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The Problem with BDSM


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The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 6:43:58 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline 		I'd like to start out by saying that I'm not involved in BDSM, and don't know much about it, but here's my problem with it:

The people involved in it seem to be a sad, pathetic collection of variously wounded phyches who, for whatever reason ended up with disgusting proclivities. They humilliate each other. The treat each other like animals and pieces of meat. They call each other vile names like whore and slut and bitch and cunt. They beat each other. They degrade each other. Hell, some of them even piss and shit on each other. In short, they roll around in the slimey underbelly of humanity like happy pigs in shit. The worst part is that they congratulate each other for it, and tell each other that it's OK because it's "consensual".

That's the part that I find really pathetic, risable, and completely out of touch with reality. The notion that any vile, disgusting, degrading, deparved crap that your little pin head can conjure up is alright because someone will consent to it. Wake up! Someone who will consent to being degraded, humilliated, beaten, chained like an animal, called vile disgusting names, pissed on, shit on, or any of the other crap that you people do needs help. And if you want to do any of that crap, you need help too. Consent doesn't make it OK. Consent just means that you've found some poor soul who is as sick in the head as you are.

Human beings are capable of marvelous heights of intellect, art, and compassion. And yet here you all are, wasting a precious human life on these petty, vile, twisted pursuits. Get the hell out of the gutter and do what you need to do to become respectable again.

===========================================================================================

Hmmmm.... kind of sucks being judged, does it not? If these were my views (and they don't happen to be) would they be appropriate material for this forum? I don't think so, and I would hope that the moderators would pull it as quickly as it was posted. But why? It is a valid opinion, isn't it? This is a public forum, isn't it?

It would be a real drag if everytime a thread started the guy above chimed in with "Let me tell you why that's just wrong..." or "There you go with that consent crap again..." and the rest of the thread quickly degenerated into bickering with him. In other words, these boards in general are for the use of the BDSM community, and if they became dominated by outsiders tossing their 2 cents in, they would quickly become useless. What makes any of you think that this Gorean section is any different? Yeah, Goreans hold views that you aren't going to like, just like the BDSM community as a whole holds views that the guy above wouldn't like. He doesn't have to read these boards, and you don't have to read this section. Just keep in mind that when you post in here something along the lines of "what I don't like about Gor is..." you're being viewed by the Goreans here about the same way that you'd view the post above on these boards in general.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/26/2005 6:48:50 PM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 6:54:19 PM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		i dont see anything wrong whit having such wiews and expressing them, some werry angry pepole might respond. i would think it rude but aceptable.

But as to this section, i was an eager partisipant in the debate over the cration of this Gorean section and basicaly it is a place to discuss Gorean lifestyle, in favor of it or not, Goreans and those outside can meet here and discuss, the Goreans ahve no more right to deside what questions get asked on this forum than for example Female Dominats have on theirs. If you want a forum where ever topic must be Gorean aprived go out on the internett and make one.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 6:58:58 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		It would (should, really) only matter if the person giving the opinion mattered to our ego.

And, that is a rather tenuous proposition dependant on the person doing the reading.

Other than that - it is an opinion... and, everyone has one... or, two.

If someone cannot stand up for their opinion and/or statements... if they refuse to read and respond because they are not sure about themselves or their belief...

Then they should truly be curled up into a corner with the shades down and the computer off.

It is a pay to play world in cyberland.

~J

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 7:03:30 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		What world do you live in where people are not judged? We all use our judgment about who we meet, what we read, etc. We judge some people to be honest, others to be dishonest. We judge some people to be experienced, others to be inexperienced. We judge some to be realistic, others to be fantastical. We judge some to be overly sensitive, others to be confident.

I would venture to say that the only man (or woman) who does not judge, is the one who has been swindled out of anything of value.

John

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 7:14:30 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

It would (should, really) only matter if the person giving the opinion mattered to our ego.


Guess I didn't make my point clearly enough. I doubt that many here would be hurt by a post like that. Just distracted and annoyed. It's just noise. We used to call it "signal to noise ratio" in the usenet groups. Some groups had so much "noise" that you couldn't hold a reasonable conversation among the like-minded. As I've said before, this is the "Gorean Lifestyle" section, not the "Challenge and Defend the Gorean Lifestyle" section. It's intended for discussions among the like-minded, just like the boards in general are. If these boards became dominated by posters like the one I emulated and the insuing arguments that they caused, would you hang around? I doubt it. It wouldn't be a matter of your feelings being hurt. The boards just wouldn't be worth your time anymore.

I think that the folks in the general BDSM community ought to be allowed the consideration of having a place for their community to interact with those of like mind relatively absent of "noise" from those hostile to their views. I'd like to think that the presence of this section is a nod by the admins here that Goreans, at least in this one small section, are due the same consideration.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to LordODiscipline)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 7:22:24 PM   
LordODiscipline


Posts: 995
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

quote:

It would (should, really) only matter if the person giving the opinion mattered to our ego.


Guess I didn't make my point clearly enough. I doubt that many here would be hurt by a post like that. Just distracted and annoyed. It's just noise. We used to call it "signal to noise ratio" in the usenet groups. Some groups had so much "noise" that you couldn't hold a reasonable conversation among the like-minded. As I've said before, this is the "Gorean Lifestyle" section, not the "Challenge and Defend the Gorean Lifestyle" section. It's intended for discussions among the like-minded, just like the boards in general are. If these boards became dominated by posters like the one I emulated and the insuing arguments that they caused, would you hang around? I doubt it. It wouldn't be a matter of your feelings being hurt. The boards just wouldn't be worth your time anymore.

I think that the folks in the general BDSM community ought to be allowed the consideration of having a place for their community to interact with those of like mind relatively absent of "noise" from those hostile to their views. I'd like to think that the presence of this section is a nod by the admins here that Goreans, at least in this one small section, are due the same consideration.


Actually, you assume too much.

I have no doubt that some people would not.... I (personally) am not upset by challenging discussion.

Sift through the chaffe and at times you have rational discussion amidst the bedlam.

I Find conversation where I might... in various venues..
This one happens to be Gorean.

If someone posts something rediculous and someone else does not challenge it, I generally shall.

You see - this is a place for people who adhere to Gor to be involved with others... but, the site is not exclusively "Gorean" - so, anyone desiring to see, or to comment, or to reply is invited to join in.

that does not make them any less "valid" due to the section of the board posted in... it simply makes them another poster.

It is simply (as mentioned) pay to play.

And, anyone can play.

~J

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 7:23:29 PM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		No offense, Leonidas, but you seem overly fixated upon the internet and people that you perceive to be intruding upon your domain (similar to those in real time who would naturally be upset if someone were to intrude upon their scene).

Don't you have any real time groups that you associate with, or have associated with over the years? You might find that seeking out other real time lifestylers may better meet your need to associate with other like minded individuals, without the clutter of those with whom you disagree.

If you don't have a list of lifestyle groups local to you, I'd be pleased to forward several.

John

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 8:35:17 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

The people involved in it seem to be a sad, pathetic collection of variously wounded phyches who, for whatever reason ended up with disgusting proclivities.


I see you know me ...

Seriously though, I do see your point. As the person that made the OP that perhaps opened the flood gates (in this case, OP standing for Oh Phuk), you do have my apology.

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 9:11:43 PM   
petwolf22


Posts: 343
Joined: 9/5/2005
Status: offline 		doesnt the original description of this particular section state likeminded and those wanting to learn about it?

no one's excused for being judgmental about others, non- and gorean alike, but i didn't get the impression that if you weren't gorean you weren't allowed to post here.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 9:22:27 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		That was a damned good argument you put forward Leonidas. I like your original anti BDSM statement and your argument following. I enjoy the healthy, lively and informative debates here. It was I’d hoped for. Lets face it we could be exclusively Gorean, but Lawd O Lawd, I’ve been a member of such sites and in the end … Boring!!!! Usually the guy with the largest vocabulary and best Gorean trivia rules the board and only too often he and his mates squeeze other people out. I usually have a problem when sone one yells me down by using 18pt bold black or red to “drown’ everyone else out. Naa saw far too much of that in the MSN Gorean RP thanks. Its easy to read past annoying posts and work with those you choose. When we have non Goreans challenging us, I believe it is good from the perspective that with some anyway, I makes us think.. That is good. I believe in challenging my beliefs on a regular basis. It is one good way to keep the tootsies firmly on Mother earth and stop the chilblains forming on the brain cells.

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 9:31:09 PM   
Angrylibrarian


Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline 		heh. Leonidas You just slay me.

Alex.

rover: come on man you have got to be kidding.

< Message edited by Angrylibrarian -- 9/26/2005 9:32:51 PM >

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 9:39:30 PM   
Angrylibrarian


Posts: 214
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline 		man you know on the second reading of it theres something even deeper here.

on one side theres a group of people agreeing to pretend with each other in order to work out their weird taboos on a weird fake way through 'scenes' through this strange play acting that they even acknowleged is kind of unreal.

and on the gorean side of it theres a group of people who are just saying, "you know what Im just gonna be real about this even if its kin of crazy sounding. I'm just going to do this as real as I can and not fake anything and not stage 'scenes' Im going to live this for real if I can, even though its just out there and people are going to deride me for it."

very interesting.

< Message edited by Angrylibrarian -- 9/26/2005 9:40:33 PM >

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 9:45:42 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:


and on the gorean side of it theres a group of people who are just saying, "you know what Im just gonna be real about this even if its kin of crazy sounding. I'm just going to do this as real as I can and not fake anything and not stage 'scenes' Im going to live this for real if I can, even though its just out there and people are going to deride me for it."

very interesting.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this what the early Christians in effect did??? More or less?

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Angrylibrarian)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 9:53:19 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Seriously though, I do see your point. As the person that made the OP that perhaps opened the flood gates (in this case, OP standing for Oh Phuk), you do have my apology.


Funny thing is, caitlyn, I didn't find your OP to be derisive or disrepsectful. I had some issues with the logic of it, as I said in my reply, but it didn't really strike me as trying to deride Goreans. You didn't start anything. One of the reasons that this section was created is because everytime there was a Gor related thread in the other sections it got sidetracked with the trekkie comments and snide remarks. I think the admins were hoping that by creating a section Goreans might just have the luxury of an unimpeded conversation once in a while. Nah. The fireballers just followed us in here. But that's OK. As Bear points out, it's easy enough to skip over the nonsense. As I said elsewhere, if you put away the monkey chow, the monkeys will go home.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/26/2005 9:54:36 PM >

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 9:58:15 PM   
Leonidas


Posts: 2078
Joined: 2/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Don't you have any real time groups that you associate with, or have associated with over the years? You might find that seeking out other real time lifestylers may better meet your need to associate with other like minded individuals, without the clutter of those with whom you disagree.


There are a number of folks here who know me, and have broken bread with me, Rover. Who here knows you except by your screen name? Anyone? What were you saying in the other thread about veiled ad hominim attacks?

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/26/2005 11:29:23 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline 		In regards to the OP--Were something like that posted in another forum, I would disagree stridently, of course, and perhaps dislike the way that it was presented, but think that this -is- the place for that type of discussion.

Though I might not like the language used, and think that debate would be better fueld by different choices of words, I think that if we're going to discuss all of this, we should be willing to have our desires examined. Partially because we're going to be examined by the world at large, and if we can't present ourselves well to others that are involved in at least slightly similar situations then we're probably in trouble.

I understand what the OP is getting at, I really do, and I definatly see the point. I dislike the language that is used to talk about Gorean individuals here.

But I think both discussions should be open, if only to give individuals a chance to voice their opinions.

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/27/2005 12:36:02 AM   
nephandi


Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
Status: offline 		Well actualy this is not the Gorean domain section, it is the Gorean section, the section to discuss all that have to do whit Gorean lifestyle, that be good or bad. It is the be negative aboute the Goreans section, the what are a Gorean section, the Goreans can meet and talk section, the atack and defend the Goreans section if you will, and whit a few smal exeptions, i have not seen any atacking being done in this section, healthy debate though whit a few coments, on both sides out of line, that is what i have seen.

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/27/2005 4:28:22 AM   
Rover


Posts: 2634
Joined: 6/28/2004
Status: offline 		Leonidas, there's nothing veiled about the fact that:

1. The vast majority of your posts that I've read complain about protecting your online turf.

2. You continually advocate isolation from those with differing opinions.

3. You constantly dilineate between "insiders" and "outsiders". In other words, you're "exlcusive" (which can be done in real time groups, but doesn't work on a public bulletin board of this type) rather than "inclusive".

4. Your needs are (evidently) not being met "here" online to your full satisfaction. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to see that.

And my point is not who you have broken bread with from "here". Breaking bread every several months (or less) with someone from "here" does not provide adequate real time socialization, nor does it expose you to the realities of the lifestyle on a macrocism. Still, that does not seem to stop you from making broad, sweeping statements about BDSM, Gor, or anything else that you've had (relatively) little exposure to.

John

P.S. - Since you asked, I am involved in the lifestyle on an organized basis on a local, regional and national level. If it would help you to add context to my comments, I'd be pleased to list the various people I've broken bread with, events I've attended, groups I've presented to, and organizations in which I retain membership. I presume you would be willing to do the same.... right?

< Message edited by Rover -- 9/27/2005 4:31:36 AM >

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/27/2005 4:30:56 AM   
smilezz


Posts: 2156
Joined: 6/18/2004
Status: offline 		Good morning Leonidas,
I started to read this post and was immediately shocked. I thought that someone hijacked your nic. It did not seem like you. I kept reading and finally understood the point you were making.
I guess i am just one of those people that may not always have anything tangable to say, but sometimes just comment. I have said this before on other sites...forums....threads....i suppose i truly believe that people can and do live certain ways....what may be right for me, may not be right for you. With everything that i am...down to the very core of that...i have never understood, and still do not...why it is that how a person lives should be questioned by another. I don't get it.
I stated in another thread...i could care less if you are Gorean...pink...green...etc. Why is this so important? what brings on the defense of who a person is? maybe i am asking to much to truly understand that. Maybe it's me that needs to understand that people are....ohhh, i don't even have a word for that!

I have rambled enough....have a good day, and thank you for taking the time to read.

~smilezz~

_____________________________

=It's not my fault that when I was a baby I was dropped in a box of Glitter & I have been shinin' ever since=

�*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,.-:* � �*:-.,_,-:* �

(in reply to Leonidas)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: The Problem with BDSM - 9/27/2005 4:40:23 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
I think Rover, with all due respect - your posts have actually just confirmed everything that Leonidas post here was saying. Your post stands up as a fine support example in His statement and the discussion, although I do not think you realise it?

Judgements are based on fact. Therefore they cannot exist in the BDSM context IMO because facts are on individuals.
Assumptions can exist within BDSM because they are based on observation.

Judgements in BDSM = negative and bad.
Assumptions in BDSM = positve and healthy.

Peace and Love

_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to Rover)
Profile   Post #: 20
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