What's with the hosility from without

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What's with the hosility from without

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All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Gorean Lifestyles >> What's with the hosility from without

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What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 7:33:23 AM

WarriorPoet2005

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

Brothers and collared ones:

You know folks.. I've spent the last couple of days using some spare time cruising around the internet checking all this out. I don't understand something and perhaps the community could shed some light.

What's with all the hostility from outside this community? Last time I checked, expressing views in a like minded community and lifestyle choices as long as they are safe and consenual, are the business of those involved.

I'm pretty sure the right to do so was one of the reasons I voleteered for military service. To ensure those and other rights and freedoms were protected.

When did living One's life with a code of honour (a Warrior's code) a sense of Brotherhood and a RETURN to the natural order of human existence before the politically correct left fucked it all up... become a bad thing?

Now with that said... I would (and again, have volunteered to do so) lay my life on the line for the right for these people to express thier opinion. I just don't understand the thier need to do so. Just like the TV.... if you don't like what you're watching turn the damn thing off.

Do these people actually think this community believes they live in some fantasy land? The people I have met here all seem level headed, very well grounded in reality and have simply made a lifestyle choice outside the mainstream and adopted a life philosophy that rings true for them.

I'm sure there are practitioners out there that take things to an extreme as there are in ANY community. And just as normally I'm sure, they are soon found out and shunned by the larger entity.

Some illumination on the subject would be appreciated.

And for the love of whatever Deity you worship... Leave the Trekkers and Trekkies out of it!

Another work of fiction that promotes personal honour, loyalty, truth, tolerance and a Warrior Code... (gotta love Worf) Would could and should we all follow such a path.

Post #: 1

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 7:54:48 AM

tarnishedhalo777

Posts: 119
Status: offline

in some ways I find in my career/walk thro life..

that people shun anything that has to do w/ honor,conviction and strength.

I see fast food /drive thro ethics/mentality
instead of hard work and achieving goals..

people want their desires filled immediately...they are going to be the one w/ the most toys even if the toys sit unused...
they want these things with out the work involved with gaining them...

they think they will be fulfilled emotionaly/spriritually by amassing things,by having more...
not realizing that character/honor/self-respect is where a sense of accomplishment/pride should come from.

lol my societal rant for the day....

_____________________________

I will not die the death of loneliness by being afraid to love and afraid to get hurt. I will not commit figurative suicide by leaving my potential underdeveloped because I am afraid to take risks.

(in reply to WarriorPoet2005)

Post #: 2

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 8:35:12 AM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

In many cases, it's because Goreans adopt a "my scene is better than your scene." While you may not present yourself that way, the statement

quote:

When did living One's life with a code of honour (a Warrior's code) a sense of Brotherhood and a RETURN to the natural order of human existence before the politically correct left fucked it all up... become a bad thing?

leaves a sour taste in my mouth on a number of levels.

A major reason why I get along with the Goreans here is that they have repeatedly indicated that to them this is _a way_ of life, not _the natural order of human existence_.

They have their route and I have mine. It's a mutual respect thing.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to WarriorPoet2005)

Post #: 3

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 10:19:42 AM

Demetri

Posts: 2
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

Very interesting reading on the reply to this one mans post..But anyway,I enjoy the ways John Norman has put a prospective point to a culture in a fantasy world..Its a matter of simplicity,either be sane and have common sense,or be looked upon as an idiot thats never figured out that reailty oversees fiction/fantasy...Theres nothing more beautiful then to see a slave in a postions of many ways,nor is there anything more beautiful then to watch a slave do a serve of some form noted in the books..The slave I am with as I speak likes to explore different positions and ways that is read in the books,but we both know its fiction..Its all in the mindset of the Master and the slave on how to use this culture in everyday life..Only sad thing is,would this world we live in now be a better place if Gor really did exist?Anyway,do enjoy people and have fun,let your mind explore and take on new ideas,dont allow it to be closed off........

(in reply to WarriorPoet2005)

Post #: 4

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 10:25:51 AM

Demetri

Posts: 2
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

An add on,yes some words are mispelled..Just shows I am not perfect and human.lol...And the vanilla thing under My name.What the ?Have no idea on how that got there nor do i care,but do want to know what caused it to be there.......lol.Yep,I like to know things and about things I dont know about.....Anyway,do enjoy...

(in reply to Demetri)

Post #: 5

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 10:51:05 AM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

It's a combination of things.

First off, in addition to those of us who have made a way of life that we call "Gorean", there are those who just like to role-play as if they lived on the planet Gor. Those who have come in contact with the latter can't help but come away with the impression that we all engage in fantasy role-play. It's a stereotype, just like the stereotype that society in general has about those who are into "whips and chains". Like any stereotype, it only matters to those being stereotyped to the extent that they care what those doing the stereotyping think. Like Satchel Paige said: "It's mind over matter. If you don't mind, it doesn't matter".

Secondly, there are some very real differences between Gorean bondage and what is held to be inviolable wisdom in the BDSM world. No safe-words, no contracts, no time "out of character" to discuss what's going on as equals, instead of in the master and slave roles. Folks who have been steeped in the BDSM culture think that what we do isn't "right" because we don't conform to their norms of behavior.

Third, there is a tendency in the BDSM world to "extremist envy". Because it is a culture that prides itself on being an "extreme" form of sexuality to some degree, more extreme must be better than less extreme, right? If you stick your subbie full of 29 gauge needles, but I use 11 gauge, I win! On a board like this, when weekend warriors who only engage in D/s during the bounds of a "scene" see us discuss the kind of absolute bondage that we engage in with our slaves, they feel that pang of extremist envy, and the need to bash us as living in a fantasy world and espousing things that one couldn't possibly live.

Fourth, the general BDSM culture sees domination and submission as "kinks". In other words, a personal proclivity of individuals. We see domination and submission as a natural, evolved aspects of masculinity and femininity respectively. This is, to say the least, a politically unpopular point of view. Holding politically unpopular points of view is always a good way to get invective hurled at you in an effort to get you to conform to the fasionable group-think du jour.

Finally, as John Warren said, some of us are indeed elitist assholes who do think that we have a better pot to piss in, and dearly love saying so, especially to those who make some attempt at ridiculing us. Can't really blame those who are the targets of it for resenting it, anymore than one can blame you for resenting their hostility toward Goreans.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/24/2005 11:10:44 AM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to WarriorPoet2005)

Post #: 6

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 11:34:20 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

My reasons?

largely what John Warren said. Also the constant insistance that the way Gorean individuals live is the most correct, most natural, and best way to live and for individuals to interact.

The insistance that women are made to be subservient and men are made to be dominant.

The inability of many Gorean individuals online to accept that other forms of power exchange are none the less power exhange.

And, for me at first, the lack of ability to understand Gorean slavery. This one has been rectified, though my reading of individuals here many of who -don't- fit the problems I have above, or at least aren't crazily vocal about it.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 7

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 11:49:38 AM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

Of course My Way is better than Your way! .......................For me!

It may not be any better for you than your way is. Just as youw bay may not be better for me.

So having settled that point, lets broach a couple of casks of 5 year old spiced meade and drink to our ways and then lets drink again for the tollerance and respect we give each other and our respective ways.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

Post #: 8

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 11:52:36 AM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5085
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

In many cases, it's because Goreans adopt a "my scene is better than your scene." While you may not present yourself that way, the statement

quote:WarriorPoet2005
When did living One's life with a code of honour (a Warrior's code) a sense of Brotherhood and a RETURN to the natural order of human existence before the politically correct left fucked it all up... become a bad thing?

leaves a sour taste in my mouth on a number of levels.

A major reason why I get along with the Goreans here is that they have repeatedly indicated that to them this is _a way_ of life, not _the natural order of human existence_.

If I felt any hostility toward Goreans, what John said would be the reasons.
With all due respect WarriorPoet2005 you sound very hostile and elitist yourself with this rant, which pretty much begets negative reactions IMHO. M

_____________________________

"touching was and still is and will always be the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 9

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 12:00:42 PM

WarriorPoet2005

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

JohnWarren:

My apolgies for your sour taste. I intended no offense to anyone. In reading my original post it would appear that the comment that you have taken exception to was not clearly made and as a result, not understood.

When I speak of the natural order of human existence I speak not of lifestayle choices or the following of one philosophy over another. I meant it in it's most simplistic terms, born of our own past. Throughout history from our earliest recorded times the male has been the Warrior/Hunter/Leader. Sometimes for the greater good of mankind, too often with disasterous results.

I do not think that the philosphy of Gor and the works of fiction contained within are the natural order of things in more than the basest sense as described above. It is, after all a fictional tale.

I guess every community whether it be here, a religeous sect, politics or other form or grouping of people have thier proponets who will yell at the top of thier lungs that they are the best or that they are "right". Again, born out by our long and sometimes troubled human history.

You are absolutly right. The following of ANY philisophical bend is a choice. The people I have met here and spoken with outside this forum have indicated that one of the reasons they were drawn to it was because for them, it felt natural and it spoke to them on a very deep almost primal level. They have also been warm, welcoming and I have not heard to date (although I have, admittedly, not been here very long at all) anyone here trash talk anyone elses beliefs or way of life. I'm sure there are some. I doubt this community is exempt from having them.

I have however read several dissertations reagrding how others think Goreans Masters hurt, maim, abuse and sometimes even kill, they live in a fantasy world of make believe and the women who choose to be collared are crazy.

I don't see it. I see some wonderful people who have chosen a life path based on some laudable personal goals, individual consensual choice and the point to my post was why the vindictive attacks?

Just for the record. My choices in lifestyle are personal and made for persoanl reasons just as anyone else's are. Mine are no better or worse than anyone else's and they are free to express then in the manner they wish. Wether I agree with thier choices or not is moot and quite franky not for my unsolicited comment. That includes anyone, anywhere, which was also the point of my original post. I was simply looking to learn what it is about this lifestyle/philosophy that seems attract so much vective comment.

It would be a pretty boring world to live in if everyone thought the same way. I laud your ability and desire to discuss issues outside your personal beliefs in a thoughtfull manner and with mutual resect. My issues are with those that don't, won't or can't

Regards

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 10

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 12:05:27 PM

DesertRat

Posts: 2774
Joined: 11/29/2004
From: NM/USA
Status: offline

Just want to throw this in for consideration: Could it also partly be the natural (but regrettable) tendency for humans to dislike their neighbors, even though they're almost exactly the same? Like Michigan/Ohio, Texas/New Mexico, Arabs/Israelis, and Indian tribes in California? I am not aware of any objective studies of this phenomenon but, based on my personal observations, it sure seems to happen a lot. It's as though everybody just needs to have someone to dump on.

As I said, I just wanted to chime in with this possibly irrelevant comment.

Bob

(in reply to WarriorPoet2005)

Post #: 11

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 12:45:24 PM

WarriorPoet2005

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

Well.... It seems I poked the hornet's nest. Thank you Leonidas for actually reponding with some commentary which was the point of the post... Personal education. Ironbear.. I agree... mead all around and let's all respect each other's beliefs and play nice in the sandbox!

Desertrat.. there may be some truth to what you say.. It would make an interesting study

And of course the best for last BlkTallFullfig:

My "rant" as you call it, was directed at the mainstream emasculation of the male gender over the past few generations. It was against people telling me what is right and wrong in my personal belief set and insisting that I must go against my nature in order to be "normal" and to fit in. It was niether 'elitist" or "hostile" against anyone in paticular, nor was it an attack on anyone else's lifestyle choices. It was however, directed at anyone who felt it necessary to tell me that what I believe is wrong and that I should be "this way" or think "this way" because that is what they think is in my best interests. Quite the opposite of elitist don't you think?

And ok... I'll give you the hostile part....but only in a very gerneral sense.

(in reply to DesertRat)

Post #: 12

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 1:22:05 PM

Angrylibrarian

Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline

and heres another reason people are hostile.

I have met a lot of girls trying to be gorean slave girls and almost all (I repeat, almost all) the stories I hear about the so called men they are obeying and what they tell them about their 'rights' and lack of them is utter bullshit and often abuse.. I've got barely a handful of anecdotes about good men with brains and a hundred stories of guys who are just dickheads unable to deal with their mommy issues.

That's a part of where the hostility is coming from, constant dumb asses saying they are gorean and not knowing anything about being a good human being much less a good master. Until we get a serious manuscript on Male Gorean ethics concerning treatment of women we're gonna be plagued by assholes and hostility from outsiders.

A plague of assholes, how fitting for this era in time.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

Post #: 13

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 2:04:28 PM

WarriorPoet2005

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

I agree absolutley!

There are "dickheads' in every facet of society be it business, politics (more than most) religion and if you read the "regular" D/s M/S personal ads you will find a lot of women who have run into these same types of guys. Mainstream ads as well.

A code of ethics... Smashing idea

So gentlemen... I believe the gautlet has been thrown... Anyone care to pick it up?

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)

Post #: 14

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 2:26:20 PM

brightspot

Posts: 3052
Status: offline

quote:

My "rant" as you call it, was directed at the mainstream emasculation of the male gender over the past few generations.

It is interesting how you experience the empowerment of women over the last few generations, a mainstream emasculation of the male gender.

I find this a crock of crap and the means for excuses...talking mainstream I believe most men have welcomed the equality of women without losing their Maculinity. I even know Gay men who have their masculinity well intact.

Saying that, I guess that is one of things that causes me the lack of respect for your community.... Your views, ignorance and ostracism of Homosexuality.

*Brightspot

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(in reply to WarriorPoet2005)

Post #: 15

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 2:56:33 PM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

It is interesting how you experience the empowerment of women over the last few generations, a mainstream emasculation of the male gender.

I find this a crock of crap and the means for excuses...talking mainstream I believe most men have welcomed the equality of women without losing their Maculinity.

Sounds to me like you and he differ on your definitions of what is and isn't masculine. As a man, maybe he rejects a woman's definition of manhood. Seems reasonable to me, but then, I can be pretty unreasonable at times. I'm sure that he finds your take on the situation to be a crock of crap too. Everyone has their little crosses to bear, I suppose.

quote:

Saying that, I guess that is one of things that causes me the lack of respect for your community.... Your views, ignorance and ostracism of Homosexuality.

There isn't an official, or even consensus Gorean view about homosexuality. Goreans differ in their views about, and tolerance of, homosexuals, just like the general population. I should probably chide you for your views, ignorance, and ostracism of Goreans, but nah. Don't care enough.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/24/2005 3:00:43 PM >

_____________________________

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Leonidas

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Post #: 16

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 3:10:09 PM

Leonidas

Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline

quote:

That's a part of where the hostility is coming from, constant dumb asses saying they are gorean and not knowing anything about being a good human being much less a good master. Until we get a serious manuscript on Male Gorean ethics concerning treatment of women we're gonna be plagued by assholes and hostility from outsiders.

Really? I don't hear that a whole lot from outsiders. I hear that more from insiders. In my experience, anyway, the complaint that men who haven't the first clue gravitate toward calling themselves Gorean because they think that our slaves are easy pickings comes from Goreans.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)

Post #: 17

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 3:30:06 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10836
Joined: 6/22/2004
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I'm not hostile to Goreans. I'm hostile to people who believe that their way is the "natural order." You can't have it both ways, WarriorPoet. Either you believe that everyone's choices and culture are equally valid, and then you can request the same respect for your own choices that you accord to other people's--or you can insist that your way is the ordained way of the universe, and people who don't agree with you will consider you a small-minded bigot.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WarriorPoet2005

When did living One's life with a code of honour (a Warrior's code) a sense of Brotherhood and a RETURN to the natural order of human existence before the politically correct left fucked it all up... become a bad thing?

(in reply to WarriorPoet2005)

Post #: 18

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 4:28:49 PM

pp1948

Posts: 25
Joined: 9/19/2005
Status: offline

some people think this is a fantasy lifestyle and we are all fruitcakes from a different planet. They just don't understand us!

(in reply to WarriorPoet2005)

Post #: 19

RE: What's with the hosility from without - 9/24/2005 4:37:16 PM

WarriorPoet2005

Posts: 23
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

Brightspot:

It appears that some people are missing what seems to have become the main theme here and that is everyone is entitled to thier own beliefs and lifestyles, free from being trashed by others from other groups.

I entered the realm of the Goreans to learn and interact with the adherents here as this lifestyle draws me. I did not enter "Ask a Mistress" as I have no interest there. I would certainly never enter and then start trashing something I know nothing about and make assumptions regarding thier/your lifestyle, whether I agree with it or not.

Please have the same courtesy and good manners. I have to say I am suprised that in a community (some of the non Goreans who have posted here today) that is considered outside the mainstrem, that the tolerance and acceptance for alternative lifestyles and differing opinions and views is so narrow and limited and they feel they have the right to trash.

We obviously have a very different opinion of what is masculine. But once again, you are entitled to your opinion. Just don't try and make it mine or attempt to berate me for it. It is the height of bad manners.

To all my new friends here and the ones I hope to make... I see what you mean

Leonidas... You rock brother

(in reply to Leonidas)

Post #: 20

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