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RE: What's with the hosility from without


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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 4:48:57 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Leonidias -

I have to side with Rover in this point of the debate...

The rhetoric that you eschew is expressive, but is definitively is dancing about on a thread of solidity.

You state that there is no similarity... and, then go on to describe (between "free women" and "slave" the very variances that you decry in "BDSM'ers".

I still see no difference as the variations described and hte allowances that are offered (even amongst the slaves) is such that it is less than that purported.

On a personal level - I do not use the terms offered to descibe my personal interrelational dynamic because these terms are so often misapplied (in my opinion) and/or misconstrued through the personal reflection through one's determination on a definition. It is BDSM as it is definitevely outside the norms from both (as Rover described it) a sensory and an interpersonal relational value... it could be Gorean, if I were to adopt the language offered and the books as a lose manifesto and utilizing the rationale that you and others utilized to describe Gorean.

Even others who are engaged in the discussion and whom take their life's style and means very seriously are denoting significant definitive separation from the poses you express as 'essential'. And, yet they are Goreans through expression and determination.

The very fetishes you describe (Victorian as one example) are emulated by people who are not Gorean... collars are considered sacrosanct and binding by most who are very serious about this....

On the flip side, I know Goreans in real life who contain all of the stripes that are contained in our discourse.... the slovenliness... the incredibly strict regimine offered... and the ettiquette demanders... et al.

It all (as I mentioned once before) is soley dependant on the person(s) involved... their socilaizations and the degree wto which they desire to adhere to what is 'written' and/or expressed in other ways.

You state that there is 'no one way', but that someone must... <insert edict here> ...in order to be Gorean. I do see this as a contradiction... and, the condemnation of all "BDSM'ers" for 'coddling' as hyperbole in an egalitarian pose.

And, I am am not "condemning" Gor... simply pointing out the inconsitencies in logic that are being expressed at the expense of many who are equal in more ways than hubris would admit for some.

~J

PS: all of my questions are serious.. besides being a cut-up for the sake of some levity (and, to amuse myslef - I am easily bored), I am a rather serious person that contemplates life and significant issues while I muck the stalls. I have to do something to alleviate my mind's attention from the stench - apples are in season, don't cha know.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 261
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 4:51:30 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		"I don't remember saying that I thought that he wrote the books as a lifestyle primer. I thought that I was pretty clear that I thought he wrote the books as a way of engaging in philosophical musing while getting paid for it."

Actually, you did much more than that. You said:

"The Gor books certainly present a philosophical argument, and a model of relational dynamics". (emphasis added)

And that is the basis for concluding that John Lange is the ultimate arbiter of what is and isn't proper Gor (not you, nor anyone else). What is a model if not a framework? Neither you, nor anyone else, may divine on behalf of the creator what he intended it to mean (or do you presume to repudiate John Lange and install yourself as the new ultimate arbiter for all of Gor?). And by your own admission, the creator isn't talking:

"He has said that his wife is in no way submissive to him, and that he is monogamous. Beyond that, I've never heard him say, or heard comments attributed to him about it."

Does anyone else hear the music from "2001 A Space Odyssey" as the apes stare at the smooth, black monolith awaiting something... anything?

The fact is, you have attributed designs to the books that you admit don't exist.

"Advocating for female slavery in academia in the late 60s and 70s certainly wouldn't have subjected him to any kind of sanctions at all."

Clearly the inference is that Mr. Lange was advocating female slavery, and WOULD have said so publicly if he were not concerned about his academic career. Or perhaps he wouldn't repudiate the obvious fantasy that people were interpreting to be some philosophical model for their lifestyle because his publisher would have SHOT him for killing the golden goose (ie: peeing in the wheaties of a whole lot of book buyers).

I was seriously considering that you were making coherent and cogent argument that was fostering understanding. Just goes to show that I'm not perfect.

John

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 262
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 4:59:36 PM   
SirSix72


Posts: 347
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		ok this seems to be an all out attack on the question of the ability to be different or if there is some community standards that anyone must follow or be called a fake and if their not conforming to what ever the thought ethical things we should do then they should be banned,,,seems to be a two edged sword of conversation here,,,,I propose this question for anyone involved in BDSM or Gorean,,,,,is there not trends that are followed in BDSM such as single tail or any of the other popular things you can do to one another,,,I have seen lots of people that goto seminars about such things,,,,it is very hipocritical in my opinion that someone not Gorean can say we are being hipocrites by judging other simpliy because we adhere to a more strict form of practise than you do and that we should accept diversity here as does BDSM but then again if you look there is a community standard for the correct way to single tail or some of the other flashy things ive seen over thyears,,so before you place a foot in your mouth about diversity take a look at the trend setters inside of BDSM

Master Six

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 263
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 5:01:11 PM   
lonewolf05


Posts: 830
Joined: 6/21/2005
Status: offline 		I don't believe there are any professions that are more easilily undertaken and/or accomplished by either gender, there are a lot of very strong women out there.
=======

uh..not trying to aggravate....but

yeah i see as there are a few

NO female..should be allowed to run a jackhammer due to ripping up her insides vs the structure of a male.
NO female should be allowed to haul around 5 gallons of hot tar, in each hand, up 5 floors on a ladder.....to the roof.
i see it as there ARE some.......and other examples thereof..

but it's just MY views

wolf

(in reply to brightspot)
Profile   Post #: 264
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 5:15:35 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I have to side with Rover in this point of the debate...


There's a suprise.

quote:

The rhetoric that you eschew is expressive, but is definitively is dancing about on a thread of solidity.


OK, we're going to have to agree on definitions again. I think that eschew means to dismiss. If you think so too, I can't make any sense out of that sentence. Do you mean espouse, or spew, maybe?

quote:

You state that there is no similarity... and, then go on to describe (between "free women" and "slave" the very variances that you decry in "BDSM'ers".


Similarity between what and what? I said that slaves are property, and free women aren't. What variances?

quote:

I still see no difference as the variations described and hte allowances that are offered (even amongst the slaves) is such that it is less than that purported.


Huh?

quote:

The very fetishes you describe (Victorian as one example) are emulated by people who are not Gorean... collars are considered sacrosanct and binding by most who are very serious about this...


Did I describe victorian fetishes somewhere? I must be having one of those out-of-body experiences.

The rest of this is just jibberish. I don't mean this as a snide, but were you drinking before you wrote this? You usually make more sense than this.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 265
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 5:22:11 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		So - what you are saying is:

You do not desire to have an intelligent conversation and that you resort to insulting behavior and demeaning others when cornered....

OK... I can dig it. It is your way of "dealing" with being found out.

No issue....

~J

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 266
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 5:28:28 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

"I don't remember saying that I thought that he wrote the books as a lifestyle primer. I thought that I was pretty clear that I thought he wrote the books as a way of engaging in philosophical musing while getting paid for it."

Actually, you did much more than that. You said:

"The Gor books certainly present a philosophical argument, and a model of relational dynamics". (emphasis added)


Okaaaaay? And you somehow equate a philosophical argument and a model of relational dynamics with a lifestyle primer? The former can be academic arguments, Rover, the later is a set of instructions. They aren't remotely the same thing. But you know that, and you can see clearly that I said that. You're just grasping at any straw now, aren't you?

quote:

The fact is, you have attributed designs to the books that you admit don't exist.


And with that, I'm going to say goodby. You're just a pain in the ass, Rover. I know that you think that you're presenting all of these important challenges to our ways, but you're just like every petty stone-thrower on a mission that I've seen come down the pike for a decade. If you need to try to tear something down to salve your wanting self-image, or for whatever reason, fine. Do it on someone else's nickel. There is nothing that I can say that you won't try to nit-pick and challenge, and as I slap you down you just get more desparate to make you point, and more shrill in the attempt. You've accused me, so far, of being an online-only facade, a coward, intellectually dishonest, and more I'm sure that I don't care to remember. Go tell someone who gives a fuck, and who has as much idle time on their hands as you obviously do. The end.



_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 267
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 5:36:03 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		"Okaaaaay? And you somehow equate a philosophical argument and a model of relational dynamics with a lifestyle primer? The former can be academic arguments, Rover, the later is a set of instructions."

You use them EXACTLY as instructions, and denounce those that do not use them to your satisfaction. How's the view from your petard?

In the end you just turned out to be another windbag, Leonidas. And frankly, it's the other Goreans who should be upset with you (I'm just amused) since you're the one sitting in their judgment.

I would say that I'm looking forward to running into you at some real time lifestyle function, but that's not likely is it.

John


(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 268
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 5:36:15 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

You do not desire to have an intelligent conversation and that you resort to insulting behavior and demeaning others when cornered....


No, what I'm saying is that your post didn't make any sense (to me). If there is anyone here (besides your buddy Rover) who can make any sense of it, and thinks that I am off-base in my assessment, I'd be willing to listen. Other than that, I"m done with you too. Bye now.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 269
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 5:42:08 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Abject retreat in the face of adversity is surely not a thing I would have expected.

Rover is a friend... we do not agree on everything, as we are (of course) completely seperate people and (quite frankly) enjoy debating one another on various topics (it is how we met originally)... and, the assumption that it is otherwise is rather a narrow approach to a means of escaping from the conversation...

I truly expected better.

But, expectations are based on assumptions... and I will not carry that thought out further.

No issue, no loss.

~J

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 270
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 6:59:46 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		What is your problem? Have you totally lost control of yourself? Attacks like this are against the TOS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

You're just a pain in the ass, Rover.


(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 271
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 7:44:05 PM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline
quote:

What is your problem? Have you totally lost control of yourself? Attacks like this are against the TOS.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

You're just a pain in the ass, Rover.



I am so disappointed in the turn of which this and many threads have went in this new forum. Excuse me for taking up a space between posts......let the he said/she said/tattle telling bullshit continue.

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 272
RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/29/2005 9:43:17 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline
quote:

Being quiet in a movie theater is a perfectly good example of a shared community standard. If you don't believe it, go to a movie theater and start talking to the person next to you (loudly). You'll discover quickly that not only does the theater owner have a standard that you need to be quiet in there, so do the other folks in the theater with you.


Side Note; Obviously you have never been to an inner city movie theater, they sometimes can bequite loud, especially at horror flicks.

*Brightspot

_____________________________

"Comedy is NOT Pretty!" ~Peter Nelson

But..."May at Least One person have a sense of Humor!" ~KML.

http://360.yahoo.com/my_profile-TD4TwEw8crWS3GHFDcs_DK1rHmW6Dq_E;_ylt=Av2PfG9gH0wkQrMPivuMCivGAOJ3

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 273
[Deleted] - 9/30/2005 6:11:26 AM   
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(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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