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Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 6:50:10 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 20691
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: online 		Tal to the Free,
Greetings to the property,
(and every time I do that, I hope I do it right.)

If I may, something came up on another board that I would like to ask about.  The following is a repost from another thread.  I post it only for background information.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


quote:

ORIGINAL: LordShadow

As I said, I try to keep them from harms way. I have limits as to what I will inflict, if you break your toys you can't play with them and broken bones/scars tend to lower their value which makes them more difficult to sell should that time come.
But, if I wanted her arm broken, it would get broke, and she would present it to me for that purpose.




I'm a huge fan of the primary rule that I have with My current sub.  That rule being "Protect My Property".  While I'm obviously not Gorean, I am surprised that the two worlds are so different.  Telling My boy to protect My property, also includes unrealistic or harmful actions by Myself.  Sure, I hurt him, but I don't harm him.  I certainly wouldn't break his arm or do any other activity that would intentionally require medical treatment, and since you don't know Me (your name isn't familiar to Me, so I'm sure Mine isn't to you) I'd like to assure you that he isn't treated lightly in the areas of pain. 

What say you to the comment?



I've come here to ask if the philosophies are so different, between My world and those who identify as Gorean?



_____________________________

"Come to the edge, She said.
He said that he was afraid.
Come to the edge, She said.
He came. She pushed him,
And he flew . . ."


http://NE2010.net

Now running "Lady Pact's World".
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 7:11:48 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Pact,

Yes they are very mucbh different, but very diverse as well. What Shadow posted is not an untruth, but that does not mean that every owner would do such a thing. I feel before I needed to go to such an extreme, I would just get rid of the property, but I do reserve the right to do with my property as I see fit. There is a difference between claiming that right, and actually taking the action. Gorean property have no negotiations, no rights, and they are the ones that often beg to be property. This is why many of us will not accept it right away, and also tell kajirae to be damn positive of who you beg a collar from, because it is the last decision you may make in your life. This is also why many of us that are Living Goreans, get so very angry at the players and wanna be's, and the ones that want to use Gor as an excuse to just be malicious.

You should also know that a well trained kajira is consider pretty valuable property, so take that as you may.

Live well,
Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 7:38:29 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 20691
Joined: 2/21/2007
Status: online 		Thank you, Orion.  You are always informative in your replies to My questions here. 

I suppose I wonder if it might not be couter-productive, once at a certain point.  I find there to be a huge difference in a slave who obeys without question, and yet a Master who would engage in this behavior to prove a point.  This screams of the fine line between control and cruelty, does it not?


_____________________________

"Come to the edge, She said.
He said that he was afraid.
Come to the edge, She said.
He came. She pushed him,
And he flew . . ."


http://NE2010.net

Now running "Lady Pact's World".

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 8:19:39 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Pact,

Cruelty is subjective. Many say that life is cruel, and I always say that "Life is....". Humans will use many excuses to do things, and there are those that will use Gor as an excuse. What most do not understand is the depth of utter control and utter surrender that occurs to the point that a slave would do anything for their owner, and an owner has no reservations about their sovereign ownership.

Live well,
Orion


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Thank you, Orion.  You are always informative in your replies to My questions here. 

I suppose I wonder if it might not be couter-productive, once at a certain point.  I find there to be a huge difference in a slave who obeys without question, and yet a Master who would engage in this behavior to prove a point.  This screams of the fine line between control and cruelty, does it not?



_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 8:34:41 PM   
SimonofTabor


Posts: 123
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: UK
Status: offline 		What LordShadow describes sounds to me rather like wanton sadism, and that isn't Gorean. Yes, the girl is property and the owner can do with his property as he pleases (leaving aside legal considerations that apply here on Earth for a moment), but that isn't the point. The point is that if we're seeking to emulate the mindset and ethos of a Gorean from the books, wanton sadism is not part of that. A relevant quote:

"Perhaps it should only be added that the Gorean master, though often strict, is seldom cruel. The girl knows, if she pleases him, her lot will be an easy one. She will almost never encounter sadism or wanton cruelty, for the psychological environment that tends to breed these diseases is largely absent from Gor. This does not mean that she will not expect to be beaten if she disobeys, or fails to please her master." (Outlaw of Gor p53-54, original edition)

Of course, that's taken from one of the earliest books, but in case anyone is thinking John may have altered that position over the years since he wrote Outlaw, let me quote from a letter written by John Norman less than a year ago, in April 2007:

"Sadism on Gor is either nonexistent, or very rare. That is because there are, on the whole, few border crossings between the countries of Yin and Yang, so to speak. Complementarities tend to be respected. Where nature is revered, understood, and attended to, where differences are recognized and welcomed, even celebrated, humans, statistically, are happy, contented, and fulfilled. Accordingly, in such a world, there is little motivation for intersexual cruelty, envy, resentment, hatred, jealousy, and such. As Gor is a natural world, balances are maintained. On Gor, humans flourish." (Full letter available at http://gorchronicles.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=35)

So, although a Gorean could (again leaving aside legal considerations for a moment) inflict wanton cruelty on his slave, my question would be, "Why would he, if he is seeking to emulate the mindset of a Gorean from the books?" Should he not, instead, be looking to achieve a situation where there is no longer any motivation for that kind of behaviour? The label "Gorean" is not a licence for a man to be an asshole, but a responsibility to be a decent, honourable, human being, to respect nature and live in accordance with that.

The Gorean seeks to build a world in which humans can flourish; in which nature is revered, and attended to; in which there is no motivation for intersexual cruelty, envy, resentment, hatred, jealousy, and such; in which men can be men, and women can be women; in which everyone is happy, contented, and fulfilled. In another letter last year John Norman said, referring to the western world that most of us live in, "If an ideology produces unhappiness, misery, grief, division, sickness, boredom, and hatred, surely this is not a commendation but an indictment." (full letter available at http://gorchronicles.com/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=33). Although that was in the context of comments about modern western ideology, would it not also apply to the Gorean ideology, if those were its effects? Personally I would prefer to be in a world where "Gorean" was a commendation, not an indictment.

Simon

PS: This was written using Fast Reply, and my comments were prompted by the topic as a whole, especially the opening post, and are not a direct response to comments by Orion, despite what it says below.

< Message edited by SimonofTabor -- 3/7/2008 8:43:19 PM >

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 8:58:47 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline 		Tal Simon,

Okay, so John Norman is neither infallible, nor even clued-in. So, what else is new?

As to cruelty, I am a sadist. My girl has been quite fine with that since before I ever heard about Gor.

Whether that makes me a non-Gorean in your eyes, is obviously your decision to make; I readily admit to taking philosophy over fandom any day. I have never claimed to be a disciple of John Norman, either. His books contain some of the same ideas that I have come to see as sensible, but that does not make them a suitable reference for describing external reality, just for describing a philosophy and inspiring a lifestyle.

Back to cruelty, let's revisit the Vikings for a moment. They were a mostly peaceful people (primarily an agricultural and merchantile society), with a good dynamic between the genders, owning slaves legally. One popular recounting regarding these slaves, is of a man that cut a slave's head off with an axe, without provocation. When asked why he did it, he said «He was standing in just the right way for a good chop.»

That's pretty much Thorvaldslanders for you, but either way we live Gorean in the real world, as you know.

Hence, I rest my case.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to SimonofTabor)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 9:31:08 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I readily admit to taking philosophy over fandom any day...

I rest my case.


Your case is philosophy, ours is "fandom". Well that explains it.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/7/2008 9:34:44 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 9:39:38 PM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Your case is philosophy, ours is "fandom". Well that explains it.


C'mon. That's not what I said, and you bloody well know it.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 9:57:45 PM   
SixFootMaster


Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
Status: offline 		Tal All,

Where Norman, in my opinion, fails is to subsume the full spectrum of sadism into a psychological disease without consideration as to whether it occurs naturally, but the assumption that it is inevitably the result of poor experiences, jealousy, bitterness, envy et al. This is simply not so, sadism - and masochism for that matter - both occur naturally to a lesser or greater degree regardless of relationships and life experiences. Indeed there are many references to acts that were done sadistically, by men and women both. The whole treatment of sadism as a negative trait is simple erroneous, and for as much as he got right, that is one thing that is evident from his own words, that he got wrong. Sadism and masochism are capable of being expressed in perfectly healthy and positive ways, and in their own way even raise the value of the slave in the eyes of her master.

Live well,

Six.


_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 10:14:13 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7329
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Simon you miss the fact that Sadism requires deriving pleasure from the act of causing another pain, and Shadow did not mention he would enjoy it, just that he would if he so desired. Norman can feel however he wishes, the totality of Gor is in his fictional work, not in his opinion of life. Your quote says seldom, not never. During the time of that writing, sadism was seen as a mental disorder, and I would have to say that it is actually just part of the natural human condition in some, so there is nothing clear cut there.

I have a slightly sadistic side to me. Has anyone ever laughed at someone falling down? Why? What if they hurt themselves? What about if they grabbed something that had a slight electrical current in it and it shocked them. would it be funny? At what point is that line? Regardless, I feel the sadism issue is a red herring to the primary issue that there are no negotiations with property, period. Now we can speak about good owners and bad owners if you wish, but property is property, it really is that simple to me.

Orion

_____________________________

Die die glauben fordern keinen Beweis. Denen die zweifeln genuegt kein Beweis.


(in reply to SimonofTabor)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 11:06:45 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

C'mon. That's not what I said, and you bloody well know it.


No I don't. I call things as I see them, and you know that.
 
K.
 

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 11:30:42 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

No I don't. I call things as I see them, and you know that.


Well, you have been known to have a sense of humor and/or snarkiness on occasion, n'est-ce pas?

The impression of my opinion you were left with is not congruent with what my opinion actually is and was.

Could you please explain to me how you arrived at that impression, so that I can do a better job of explaining both what I intended to convey and also use the feedback to try to improve my ability (apparently sorely lacking) to communicate accurately?

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/7/2008 11:37:11 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

I have a slightly sadistic side to me. Has anyone ever laughed at someone falling down? Why? What if they hurt themselves?


I think laughing at a spectacular tumble needn't be sadism. But saying so merely illustrates the need for us to have a working definition of sadism here. It seems to me that the preferred definition would be the one intended by the author, if our purpose is to elucidate Gorean philosophy.
 
K.
 

(in reply to OrionTheWolf)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/8/2008 12:12:44 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		Simon put forward the position of the books, corroborated by their living author.
 
You ridiculed this as dependent for its authority on an attribution of "infallibility" to John Norman, as big and red a fish as I have seen in quite a while, and kicked him in the pants for good measure.
 
Okay, so John Norman is neither infallible, nor even clued-in. So, what else is new?
 
The source texts for Gorean philosophy and their author disposed of, you relate to us that you are a Sadist (capped) and that your "girl has been quite fine with that." Well fucky damn, that settles everything then.
 
Whether that makes me a non-Gorean in your eyes, is obviously your decision to make. I readily admit to taking philosophy over fandom any day.
 
Exit stage left onto sword.
 
K.

 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/8/2008 12:41:20 AM >

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/8/2008 12:52:06 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings Master

quote:

One popular recounting regarding these slaves, is of a man that cut a slave's head off with an axe, without provocation. When asked why he did it, he said «He was standing in just the right way for a good chop.»


It also bear to mention that the man asking why was appealed, this was not socially acceptable behavior. Slaves was generally not killed for no reason. They might be sacrificed in religious rites. But even then very often the slaves sacrificed was willing to be, as being sacrificed was the greatest honor a slave could get. The man chopping the head of his slave for no reason was looked on strangely, but ultimately, the slave was property.

The way read i read it it is the same whit Gor. A man that beat his slave often just for the fun of it would be looked at a bit funny, but none would consider him wrong.

May i wish you well



_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/8/2008 1:05:34 AM   
Cherylmazana


Posts: 1151
Joined: 10/4/2007
Status: offline 		What you are failing to consider is the philosophical background of Gor. They are a series of novels with bad guys and good guys, the bad guys could be real sadists, they usually didn’t live long, the good guys were not. It’s about choosing the right way as opposed to the wrong way.

The men that in the latter books treated their girls like shit had women who loved them and enjoyed the treatment, similar to pain sluts etc of BDSM. Even though they were struck you couldn’t have pried the women away with a crow bar.

BDSM definition of sadism is not the same as real sadism, hurting someone for pleasure has nothing to do with hurting someone knowing it will give no pleasure only pain and emotional anguish. BDSM has messed up what sadism used to mean in the same ways homosexuals have bastardised the word gay, changing the meaning until it no longer comes to mean what it once did.

People who are real sadist are mentally messed up and unless there is a medical reason for severe masochism (rather then a light flogging and ass spanking) 90% of the time you will find the masochist has been involved in an abusive relationship often since childhood or has mental health problems.

I agree with Kirata 100% on how your post came across, and as someone who says they are “Gorean” you sure tend to dis him a lot.

Cheryl

(in reply to nephandi)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/8/2008 1:09:32 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

The way read i read it it is the same whit Gor. A man that beat his slave often just for the fun of it would be looked at a bit funny, but none would consider him wrong.


Yes. Wrong in the head maybe, but certainly within his legal right to do as he wishes with his property, even though not typical of the Gorean Master/slave relationship. A girl contemplating a relationship with a man who claims to be Gorean does not expect to find herself with a Sadist who wants to beat her "for the fun of it" instead. 
 
K.
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/8/2008 1:30:45 AM >

(in reply to nephandi)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/8/2008 2:06:53 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings Master

i think it is prudent for a girl contemplating to become a Gorean slave to consider that, that in the Gorean philosophy she is property. And while the law will not allow him to loop her head of and most Goreans i ever heard about do follow the law, he will consider her to be property, not submissive girlfriend but property, and as such if he have a cruel nature, he might visit it upon her and be well in his rights to do so. Yes most Gorean men will not beat their slaves just for the fun of it, but for the potential slave getting to know the man she hope to serve might be a good idea, as the fact is, sadists are out there, and whit them physical or emotional suffering might be part of the service they demand, and as she is property.

May i wish you well


_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/8/2008 2:13:08 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress

i think in a way it is a shame that the clinical term sadism and the bedroom sadism so often get mixed up, perhaps one need a new word for one of the things, for yes it is a huge difference between somone that might like to inflict erotic pain and a real clinical sadist. my mother worked for a sadist once, the clinical type, a woman that liked nothing better than to see pepole suffer she would plot and scheme to mess things up for pepole, just to see suffering, now that individual was sick. Someone that like to play spanky butt, on either side of the whip however, that is not a sick individual.

May i wish you well




_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad


(in reply to Cherylmazana)
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RE: Again, a question from an outsider - 3/8/2008 3:00:06 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 7246
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline 		There is no Gorean "right" to claim to be Gorean and behave otherwise. The characters in the books can be anything and still be Gorean, because they were born there. That doesn't work here.
 
K.
 

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/8/2008 3:43:30 AM >

(in reply to nephandi)
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