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RE: What's with the hosility from without


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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 12:42:51 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		Hmmm... well, I think I was fairly clear in saying that Jews were matrilineal, not really matriarchial in the sense that women rule. The two are often confused especially by those who, for whatever reason, need for there to be examples of matriarchy. As far as women sitting in the front seat with their husbands among chassidim goes, my understanding of why they don't is the same reason why they don't sit near their husbands at the table or otherwise touch in public. It is prohibited for them to do so by religious law (halacha) when she is menstrating, and so they never do, because if they did at some times but not at other times people would know why. It is to protect her modesty. I might be wrong about that, but that is how I understand it.



< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/25/2005 12:44:15 PM >

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 12:56:27 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

That's an enlightened decision, Leonidas. In football we call that a "punt".


Not exactly like a punt. As I said, I've covered this ground before on these boards, and you're more than welcome to read my views if you'd like. This is more like knowing when to stop feeding the monkeys so that you don't attract more monkeys. Have a nice day.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/25/2005 1:04:19 PM >

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 1:15:43 PM   
nenakajira


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

Hmmm... well, I think I was fairly clear in saying that Jews were matrilineal, not really matriarchial in the sense that women rule. The two are often confused especially by those who, for whatever reason, need for there to be examples of matriarchy. As far as women sitting in the front seat with their husbands among chassidim goes, my understanding of why they don't is the same reason why they don't sit near their husbands at the table or otherwise touch in public. It is prohibited for them to do so by religious law (halacha) when she is menstrating, and so they never do, because if they did at some times but not at other times people would know why. It is to protect her modesty. I might be wrong about that, but that is how I understand it.




The way you wrote the original post put the Jewish faith into the matriarchal catagory and thus my original post, though Im sure you did not mean it that way.
As to the halacha during niddah (menstuation), it is alot more complicated than that. As a husband is not allowed to so much as take a passed object from his wife's hands while she is in niddah it is almost impossible for people to not realise what is going on in a close community. The law also applies to a period before niddah and afterwards until she is certified clean again so it encompases much more of the cycle than would be expected by most people. While in niddah you are not allowed to even joke around or be overly friendly with your spouce. All relations of any kind become cold and strained. So unless you really treat your wife like that all the time, its pretty obvious. Its just something not 'discussed'.

The seperation in temple and at other times (like vehicles) and the lack of mixed dancing or even mixed swimming are a slightly different issue. They come from the "Code of Jewish Law" E.H. 21:1; "Biur Halacha" 339, s.v. L'Hakel which state that it could lead to impure thoughts, touching, or promiscuity. The seperation in temple has other reasons as well that stem from the fact that women are not holy or pure and men are. Thus forming part of the sexes seperation and the way they are viewed.

In the end, in many ways, women are treated as lesser creatures under the orthodox jewish faith and the chassidic faith while there are "kinder and gentler" forms of the faith in this day and age they fall far short of the original intention.

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 1:39:54 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
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Status: offline 		Ah, yes. It's the "I will reply to you with platitudes and thinly veiled ad hominem attack, but will not dare to challenge the substance of your assertion" sort of reply. I had expected better of you. I stand corrected.

John

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 2:43:50 PM   
WarriorPoet2005


Posts: 23
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline 		Angry Librarian;

Points well taken. One of the differences I have come to realise on this paticular subject are straight geography. I live in Canada and our politcal landscape here is very different than the US. We don't have an extreme right here with any real political voice. We do however have an extreme left.

You are absolutly correct in that the equlity movement (here or there) have not enshrined anything in law on this issue that impacts my ability to make persoanal choices. They have enshrined in our constitution the Bill of Rights in which the citystate has leveled the playing field and so it should have. Society and the state should be blind as a bat when it comes to equal pay for equal work, access to housing and services, prohibiting discrimination etc. NO one should make any decision regarding anothers abilties or what they deserve based on anything other than merit.

As far as welfare goes either society and/or the state should be ready to help someone in need. The problems we face here is that the state provides so generously that it removes the desire to return to work if your able. Not everyone of course but it is well documented fact that there are people (more than you would think) who are on THIRD GENERATION state assistance.

The illustration of the sign was to demonstrate the "slippery slope" of political correctness and Gender Blending. And as far as I know no one here sued. All it takes here is a complaint and people flee in fear of being called a bad name. We have gone from equal pay for equal work which in my opinion is somthing that is very correct to (assuming the original was correct) changing the literal translation of a word from a different language in order that no one be offended. Being owned by the city state, the zoo has sanctioned this type of thought process by the state. I am not offended by what it was changed to. I am offended that the state chose to change a FACT in the name of political correctness. My children and others can now read this and be completely misinformed. Not a life altering experience for my children and it is after all a small thing but it is a line that I as a citizen of this state don't want to see crossed.

The issue I have with this movement is the elitist thought porcess that they know everything that is good for me (a citizen). My daughter has been told throughout her school career that to stay home and raise childern and keep a home is somehow degrading, diminishes her as a person and has no value. And yes, her mother stayed home. (nice thing to teach a child.. that her mother has no value) I have raised my daughter to believe she can do anything she puts her mind to. But since when is it degrading to for her to contribute to society in this way? I have seen the product of too many households (and one in my own extended family) whose children were raised in a daycare.

My point is the state should stay out of changing fact or history. They should stay out of my childs future decisions by pounding them with politically correct foolishness and simply provide them with the opportunity and resources to make thier own decisions. If that is to be a home care provider and raise thier children, it has no less value than any thing else they wish to do with thier life.

No offense was taken by your comment but I am not being "duped" by the right. I keep track of both the extremes (as I said the extreme right here has no real political voice but they do sound off) mostly for entertainment value.

I take issue however when the state changes things that should not be (The sign is just an example and it scares me what could be next) I also take issue when they tell my child that her mother is of no value and instead of presenting ALL vocations as making a worthy contribution to society. That a teacher is worth more or somehow better than being a stay at home mother... can you see the hipocrisy here? and just as a thought... I wonder what a mom does if it isn't TEACH. My daughter has been told this more than once in school. She has been berated with "why would you only want to do that?" among other things.

If these people had thier way we would all be a lump of homogenous goo.. No men, no women... an oversimplification of the issue and only two examples of many to be sure.

I guess my point is evolution of society will happen and I have no issue with that at all. I was paying equal pay for equal work long before it became law. It's just right and good business practice. I just have a problem with the active DE-valuation of things just because they don't fit thier idea of thier utopian gender blended society. Whoever is doing the blending....

I don't know what it's like there to any definitive degree, but here if you don't like something they say then you are branded as a bigot, mysoginist, nazi among other terms and we Canadians just hate to be called names....

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 2:49:48 PM   
brightspot


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quote:

No matter how you cut it or county it, matriarchial societies are not the most common form of society throughout history. Patriarchial societies were.


Who ever said they were the most common? But they exist(ed)!

Would like to address the following...
Being part Blackfoot Native American, Native Culture is known to have embraced all the Tribe, unless something very dishonorable was done., Homosexuals were consider to be two souled and were held in High Esteem and a very valued segment of the Nation.

*Brightspot

< Message edited by brightspot -- 9/25/2005 2:50:43 PM >

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 3:15:27 PM   
miikaawaadizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot
Homosexuals were consider to be two souled and were held in High Esteem and a very valued segment of the Nation.


those who walk with two spirits still are.

just because someone's Gorean it doesn't mean to say they're not going to have personal feelings about things. they can also be republicans, democrats, libertarians, monster raving loony party members, dislike hurricanes, fast food, and Pee Wee Hermann. the philosophies don't say they should have an opinion in any of those, either - but if they have one, are you going to assume that such opinions are "Gorean"?

it might be an error to judge the philosophies themselves based on the personal likes and dislikes of it's adherents. that road always ends up leading the wrong way.

~miika
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Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord
If I burst into rebel headquarters and find it deserted except for an odd, blinking device, I will not walk up and investigate; I'll run like hell.
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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 3:16:37 PM   
brightspot


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quote:


I am aware of that. If women are the intellectual equals of men, and the playing field has been equalized, then why don't the numbers in MIT admissions come to 50/50? Or SAT scores? Or Fortune 500 companies? If there is no tendency to believe that, on the whole, there are more intelligent men than intelligent women, why are the numbers still so skewed?


What is Skewed is the lack of education opportunities and support for young girls growing up.

*Brightspot

_____________________________

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 3:26:15 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 37420
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Status: offline 		Well,
Just for funnies, kids.................
Having read most of this thread (and not all it went off point quickly, but what's the net)

There is no without, you have your own forum.

Stand and deliver!

Ron


_____________________________

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 3:28:59 PM   
krys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot
Who ever said they were the most common? But they exist(ed)!


In far fewer numbers, which I think kinda goes toward my point.


quote:

Would like to address the following...
Being part Blackfoot Native American, Native Culture is known to have embraced all the Tribe, unless something very dishonorable was done., Homosexuals were consider to be two souled and were held in High Esteem and a very valued segment of the Nation.

*Brightspot


And? (By the way, before you climb your way back up on your high horse, I have been with Master for a little over a year. I have been with my girlfriend for a little over 15 years. Not all Goreans have negative views on homosexuality.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot

quote:


I am aware of that. If women are the intellectual equals of men, and the playing field has been equalized, then why don't the numbers in MIT admissions come to 50/50? Or SAT scores? Or Fortune 500 companies? If there is no tendency to believe that, on the whole, there are more intelligent men than intelligent women, why are the numbers still so skewed?


What is Skewed is the lack of education opportunities and support for young girls growing up.

*Brightspot


Your profile has your location as Chicago brightspot. I'm from Illinois originally and one thing I definately did NOT lack for growing up were educational opportunities. Neither did any of my numerous female cousins. And we all got LOTS and LOTS of support. And were more likely to be admitted into certain programs that required a minimum number of female participants toward the goal of correcting the previous imbalance. But the days of opportunity for an education not being available to women are over.

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 3:29:56 PM   
miikaawaadizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot
What is Skewed is the lack of education opportunities and support for young girls growing up.

I'm not so sure that applies to girls alone, the general level of education has gone downhill rapidly in recent decades - governments don't like an educated population, it causes them all sorts of problems with trying to BS the world. an educated population isn't content to sit and watch 30 second sound bites on CNN and consider it all they need to know :P

back when people were home schooled, they were schooled in the practical things they needed for their environment, mostly because those things were kind of important for staying alive, eating, and the like. the environment has changed, and instead of "targeted" education, what little education is available now is so general and so meaningless that universities are having to do courses in english language and mathematics for freshmen.

it's too simplistic to point out such things as being "gender" issues.

~miika
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Silence is the most perfect expression of scorn.
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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 3:47:51 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
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quote:

those who walk with two spirits still are.


Well.. I happen to live in the inner city reality, and have worked
with homeless youth in Minneapolis, where a large portion of Ojibway and Lakota reside.
I am sorry to say, there is a lot of Native gay youth ostrisized from their family of origin, things have altered in the Native communities, Homophobia thrives throughout the human races.

*Brightspot

_____________________________

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 3:58:49 PM   
miikaawaadizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: brightspot
Homophobia thrives throughout the human races.


not really, homophobia is another societal issue, in this case a religious-induced one. the People were immune to it until anglos showed up and decided their way was more "civilized" ...

in the case of the Immortals, it wasn't homophobia, it was a case of being scared shitless :P although one curiosity of note ... the most effective and deadly, albeit berserker, fighting units throughout history have consisted of homosexuals. there might actually be good reason to be scared - historically, homosexual units have kicked ass, as well as ploughed it.

I don't believe I just said that :P

~miika
proud collared and marked property

Motivation is everything. You can do the work of two people, but you can't BE two people. Instead, you have to inspire the next guy down the line and get him to inspire HIS people.
Lee Iacocca

(in reply to brightspot)
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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 4:20:37 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Ok, but I think you mis-use anglos in this statement.
Unless you are want to agree to harsher terms.

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 4:41:22 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1471
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal and Hello I have not read all the threads but I am going to add my view. I do think of myself as Gorean, that means as in the books I hold Honor and Respect above all. Something I think is lacking in our modern world. I have been on the end of some that hosility, one event was at a local dungeon party where I was the subject of some rather unpleasent comments about being Gor by a non Gorean. Later the Owner came and spoke with me about the incident and remarked how out of line the person was and how professionally I was.

I do feel that John Norman in his Gor stories did try to express a view that one gender did dominate another, in Gor it was men over women. Does that make it a "Mans' World", to me no, when I hear that I make the comment, "Look behind you there is 10 foot Cockroach" Gor as it is know only is because the Gods say so and can change their mind. Personally I have had several experiences in real time of women in power who hold a desire to be subserviant to a man, in effect his slave. I do not think all women hold this, I am just saying there are, one was a 60's radical Feminist.

In closing John Norman has stated over and over he never intended to have his books become the bases of a life stlye. Yet I think of myself as Gorean. But I also know there is a world out there that has as many views are there are people, but Gorean or not, We can be Honorable and show Respect to each other.

I Wish You All of You Well

Nosathor
Of the Glorious City of Ar

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 5:06:30 PM   
minx01


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What surprises me in this thread, is that all seem to be looking at how it was, or how they 'think' it was in the past. Sure, the past is important to know the future, as we have all been told over and over in history class, and I tend to agree with that 'lesson'.
But haven't things been changing much faster for the past century than in all centuries before?
Can we still go from the past to explain things that happen now?

Some that posted have pointed out that physical suppremacy has a lot, if not all to do, with how Man/Women interacted in the past, and how they were dominant/submissive.
I may have not seen it due to reading too fast, but has anyone talked about how the 'hunting' only contributed a small part to the overall needs of the whole clan? So, if the being provider part, should play a role in defining who was or was not the dominant one.. well... I have my own, maybe strange ideas, about this.

Sure... looking at it on a superficial level, then it has probably most of times been the males that have been the dominants. But what if we looked a bit deeper, further? If we looked at how the people then kept fed and healthy?

As far as I know, there aren't many places we can go look at this: what held the society together back then, and who contributed the most. There has been plenty that has been written about it, though... or so I think, based on that which I read and was taught in school.
As for current times: we do see where communities fail in providing, fail in their lifestyle.
Most of times it's not because of how the , in most posters eyes, 'inferior' women fail.. most of times it is because the males don't find a 'good' way to fill in the gap that has been left from not being able to hunt anymore.

To me, there seems to be a very huge feeling of not knowing anymore what their purpose is... so they fill up their days with hanging around and, well... doing nothing, almost? For that is how I have perceived everything that I have read, heard and thought about.

And that brings me to current times, where physical overpowering isn't really tolerated anymore, and where we tend to pride ourselves in the fact that we are 'civilized'.
Does any of what was posted about dominance as a natural thing, still hold true in the current time?
Is it such a strange thing to keep in mind that we are not living like our ancestors did?
Is it such a strange thing to see and accept that things change when circumstances change?
These days, it has been commented upon repeatedly that women seem to cope better in life than men do, when things get difficult.
We can't know that for certain from the past, for we can't just go there and observe. We can only go from what has been written then or what we extrapolate from what we find.
We can, however, observe the here and now.
Would it be so much of a thought leap to also draw conclusions from that which we can observe?

I dare say that dominance is a feeling, as if submissiveness, once it isn't supported anymore by sheer physical and social overpowering.

This is my first post, and I guess that I could have chosen a less 'difficult' topic... but here goes... lol ...

Minx

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 5:09:25 PM   
LordODiscipline


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nosathro

Nosathor
Of the Glorious City of Ar


I just want to know how to get there.... is this one of those "over the rainbow" things?

~J

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 6:41:34 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

Ah, yes. It's the "I will reply to you with platitudes and thinly veiled ad hominem attack, but will not dare to challenge the substance of your assertion" sort of reply. I had expected better of you. I stand corrected.


OK, one more time. I don't know you well enough to attack you personally, nor would I care to waste public bandwith to do so even if I did. What I don't want to encourage is this section becoming a never ending debate between those who hold Gorean views and those who want to challenge Gorean views. I'm sure you're just itching to debunk how I live, and what I think, but I've done that to death. There are no more dead horses that I haven't already beaten. As I've said (twice) I have given my views on the substance of your assertion at length elsewhere on these boards. If it makes you feel better to think that I don't dare challenge you rather than go look at what I've already said about the kinds of assertions you are making, that's fine.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/25/2005 6:44:04 PM >

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 7:31:10 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
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quote:

homophobia is another societal issue, in this case a religious-induced one. the People were immune to it until anglos showed up and decided their way was more "civilized" ...


Yes, I agree with you on this, anglo invasion definately changed the Red Way....but changed it has.

Just out of curiosity how is interracial coupling received within Gorean communities?

*Brightspot

_____________________________

"Comedy is NOT Pretty!" ~Peter Nelson

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RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/25/2005 7:40:54 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Then the "monkey" reference must have been a momentary slip of the tongue (or keystrokes, as it were). Of course, it's always possible that you consider that a term of endearment.

Your apology (of sorts) is accepted. Carry on with whatever it is you were doing.

John

P.S. - At no time have I ever challenged your Gorean views. In fact, to my knowledge, at no time in any of my posts in this thread have I even made reference to Gor. I simply endeavored to engage you in intellectual discussion regarding (false) assertions you portrayed as factual history. Documented history and/or logical argument is not a matter of opinion, nor of one's lifestyle choice, and I do not blame you for declining to dig yourself into a deeper hole.

< Message edited by Rover -- 9/25/2005 7:42:45 PM >

(in reply to Leonidas)
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