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Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 9:12:03 AM

Angrylibrarian

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"Imaginative Sex
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Exploration and satisfaction through the mental and spiritual aspects of sexual intercourse is the thesis of Imaginative Sex, John Norman's nonfiction 1974 work. As is perhaps expected, Norman's concept of the mental and spiritual involves generally male dominant/female submissive BDSM fantasy scenarios, of which the bulk of Imaginative Sex is devoted to. Unlike the Spartan Gor, where it may be natural for men to enslave women, Norman repeatedly emphasizes the need for BDSM to be safe, sane and consensual. Although a groundbreaking sex manual for its time, Norman was criticized for his parochial focus on maledom/femsub relations in addressing the wide topic of sexual spirituality.

In 1997 Masquerade Press published an edition of Imaginative Sex notable for its lauding introduction by Pat Califia."

I wish I had more time to do a real bibliographic timeline for BDSM literature today because I've been thinking since last night that it is very interesting that we have Mr John Warren now on the site and he recently asked "Why Gor?"

"John Warren, The Loving Dominant, Greenery Press, 2000. ISBN 1890159204."
(thats the first edition date? That can't be right. We need to get you your own entry on wikipedia. You deserve it. Maybes its there and I just didnt turn it up.)

Mr Norman was well ahead of his time and ought to be credited with much more then he is in the world of BDSM especially by his peer authors. If Mr warren is around to read this I was wondering, did you cite Imaginitive sex in your work or refer to it?

A quick mornings search of BDSM literature seems to put Mr. Norman at nearly the beginning of sex instructiuon non fiction. If anyone has a good timeline of sex instruction literature I'd love to get my hands on it.

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 9:22:06 AM

Leonidas

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quote:

A quick mornings search of BDSM literature seems to put Mr. Norman at nearly the beginning of sex instructiuon non fiction. If anyone has a good timeline of sex instruction literature I'd love to get my hands on it.

Yeah. Way, way ahead of his time. One thing that you need to know, though, is that John Lange the man has always disavowed any practice of what he was talking about in that book, or in the Gor books. The book was written to make money. The publisher thought that there was money to be made because literally millions of people were buying and reading the Gor books and the publisher suspected it was because people identified strongly with the male dom / fem sub D/s sexuality theme that is found there.

Many folks in the scene today never read the Gor books when they were popular (they aren't old enough). A lot of the older generation of folks in the scene saw D/s in print for the first time in them, though many of them won't admit it anymore, similar to the way that nobody ever liked Donny Osmond or Bobby Sherman, even though they sold millions of records.

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 9:45:19 AM

Rover

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Leonidas, kudos to you for accurately noting John Lange's (aka John Norman) motivation for having written the Gor series of books, and that he has (clearly, on several occassions) disavowed their use as a model for anyone's lifestyle.

That does not mean to imply that people cannot use them as a lifestyle model, nor that they should not. It is simply a recognition that it would be improper and inaccurate to assign any special meaning to the series as a philosophical metaphor, or reflecting an allegorical treatise of relational dynamics (or intentional "primer" of sorts) advocated by the author.

As is the case with everything in life, people will read into it what they wish. Regardless of the author's intent.

John

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 9:48:09 AM

Angrylibrarian

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Interesting. How bizarre that pat califia would write an introduction to a 1997 edition if Norman disavowed what he wrote in it. Seems odd. The author and publisher normally have to be in on it when they get someone notable to write an intro. You sure he said he doesnt believe that BDSM can spice up a marriage after all? Or is it just that he doesnt believe dominantion and submission are strictly Male to female which is why he had to defend himself when it came out?

Alex.

< Message edited by Angrylibrarian -- 9/27/2005 9:49:49 AM >

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 10:00:34 AM

JohnWarren

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Angrylibrarian
"John Warren, The Loving Dominant, Greenery Press, 2000. ISBN 1890159204."
(thats the first edition date? That can't be right. We need to get you your own entry on wikipedia. You deserve it. Maybes its there and I just didnt turn it up.)

Initial copyright was 1993 and Masquerade's first edition came out in 1994.

quote:

Mr Norman was well ahead of his time and ought to be credited with much more then he is in the world of BDSM especially by his peer authors. If Mr warren is around to read this I was wondering, did you cite Imaginitive sex in your work or refer to it?

I didn't cite it because it was out of print when Loving Dominant was being written the first time, and the Masquerade edition was again out of print when it was revised.

quote:

A quick mornings search of BDSM literature seems to put Mr. Norman at nearly the beginning of sex instructiuon non fiction. If anyone has a good timeline of sex instruction literature I'd love to get my hands on it.

Leatherman's Guide, Larry Townsend, 1983
The Lesbian S/m Safety Manual: Basic Health and Safety for Woman-To-Woman S/M, Pat Califia., 1989
SM101, Jay Wiseman, 1993

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 11:45:19 AM

Leonidas

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He has said that his wife is in no way submissive to him, and that he is monogamous. Beyond that, I've never heard him say, or heard comments attributed to him about it. He says in Imaginative Sex that what a couple does sexually isn't any of anyone else's business. Was he hinting that what he does behind closed doors might not square with what he is willing to say in public? Don't know. I do know that he has never done any kind of public lecturing related to D/s, or said anything in public about his personal practice thereof, except to say, as I said, that he is monogamous, and that his wife is not submissive.

I haven't looked at the masquarade version of his book, so I haven't read Pat's foreword. I'm guessing that she probably just lauded him as a pioneer for writing a book like that a full decade ahead of most of the other BDSM related literature out there. I think it highly unlikely that they know each other.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/27/2005 11:50:12 AM >

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 12:34:38 PM

Leonidas

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quote:

That does not mean to imply that people cannot use them as a lifestyle model, nor that they should not. It is simply a recognition that it would be improper and inaccurate to assign any special meaning to the series as a philosophical metaphor, or reflecting an allegorical treatise of relational dynamics (or intentional "primer" of sorts) advocated by the author.

Holy shit! How did all these words get into my mouth? The Gor books certainly present a philosophical argument, and a model of relational dynamics. They pose a lot of philosophical questions, some of which the author ventures an answer to, and others of which he does not. That is what philosophers and academics do, and have always done. They spend a lot of time pondering different models of ethics and the ultimate definition of very abstract notions like "right" and "good". They are the thinkers, not the doers.

John Lange was just sly enough to get paid a lot more than his peers for doing it by wrapping his ponderings in some sex and sci-fi. Other than the Gor books, Imaginative Sex, and and the Time Slave books, the only other book he ever got published is about 100 pages long, and if you have a really, really good college library near you, you might be able to lay hands on a copy. The copy that I read (in 1998) had been checked out of the UCLA library once (since 1968) before I read it.

John Lange never actually adopted the philosophical musings he put into the Gor books in his own life. Likewise, Thomas Moore never lived in Utopia, and Carl Marx never lived under communism. Lennon and Noyes were the doers. Moore and Marx were just the thinkers.

It was a good try Rover, but sorry, again, no door prize. People can and rightly do identify the philsophical arugment in those books. Whether they identify with them more than the guy who first pondered them and wrote them down isn't really here or there. You don't have to either if you don't want to.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/27/2005 4:26:22 PM >

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 12:47:41 PM

Rover

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Thomas Moore (and other authors in earlier times) sought the cover of allegory and metaphor because to advocate a political or cultural position that contradicted reigning monarchs or religions meant running the very real risk of punishment, torture or death (perhaps all three for the lucky masochists). To my knowledge, such conditions did not exist (and have not existed) for John Lange.

In more recent times, Carl Marx was an open critic of the existing social and economic order, and an avowed (and very public) advocate of a new order (you may have a passing familiarity with his work). To my knowledge (and by your own admission), John Lange has (evidently) taken great care not to advocate or endorse what you see as "philosophy" in his books (and what he sees as money making fiction).

Though it is always possible that Mr. Lange has written to you personally to validate your perception of his books. Or that you are otherwise empowered with the ability to divine this perception in some other, as yet untold, manner.

As I have said in a previous post, people will read into a publication whatever they wish, regardless of the author's intent.

John

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 12:53:14 PM

Leonidas

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quote:

Thomas Moore (and other authors in earlier times) sought the cover of allegory and metaphor because to advocate a political or cultural position that contradicted reigning monarchs or religions meant running the very real risk of punishment, torture or death (perhaps all three for the lucky masochists). To my knowledge, such conditions did not exist (and have not existed) for John Lange.

Um... yeah. Advocating for female slavery in academia in the late 60s and 70s certainly wouldn't have subjected him to any kind of sanctions at all. In fact, I'm sure they would have given him tenure and armloads of acolades.

quote:

Though it is always possible that Mr. Lange has written to you personally to validate your perception of his books. Or that you are otherwise empowered with the ability to divine this perception in some other, as yet untold, manner.

Yeah. I have a special skill that allows me to get the same idea in my head that someone wrote down. It's called reading. They teach it (for free, can you belive) where I grew up. This argument could only be made by someone who has never actually read the books. One of the most common complaints about them (especially the later ones) is how heavy handed, pedantic, and repetitive the author was about the philosophy of Gor and how it differs from the philosophy of the modern west. Have you ever actually read them, or are you arguing in the blind here?

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/27/2005 1:17:25 PM >

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 1:04:08 PM

miikaawaadizi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
To my knowledge, such conditions did not exist (and have not existed) for John Lange.

at the time of writing the books, he didn't have tenure, I believe ... more than enough motivation to be ambiguous, perhaps.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
To my knowledge (and by your own admission), John Lange has (evidently) taken great care not to advocate or endorse what you see as "philosophy" in his books (and what he sees as money making fiction).

if that refers to this comment:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
John Lange the man has always disavowed any practice of what he was talking about in that book, or in the Gor books

John Lange/Norman said disavowed that he practiced any of it, as the post states ... not that he disavowed what he wrote. in fact, John Lange, whilst he has stated he never intended for his works to be the model for a [counter-]culture, has not distanced himself completely, even to having visited online.

Main Entry: dis·avow
Pronunciation: "di-s&-'vau
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English desavowen, from Middle French desavouer, from Old French, from des- dis- + avouer to avow
1 : to deny responsibility for : REPUDIATE
2 : to refuse to acknowledge : DISCLAIM

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
Though it is always possible that Mr. Lange has written to you personally to validate your perception of his books.

I can't speak for Master Leonidas, but I know he has with destiny, one of the old slave girls belonging to GPI ... does that count?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rover
As I have said in a previous post, people will read into a publication whatever they wish, regardless of the author's intent.

there are days when I wish someone would make a society out of the books I wrote ... it is a rather fine society, full of spaceships and ways to cheat about things like physical laws. guess I need an even worse editor than John Lange/Norman had :P

this would be much easier if I just pasted the logs of the discussions in #lobby that you started on the topic of Goreans ... it would be a lot of bandwidth, but it would save everyone having to type it out all over again.

~miika
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Pray that you will never have to bear all that you are able to endure.
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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/27/2005 1:11:53 PM

Rover

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Regardless of Mr. Lange's tenure situation in the late 1960's (a situation that clearly does not exist today), he is a Phd and an author.... someone quite capable of expressing himself clearly, if he so desired. Evidently we will have to wait for the oracle to speak, one day. Until such time as he does, people will find whatever it is that they wish to find in his books.

John[/b]

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/28/2005 4:01:43 AM

Malkinius

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Tal Leonidas....

quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas
John Lange was just sly enough to get paid a lot more than his peers for doing it by wrapping his ponderings in some sex and sci-fi. Other than the Gor books, Imaginative Sex, and and the Time Slave books, the only other book he ever got published is about 100 pages long, and if you have a really, really good college library near you, you might be able to lay hands on a copy. The copy that I read (in 1998) had been checked out of the UCLA library once (since 1968) before I read it.

That is very interesting. You read a book that hadn't been checked out since before it was written? I presume you are speaking of The Cognitivity Paradox; An Inquiry Concerning the Claims of Philosophy, copyright 1970, Princeton University Press which is 117 pages long. Yes, I am looking at my copy of it. You are also leaving out Ghost Dance, a western he wrote and The Telnarian Histories, which comprised three books, The Chieftain, The Captain and The King, published by Questar starting in 1991. Yes, I have them too. I have even read them. (Note: if you ever get a chance to read them, don't do it unless you are reading for completeness of his published works. It is the worst writing he ever did. Ghost Dance is actually, I think the best and cleanest of his writing. The Cognnitivity Paradox was written for philosophers and if you are not trained in the field, can be very hard to read.

You are usually pretty good on these details.

Be well....

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RE: Why Gor? Imaginative Sex - 9/28/2005 5:10:38 AM

Leonidas

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Wow! I was off by two years on a book I read 7 years ago? I am slipping. I didn't think it was a hard read at all, though, and I didn't think that it was really written for a scholarly audience. He seemed to me to be going out of his way to explain what he was saying in "plain english". His thesis is a pretty hard read. You really need to have read Principia Ethica (recently) to follow it. And yeah, I lump all those "other books" together. Haven't read them, having been warned off of them by others before you.

Thank you for taking the time to correct the details. They don't really matter in this discussion, but you are right, it's not good to be sloppy.

< Message edited by Leonidas -- 9/28/2005 5:15:24 AM >

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