A sincere question (Full Version)

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Gem -> A sincere question (9/25/2005 4:34:26 AM)

Brightest Blessings

My knowledge of Gor comes from what I have read on boards much like CM,although I did try and read one of the books once :).

This question keeps popping into my head when I am on boards with goreans, and while I have asked it I have never really had anybody give an answer that seemed to make sense so I will ask it again.

What is the difference between a Gorean way of life and what is normally called TPE in the "BDSM" world? Is it just the name?

I live as a TPE slave ( My owner by the by does not call it TPE because he does nto believe that an exchange happens however that is another discussion, I used TPE because it is the most used") and I was reading something I believe by one of the fine folks here that "BDSM" folks get all riled up when they find out that goreans live by the consetual non-con rule.

So do I,I consented once, no negotiation, no contract, no nothing just the desire to serve this Man. I know many folks who live M/s who live consetual non-cons.

So again please what is the differance in your collective minds? There doesn't seem to be one in my mind except the label you call yourself Gor I call myself M/s.

Thank you in advance

Blessed Be
Gem



Leonidas -> RE: A sincere question (9/25/2005 7:18:30 AM)

quote:

So again please what is the differance in your collective minds? There doesn't seem to be one in my mind except the label you call yourself Gor I call myself M/s.


In practice, not much difference at all between how we keep slaves and what you have briefly described, especially since your master rejects the "E" notion in TPE. What may be different are our ideas about why we do what we do and why it is ethical to do what we do. I wouldn't know that without knowing your master.

It's important to note, though, as I have noted elsewhere, that we don't call ourselves Gorean because we keep slaves, or because of the way that we keep slaves. That is what differentiates us in the minds of the BDSM community, because it is the only overlap between our cultures. So, while the practice of consentual slavery is something that your master may share with Goreans, the differences are likely more than just a label, or maybe not. Again, I don't know your master.




Nosathro -> RE: A sincere question (9/25/2005 5:16:11 PM)

Tal I have to agree with you that there is a TPE Gorean, BDSM or what. Whenever anyone submits themselves to another they submit there power to the will of another. I have heard that some believe in the Gorean Mindset, sadism, i.e. being cruel for ones pleasure, is not the Gorean why. True Goreans are strict with slaves, the slave first lesson is to know the penalty for disobedience, about 10 lashes. Gor is as one real time submisses told me deep in traditions and cermony (one of the reasons I am drawn to it). And a slave learns not only to serve, but why in cermonies the honor the relationship of Master and slave.

I recall in one of the stories a slave was to go to the whipping post, an extreme form of punishment. She was taken there under guard, not because she would attempt to escape her punishment but to protect her from the other slave who viewed her as dishonoring all slaves. "Slaves are happiest when serving their Master"

Be Well

Nosathor

[image]local://upfiles/175252/CAC5E9AA21AB474C8302FCC5A912233A.jpg[/image]



Gem -> RE: A sincere question (9/26/2005 2:55:25 AM)

Brightest Blessings

Thank you for answering and after thinking about your answer overnight I would agree that it is the reason and idea of why we do what we do.

My Owner does not believe it is a woman's place to be at a Man's feet, although he does believe it is mine to be at his feet. ( I hope that is what you were speaking). Also I do not call all men Master just the one who owns me. Perhaps it is also that it pleases him to let my dominant side out with others,

Again thank you for your answer it did give a clearer picture of the line then I had before.

Blessed Be
Gem



Gem -> RE: A sincere question (9/26/2005 3:00:44 AM)

Brightest Blessings

So in your mind the difference is that M/s TPE incorprates S/m and the Goreans do not?

I know many couples who are involved in M/s TPE that do not incoprate S/m in any fashion, I would imagine that their are Goreans who do incoprate it.

S/m or BDSM is how we have sex, not how we live our day to day lives.

Thank you for your response.

Blessed Be
Gem



Leonidas -> RE: A sincere question (9/26/2005 4:14:01 AM)

quote:

My Owner does not believe it is a woman's place to be at a Man's feet, although he does believe it is mine to be at his feet.


Yes. That is a real difference. Your master doesn't view your desire to submit to him to be an aspect of your femininity. He thinks that it is a trait that you just happen to have as an individual. Goreans do think that the desire to submit to a man is a feminine trait resulting from how we evolved as a species. It is a misconception, though, that Goreans think that all women belong at the feet of all men. Some women truly do value freedom over whatever desire they have to be under the protection and control of a man. They should be free. On the other hand, I see men every day that, as a Gorean, I think would be better off in a collar and under the whip of a master. They don't think so, and so it's not likely to happen anytime soon. Gorean ethics regarding freedom (and its counterpart slavery) are different, and probably a lot "harder" than you think.

quote:

Also I do not call all men Master just the one who owns me.


That is also a real difference. Goreans view slavery as a social status in addition to a kind of personal relation. It is because of the high value we place on freedom, and the will to be free as a character trait. Because we place a lot of value on that character trait, we don't consider those who do not have a strong will to be free to be the peers of those who do. Our slaves acknowledge that they are not the peers of the free by addressing free men as "Master". Your master, I would surmise from what you are saying, does consider you to be the equal and peer of everyone except him. That is a real difference between him and a Gorean.

quote:

Perhaps it is also that it pleases him to let my dominant side out with others.


It really depends. The society around us is "classless". Gorean culture isn't. It's never acceptable in Gorean culture for a slave to "express their dominant side" toward the free. She isn't in their class, and so we would consider it to be disrespectful. That isn't to say that there isn't a dominance hierarchy among slaves, though. When I have owned multiple slaves, one of them was typically "first girl" and could be said to have expressed her "dominant side" when directing the other slaves in the chores of the household.

I apprecate your question, and the way that you've conducted yourself here. It's an example of the kind of question I don't mind answering from a non-Gorean. We aren't challenging the validity of each other's ways. Just comparing notes to gain additional understanding. I think that's a fine use of bandwith on a forum like this.







IronBear -> RE: A sincere question (9/26/2005 6:09:13 AM)

quote:

That is also a real difference. Goreans view slavery as a social status in addition to a kind of personal relation. It is because of how we value freedom, and the will to be free as a character trait. Because we place a lot of value on that character trait, we don't consider those who do not have a strong will to be free to be the peers of those who do. Our slaves acknowledge that they are not the peers of the free by addressing free men as "Master". Your master, I would surmise from what you are saying, does consider you to be the equal and peer of everyone except him. That is a real difference between him and a Gorean.


Tal Leonidas,

Your comment raises a point of interest for me. When I own a kajira, naturally she will call every Gorean Free Man and Gorean Free Woman "Master" or "Mistress", however when we are in the company of non Gorean Dominants of either sex, I do not rerquire her to refer to them (the non Goreans) as such as long as respect is shown. I may add that irrespective of the situation she will continue to use the propper address due to all Gorean Frees unless I order otherwise. This is particularly the case when they have expressed that they not be addressed as such. I am curious as to your views are in this.



Leonidas -> RE: A sincere question (9/26/2005 6:57:09 AM)

quote:

Your comment raises a point of interest for me. When I own a kajira, naturally she will call every Gorean Free Man and Gorean Free Woman "Master" or "Mistress", however when we are in the company of non Gorean Dominants of either sex, I do not rerquire her to refer to them (the non Goreans) as such as long as respect is shown.


I see it the same way. A Gorean slave refers to Gorean free as Master or Mistress. As I said above, it is an acknowledgement on her part that she isn't their peer, and that they belong to a class to which her class is subservient. The same isn't really true of non-Goreans, regardless of how they identify themselves in the general BDSM world. An owned slave takes her que from her owner. If her owner accepts the man or woman as a peer (fellow Gorean), the slave follows suit, and addresses them appropriately.

quote:

This is particularly the case when they have expressed that they not be addressed as such.


Someone who identifies as Gorean but isn't comfortable being addressed as Master or Mistress by slaves that they don't own is kind of caught between cultures. They're following the custom of the BDSM culture, where those forms of address are reserved for a slave's owner. Unless the slave's owner says otherwise, she should honor the man or woman's wishes. If they prefer "grand poobah" to "Master", it's really no skin off the kajira's nose.



Gem -> RE: A sincere question (9/27/2005 2:45:51 AM)

Brightest Blessings Leonidas

Thank you for your reply. I see and understand the difference now and while our "worlds" may pass each other and intermingle in some ideas and beliefs, there are definately distict differences.

I am glad you saw my question in the spirit that it was asked, I love discussion and learning new things and sometimes that is hard to come by even on discussion boards :). I look forward to future discussions.


Blessed Be
Gem



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