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John Norman's writing style - 9/25/2005 5:28:27 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		Just wondering what those who live the Gorean lifestyle think of John Norman's writing in and of itself? i've read 22 of the books, and am trying to find cheaper versions of the last 4 (i can't see paying $50 for one, i just can't!), but i've found multiple sections of the books that were just easy to skip over. If nothing else, it's almost an attempt at indoctrination to his readers the number of times "women aren't happy unless at the feet of a man" (and derivatives thereof) are repeated in the books. Plot itself is lacking in creativity-its always another woman discovering herself.

Not to mention, the number of people i've heard (both men and women) who read at least some of these books at a younger age....we're they susceptible to this indoctrination at all?

Please no one take this as a negative perception of the lifestyle....i just personally wasn't impressed with the series.
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RE: John Norman's writing style - 9/25/2005 5:37:11 PM   
miikaawaadizi


Posts: 134
Joined: 11/19/2004
Status: offline 		someone should have shot the editor.

however, as badly written as the books are, they're still useful ... not as the stories themselves, but the philosophies that underly the stories and drive them. the stories are just that, stories, it's the background to those stories that forms the basis of the philosophies. the stories are the forms, the philosophies are the spirit ... I think too many get hung up on the stories themselves, without bothering to figure out why the stories happen the way they do.

just that with later books, you have to wade through a lot of crap to figure out what the philosophies are :P

~miika
proud collared and marked property

Things I'd Do If I Ever Became An Evil Overlord
If my advisors ask "Why are you risking everything on such a mad scheme?", I will not proceed until I have a response that satisfies them.
Peter Anspach, "Evil Overlord"
http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 9/25/2005 5:41:21 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		i'd love to finish the series, if nothing else to say that i've read all of them....but i flatout refuse to pay 50 bucks or more for a book that i end up skipping half of it lol. There's no point.

do you think there's any indoctrination effect (subtle, of course....i don't consider Norman a "cult" kind of guy by any means) that's affected the outlook of some people who read the books at a younger age? After all, his stories are an idealized kind of world, and even though someone younger may have recognized that neither tarns nor Kurii exist, the idea that all women are not happy unless at their Master's feet could have kicked off that thought process?

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 9/25/2005 5:58:05 PM   
miikaawaadizi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: petwolf22
do you think there's any indoctrination effect (subtle, of course....i don't consider Norman a "cult" kind of guy by any means) that's affected the outlook of some people who read the books at a younger age? After all, his stories are an idealized kind of world, and even though someone younger may have recognized that neither tarns nor Kurii exist, the idea that all women are not happy unless at their Master's feet could have kicked off that thought process?


I don't think so, at least not with regards to the majority of the ones that follow the philosophies offline ... as a tool that opens them to the potential that they have within them, the books can give them a "kick start", but I'm of the opinion that, at least for me, all the books do is give labels and definitions to something that is already there to begin with.

as I posted to the "Why Gor?" thread, Gor simply explains me to me, what the books described was things that were already a part of me, were obvious, but had no name, no framework. what was within the books I already knew, and felt, and followed in some cases, even before I had names to put to those things. it simply gave me the identification (as well as the knowledge that those things weren't just "me" being wierd) ... I found my first book (Marauders) at age 10, and begged steel at 16. when I found that book, I found the words that explained those indefinable things within me. but even without the books, I'd still have begged steel at 16. they were the tool, and I think that probably holds true for many others.

I think that the books would only have the effect you ask about if someone is already susceptible to that effect, and if they are, then the books aren't likely to matter - it could be Gor, or Star Trek, or Lovecraft, or Mills & Boon, or Mad Magazine, or anything else. if the books -do- have an influence like that, though, I would hope it would be a positive one for the person involved.

~miika
proud collared and marked property

One OS to rule them all,

One OS to find them,

One OS to bring them all

and in the darkness bind them.

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 9/25/2005 7:11:52 PM   
lisaSea


Posts: 340
Joined: 8/27/2005
Status: offline 		Greetings Masters, Mistresses and slaves,

miika wrote:
quote:

someone should have shot the editor.


Amen. English was my major in school, so getting through the books was a challenge not only due to the typos and grammar errors...but the redundant fashion of writing in general. Not that I don't find the many fascinating uses of tospit to be titillating...but I could have done with less of the descriptive verses that repeated through out the series.

lisa{Sea's}



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RE: John Norman's writing style - 9/25/2005 7:22:39 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		so not to change the topic (my original questions still stand), but is there anywhere online that would sell the last 4 books of the series at a more reasonable price than 50 and beyond? I've been finding them on ebay and amazon for 10 dollars or less usually, but not the last ones in the series. Do they tend to be any cheaper in used bookstores?

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 9/25/2005 7:32:16 PM   
Leonidas


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quote:

but is there anywhere online that would sell the last 4 books of the series at a more reasonable price than 50 and beyond?


You'd have to get lucky and find a second-hand bookstore or individual who had one and didn't know that they could get 50 or more for it on ebay. Most second-hand bookstores are pretty savvy about the internet market for books anymore, so that's probably a long-shot. If you get to know some Goreans in person, one of them might be willing to let you borrow them. Attempts have been made in the past to set up lending libraries, but the books just walked off, unfortunately.

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 8:48:45 AM   
WarriorPoet2005


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Status: offline 		petwolf:

Now here is a topic I can relate to. As one who read the first 8 books around the age of 14, I think I can tell you of my own experience.

I woundn't call it "indocrination" I was fully aware that I was reading fiction. Witnessing the full throes of the feminist movement at the time, I was under no illusions (or hope :)) that the slavery aspect was anything more than that contained in the stories.

Did I think it would be "cool" to have a slave as described in the books? What 14 year old male wouldn't.... Did I ever have the intention at the time to try and find one or adopt a "Gorean" (in the strictest sense) way of life .. no

What resonated for me was the underlying philosophies that could be brought from the books and applied in my daily life, specifically that of the warrior caste.

It was more of an awakening or having a natural part of my own personality given structure.

As I have stated on other posts, I had NO idea that these books had given rise to a lifestyle (for want of a better word) until a week ago.

I hear your frustration at finding the books. I went to my local library this week (I have MUCH more reading to do) as I wanted to re read the ones already read as well as the newer ones I haven't.

To say the reception I recieved upon inquiry was frosty would be an understatment. I was told that they haven't been available through the public library system for many years as they were deemed "unsuitable" and the attitude of the (elderly) librarian who I was speaking to, was as if I was the Devil incarnate.

Gotta love censorship.[:****]

In response to your original question.. Ya.. even at that age (I was a voracious reader) I had the opinion that they were pretty poorly written and edited. The subject matter however, overcame my urge to put them aside.




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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 9:04:00 AM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1471
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal I would never say that the Gor books are right up there with some of the more classicas. They are not the best writen, I find the plots thin, yes I figured out what is going to happen in the next chapter before reading it. What I have found in the books is a way to look at my life and find within myself acceptence.

Yes the books did come out at a time when I was a teenager, Conan and other stories were also being reissued and I read them as well. However John Norman has stated over and over again he does not nor has he indorsed any Gorean Lifestyle group. If there is a 14 year old who thinks what it is like to carry a sword, have a slave and ride a Tarn, I would say his Partents need to talk to him.


I Wish You Well

Nosathor

< Message edited by Nosathro -- 10/1/2005 6:21:32 PM >

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 9:40:43 AM   
WarriorPoet2005


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Nosathro;

You agreed with my point possibly without meaning to. What I got out of the books was that Honour and Truth (to oneself and others) were qualities which I felt were a good philosphy to live one's life by.

I don't ever recall trying to convince my 14 year old girlfriend to be my slave, parking my Tarn at the bike rack at school or wanting to carry a sword.

The books were fiction and is it not the purpose of fiction to take us to somewhere never imagined? What I got out of the books I feel has made me a better person and that a lifestyle philosophy has grown around them absolutley fascinates and draws me.

I find nothing wrong with a 14 year old's fantasies, as long as they understand it's not reality. When they start carrying a sword, try to collar their girlfriend or come up with the statement "dude.. where's my tarn?", then absolutley the suggested conversation is in order.

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 10:38:48 AM   
IronBear


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From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
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quote:

I find nothing wrong with a 14 year old's fantasies, as long as they understand it's not reality. When they start carrying a sword, try to collar their girlfriend or come up with the statement "dude.. where's my tarn?", then absolutley the suggested conversation is in order.


Would be interesting if the parents were a tad more off the planet than the kid was ehh? the father would probably punish the kid for steeling His tarn and recollar the girlfriend.... Hmm the possibilities seem endless.

My first impression when reading the books was that there had been a whole heap of cut and pasting. I do agree with miiks though with her comment that: "Gor simply explains me to me." That was one of my feelings too. I'd find the repititious McDonald's TV adds here more indoctrinating than the books, but like many fictional books in the hands of a child, they can plant a seed. Kids are impressionable. As a child I read all the "Horneblower" series and I believe this is why I have a passion for the sailing Ships of the British Navy of the Nepolionic period and later the "Biggles" series, my passion for flying. I definately blain all the early war films od WW2 ans endless news reels about Korea for my intent on joining the military... Time will tell if those who read the Gor books as kids have the seed planted to enter the M/s lifestyle if not the Gorean one. Not that we'll really know...

As far as the writing style does, it is more like raw bush ballards and folk law being told verbatum and written as such over many ales about a camp fire in the outback. They served their purpose, they made the author money and helped give form and format to some of us. Sufficient to develope a lifestyle from it.

< Message edited by IronBear -- 10/1/2005 10:39:41 AM >

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 12:02:10 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		i would be very interested. it's taken me a year and a half just to find and read the first 22. please message me more info :)

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 12:09:46 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		i agree, if a kid is going around carrying a sword and saying "Dude, where's my tarn" then there are some more serious underlying issues. i meant more that teenagers can tend to be more susceptible to ideas...especially with as much as the sexual innuendos abound in the books. All of how we are raised, and what we are exposed to in society determines who we are, and if they had no friends who were Gorean, and had never read the books (as they aren't exactly advertised), would someone ever think to be Gorean?

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 12:55:11 PM   
miikaawaadizi


Posts: 134
Joined: 11/19/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: petwolf22
All of how we are raised, and what we are exposed to in society determines who we are, and if they had no friends who were Gorean, and had never read the books (as they aren't exactly advertised), would someone ever think to be Gorean?


would they be "Goreans"? they wouldn't have the label to self-identify as such with, not having been exposed to the books, no ... but that doesn't mean they can't be living according to those traits that constitute "Gorean" philosophy. I "knew" I was meant to be slave before I found the books at age 10, I just didn't know what the labels were that described what I knew before I found them all laid out nicely in what lay behind the books - the philosophies. slaves can't be Goreans, by definition, but I followed Gorean philosophies before the books, just as I do now.

with the Free, and those traits that are commonly considered as defining them, I think that they're very capable of being "Goreans" in all but name, without exposure to the books, or the philosophies as a lifestyle in general (although I have to also admit the number of people who adhere to even the most basic concepts involved in being Free is woefully slight :( )

~miika
proud collared and marked property

On two occasions I have been asked [by members of Parliament!], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able rightly to apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.
Charles Babbage

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 1:40:39 PM   
edana


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Status: offline 		thank you...


< Message edited by edana -- 10/1/2005 9:31:28 PM >

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 6:26:10 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1471
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal edana thank you for your input. I have edited my first response. I hope you will do the same.

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Nosathro

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 6:26:40 PM   
Nosathro


Posts: 1471
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: Orange County, California
Status: offline 		Tal Thank you edana for the information. I haved edited my response, I hope you would do the same.

I Wish You Well

Nosathro

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 7:41:13 PM   
MstrssPassion


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From: West Palm Beach, FL
Status: offline 		..

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 10/1/2005 7:48:06 PM >

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/1/2005 8:32:36 PM   
nenakajira


Posts: 221
Joined: 7/14/2005
Status: offline 		I read them all as a teenager but it was after I was introduced to the lifestyle, not before.

I can't say, however, that they influenced my development. The men around me did that. I'm a scifi/fantasy buff and I admit.. any time I read a good book I'd love to be part of that world, while I'm reading it. That is the joy of reading, I think.... putting yourself in another world temporarily. However, as I've never decided to try being a hobbit.. or a vampire.. or a million other things.. I don't think its the books themselves that changed my beliefs... rather.. they helped me figure out some things for myself.

-nena{R}

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RE: John Norman's writing style - 10/4/2005 11:44:48 AM   
Raphael


Posts: 263
Joined: 5/10/2005
Status: offline 		Perhaps that's why the books didn't make so much of an impression on me. I was never lacking the background and the philosophies - growing up I had plenty of that background already. It was the people that impressed me - and later, other people that un-impressed me.

>R

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