with his homes stone was Ubar” and rightfully respected it. How many people today would go to a little shack and eat such a humble meal with reverence. I see many people today that would ridicule such a man because he did not meet the standard illustrated on television.

Now to the subject of freedom, I believe our founding fathers had the right idea. One should seek happiness without stepping on the freedom or harming others. What that exactly means is up to the individual.  

I thank you for reading my ramblings and I hope that these humble statements help you find your own way in life and be free and happy. It has always been easier to tear others down than to build ourselves up.

Be well

Oakwood

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/16/2008 1:26:45 PM   
Totalmaster4you


Posts: 1359
Joined: 6/19/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,
 
We can never know what really was in this mans heart and mind on that day he died. I'm not completely certain he wanted to "die" for his freedom. There is a phenomenon called suicide by cop. Therefore for ,me to believe that the person was not afraid to die for his freedom they have to be seeking freedom, or at least be making an attempt to escape, which this man (according to the reports I read and video I saw)did not try to do. In my opinion he was afraid of spending time in jail and was unable to take his own life and was therefore a suicide by cop.
 
The fact that the books put forward a "caste" of thieves as a means of somehow justifying their behavior was limited to Port Kar as the only city where it was recognized (To the best of my recollection) and a means by which the writer could show the change in values of certain characters. Since we are adapting the information from the books there is no necessity to accept any of their values to help us understand our freedoms and how we may be losing those freedoms very subtly. In my opinion there are many better examples of Goreans making difficult decisions in order to honor themselves, protect their freedoms or their Home Stones. Norman aka. Lange also showed how Government through manipulation of information, could steal the citizens freedom of choice without the citizen understanding the truth of what was occurring. (for example Cernus being invested as first a warrior, which is high caste, then Ubar and despite his great wealth his greed and nature made him manipulate the Tarn races to try to gain more monies was a demonstration of the point you made about how we, the people, can lose freedoms by government manipulation.)
 
On a personal basis I try to review each of my decisions in the light of what I would accomplish vs. whatever freedom I might give up. For example accepting a loan using the equity in my home I accept the limitation requiring repayment before I might do something else with those monies which may be more entertaining. Another example comes from a friend I was speaking with who was bemoaning the fact that they could no longer pack all their belongings in their vehicle and go. They now had beds and other whatnots of collecting as they lived and now felt trapped by their possessions.
 
I wish you well,
Tym
Touchyourmind

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/16/2008 3:00:10 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

My friend these things also run through my mind often. Some of the threads I have started in the past on good and evil, perceptions of such, honor and integrity, all revolved around the fact that each of us lives by certain morals and ethics. being from different backgrounds, cultures, and areas of the globe often mold our morals and ethics, as different groups of people will have different virtues that their morals and ethics are created on. It is this self examination of our virtues, morals and ethics, that attracts me to Goreans in general and one of many reasons that I call myself Gorean.

There are many labels I choose, that define who I am: Gorean, American, Independent Conservative, etc. and we strive all of our lives to explore these things by living, thus the phrase about not asking a rock how to live just proceed to do so. Some I have spoken with look at it from a hedonistic view, but they forget that along with choosing to do as we please, comes the responsibility of accepting the consequences of our actions.

If you were to strip all of these labels away, there would be one thing that remains, and I feel it would remain with you as well, and that is a Free Man. I make my choices, a steer my own boat, and I choose to follow the laws and rules of my Home Stone. I will continue to do so, and I will always fight to remain free, even if it my only option left available were to die free.

The thread you are refering to is "Death of a Man" and her are my comments from that thread:

"This would depend on one's definition of honor. If it is; you live and die by your own personal code and principles, then this man may have kept his honor. Something like this depends on which side of the line you are on. It is easy to put into black and white terms for me, but again my black and white is based upon my personal code and principles.

Do I personally agree with this man and his actions? No, because I define my honor differently. It is easy to judge someone's honor when it reflects your own but when it does not, is it still honor? "

Live well my friend,
Orion

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 2/16/2008 3:01:21 PM >

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/16/2008 6:58:38 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

In the end; no matter your perception of right or wrong, this man died a free man and in that, perhaps this man was more admirable than a great many of us subjugated beings claiming greatness behind an illusionary sense of self-determination. What fiction does your life subscribe to in the name of liberty?


Tal Bull,
 
I think there are no heros to be found among those who, having made a career of preying upon their fellowmen, end up shot for the trouble they cause.
 
You suggest that in some sense he chose freedom. But had he been a man who understood and valued freedom, he would not have treated the rights and freedoms of others with such cavalier disrespect in the first place. It is not freedom that is valued by men who esteem only their own.
 
I cannot ennoble a hunted fugitive, caught and killed in a suicidally self-provoked fire-fight, as admirably having chosen to die a "free man". In my view, choosing to die a free man would have entailed ceasing to harm or threaten anyone, accepting arrest, doing his time, and then living as a free man until he passed on.
 
This fellow, instead, chose to deliberately provoke a fire-fight that would enable him both to escape the consequences of being held responsible for his actions and to kill a few people along the way. I call that deciding to give your victims and the society you have preyed upon one final, blazing, middle finger.
 
Bang, garbage pick-up, next.
 
Be well,
 
Kirata

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/16/2008 7:06:56 PM   
breatheasone


Posts: 4004
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Tal Bull,

I think there are no heros to be found among those who, having made a career of preying upon their fellowmen, end up shot for the trouble they cause.

You suggest that in some sense he chose freedom. But had he been a man who understood and valued freedom, he would not have treated the rights and freedoms of others with such cavalier disrespect in the first place. It is not freedom that is valued by men who esteem only their own.

I cannot ennoble a hunted fugitive, caught and killed in a suicidally self-provoked fire-fight, as admirably having chosen to die a "free man". In my view, choosing to die a free man would have entailed ceasing to harm or threaten anyone, accepting arrest, doing his time, and then living as a free man until he passed on.

This fellow, instead, chose to deliberately provoke a fire-fight that would enable him both to escape the consequences of being held responsible for his actions and to kill a few people along the way. I call that deciding to give your victims and the society you have preyed upon one final, blazing, middle finger.

Bang, garbage pick-up, next.

Be well,

Kirata




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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/17/2008 3:40:23 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 7470
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline 		Interesting thread, Bull, as per usual.

Assuming you and I have respect for another, Bull, we have a duty to ourselves and to one another to not steal one another's possessions. Blatantly, the man in question lacked respect; furthermore, he clearly does not value freedom in the scenario where he doesn't value the liberty of others. To add, his death had more to do with an inevitable consequence of his actions - no one is going to let others waltz 'round stealing things without recourse - rather than "dying a free man".

The man in question seems to live in a valueless mind, something akin to Existentialism. There is merit in this philosophy as existentialists believe we hold power to be all that we can be, which is quite an uplifting idea, but comes complete with a dark side in that existentialists reject values and order. "Women are made, not born" (or something like that) - Simone de Beavuoir, existentialist feminist philosopher. In a nutshell, the man in question rejects values, respect, order and the liberty of others; I'm not sure how this fits with gorean concepts.

I'll add that freedom comes in various guises - not least intellectual and political freedom - I can't see how stealing and facing the consequences is a measure of either of the two aforementioned. In terms of the perception of freedom, my view is that political freedom is only one half of the story - a discussion for another thread, perhaps.

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/18/2008 10:43:49 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

So "Goreans" and men valuing liberty and personal sovereignty what have you compromised lately to create your illusion of security and progress.


Tal again Bull,

I have been struggling to process that question. I put it off, initially, because I was moved to respond to something else first. But returning to it now, here are my thoughts.

What you are calling our illusions are real to us; we believe them. We can't enumerate the "illusions" we believe. If we knew they were only illusions, we wouldn't believe them! So, what have I done to create or strengthen some illusion in my life lately? Gee, nothing that I know of (obviously).

We do, however, know our compromises; and that rationalizing them installs an illusion. Rationalizations, simply put, are the lies we tell ourselves. And to get at what I think you're asking here, a more pointed and answerable form of the question might be, "What have you lied to yourself about lately."

Be well,

Kirata



< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/18/2008 11:06:43 PM >

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/19/2008 8:42:37 AM   
xBullx


Posts: 3962
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		-a general reply--

Unlike in Leonidas' thread I didn't want to focus on our own personal subsriptions as to honor and what is rght as we personally perceive it; but more to the broad perspective as to personal sovereinty. Not just the vision we hold on what is right and wrong, but rather what could freedom entail from any angle. Hell I personally believe the fellow in Leonidas' story to be an asshole, crimminal and unaccountable to OUR standards, I have no intent to make excuses for him either.

Does the term freedom come with a moral standard and if so who determines that? What makes any man superior to another in this regard? Is freedom a gift or a conquest? It seems my ponderings continue....

Live well,

Bull

< Message edited by xBullx -- 2/19/2008 8:46:35 AM >

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Live well,

Bull



I'm not an asshole; I'm simply resolute...

"A Republic, If You Can Keep It."

Caution: My humor is a bit skewed.

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/19/2008 8:46:23 AM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline

Hmmm, the perception of Freedom, Bull...quite a hard thing for trying to dissolve what is hidden behind that seven lettered word, but sometimes hard things have to picked apart and have a closer look by each of us for seeing and maby, trying too to understand what it's made up of.

I'm going another way with this rather than give simple answers for what you posted in the OP, and try give my own personal understanding of what Freedom is.

First, let's look at what we have as freedoms, as there seems to be a lot of them around. We have the freedom of speech, faith, the Press, to persue happiness or own personal goal, to vote as we think is right. I'm sure both you and others can come up with a few more than I have mentioned here. But what strikes me as the must curious thing is, off all these versions of freedom, the one we last use or even supports is the freedom of thought. To use our own brains to conclude, reach understandings or even think outside what has been put up as the normal way.

Now this is interesting, the freedom of being able to think for yourself. How many have done this lately and not just taken someones words/thoughts/views as being at facevalue instead of determining what their own thoughts are on the matter at hand by finding evidence to either support it or refute it. How come we so easy give up that freedom and the others so hard?

We even elect people for doing this for us, we do so in the honest hope that they will tend our best interest while in the seat of government, to decide for us, so we don't have to think about it. So, while we can say that we haven't given any of our personal freedoms away, we still have in that sence, since we're letting others ( yes myself included here as I too have voted for some to do so for me ) think and decide for us what is best instead of useing our own personal freedom, that of the freedom to think for yourself.

We also see it here, on the board and other places, so few asking questions as to why some are thinking this is being so or so, and instead silently take what is said as being right. That is as you know, takeing the easy way, the fast ride but also the slippery road. For me to be Gorean is too to use my freedom of thinking for myself, I even exercise it on a daily basis both here and offline. I'm well within my own reach and mental capacity to draw my own conclusions, thought/views without letting someone else do this for me, just as I advocate and endorses it for haveing everyone else do the same.

Why is it we so willingly give up this so very vital personal freedom so damn easy? Are the feelings of a false security really so much worth that we will let it happen?

Only glad thing I can see in this is, that there are others outthere that have refused to give up that freedom just as I have, some even tend to write deep thoughts about why, one have even written a 26 book series of another world to try and point this out, yet the flock of sheep seems to always be bigger than the pack of wolfs.

Even tho the wolfs are spread, sometimes if you listen very carefully, you can hear them howl......



Be well

  Camerius




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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/19/2008 10:00:54 AM   
Anarrus


Posts: 475
Joined: 11/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xBullx

-a general reply--


Does the term freedom come with a moral standard and if so who determines that? What makes any man superior to another in this regard? Is freedom a gift or a conquest? It seems my ponderings continue....

Live well,

Bull


Tal Bull,

I've heard it said many times that with freedom comes great responsibility. I agree with that wholeheartedly. Just because one can and has the freedom to do so doesn't necessairly mean one should. We have a responsibilty to be self-governing in our freedom. When we aren't, others step in to do it for us.
As for a moral standard, I suppose it depends in part on how one defines moral standard, but I think by lose definition it tends to change from place to place, time to time and culture to culture, sometimes even man to man, which can make everyone superior and no one superior.
Perhaps instead of a gift or a conquest, maybe freedom's a birthright, but a birthright we have to nuture and defend fully, and in many ways, in order to realize it's greatest potential.

I wish you well

Anarrus

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/19/2008 10:55:44 AM   
Camerius


Posts: 742
Joined: 9/5/2006
Status: offline 		Yes Anarrus, freedom calls for great responsability, but mostly, as I'm sure you too know, it don't. I think it should, but too mostly, from different reasons, it don't, and why I would put a should in the lines of "freedom calls for great responsability"...


Be well

  Camerius


_____________________________

"To Gorean morality many Earth moralities might ask, "Why so hard?" To these Earth moralities, the Gorean ethos might ask, "Why so soft?" Marauders of Gor, pg.8

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RE: The Perception of Freedom... - 2/20/2008 4:06:31 AM   
MAWarGod


Posts: 174
Joined: 1/6/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Bull,

I ask is one reason You speak of this is Our freedoms as a society as a whole since the 80’s has been slowly taken away?


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