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How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/17/2008 4:41:31 PM

xoxi

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Joined: 8/14/2006
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Every so often I'm struck by a pronouncement that one class of people makes about the motivations of another. For example, a slave will say "a Free person would never think this," or a Free person will say "a slave will never view herself as anything but xyz" and it makes me wonder just how valid these pronouncements are.

Is it possible for a Free person to fully understand the thoughts and motivations of a slave? Granted, the obvious answer is "it doesn't matter what the thoughts or motivations are so long as the slave is pleasing and obedient" but whenever I see statements that begin with "a slave is only concerned with..." or "a slave views her value as..." it makes me stop and think.

How well do we understand each other. Understanding another is far different from simply interacting. I'm reasonably sure that the Free have thoughts that they would never EVER share with a slave, and I'm even more sure (being a slave) that slaves have thoughts the Free will never become privy to.

So just out of curiosity, a question for both slaves and Free...how do you imagine the thoughts of the other to work? Have you ever been surprised to learn of motivations you never thought the other would have? And more importantly, does it even matter to you? Do you wonder if the slave who is so devotedly serving you might be longing to be put to use in an area where she could shine, rather than continually making rudimentary mistakes? Or do you just assume in her mind serving is serving, no matter what it is?

From the blanket pronouncements I see of what a slave or what a Free thinks or values, it makes me wonder if we even see each other at all.

_____________________________

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/17/2008 5:18:33 PM

KimberHeaven

Posts: 13
Joined: 10/11/2004
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soshi,

i do have some basic ideas of what i believe a free person might want or expect. . . but to know what they think? oh heck no! for them to presume to know what i think or, worse yet, "should think" is, to me, equally ridiculous - and just as painful. there are plenty of examples throughout the series of Masters spending hours and hours talking with their slaves and sometimes in what would seem meaningless trivial ways - like "create a fantasy about X, Y, and Z" solely for the purpose of getting to know their property in depths that are unfathomable to the Earth man's senses. it's sad that so many people want to live a Gorean lifestyle but that essential knowledge of the other person (this goes both ways, as i see it) is missing. . . i don't know how you can have Gor without it. on the other hand, i don't know if i can get it or will ever have it.

love,
kimberly

(in reply to xoxi)

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/17/2008 5:43:36 PM

ameenah

Posts: 164
Joined: 11/29/2006
Status: offline

Hi soshi,
I've been Master's slave for about 1 and 1/2 years now. The first year was a lot like a roller coaster ride, many times I wondered what the hell was going on, what was coming next, was I going to make it through this ride... and, to be honest... sometimes I wondered why did I ever get on this ride in the first place?    And to be honest, I think part of the reason it was so hard for me was because I really didn't 'get it' in terms of Master's thinking and motivations.

And I certainly don't 'get it' all now, not by a long shot. But I do understand something...   Master wants what is best for me.   I think somewhere down deep, I knew that all along... I had to because I hung on for the ride.

Just the other day I wasn't feeling well, and I mentioned something to him that he had told me before not to mention again..... in other words, I was 'nagging' a bit... but with the best of intentions, of course.   Well, Master laid into me... I got yelled at severely in the car... and I really wasn't feeling well... and I wondered... why is he making such a big deal out of this and being so severe when he knows I'm not feeling well.   One thing leads to another, I get sad, then I fold into myself as I often do... and then he tells me to wipe my eyes and let's continue on our day now. We were on our way to Home Depot to get some flowers and were going to stop for lunch. Well, I have an 'issue' with depression, and I was on my way 'down the downward spiral'.     Master told me to take a small step to do something to move past it... choose... better or worse... which way was I going to go?     And now I am pissed, because he is the one who 'made me' feel this way... I was having a perfectly fine day... I just asked about this one small thing... yes it was 'nagging', I guess, but with the best of intentions... and now he's laid into me severely about nagging and how he isn't going to put up with that at all... etc etc... and now I feel like crap...     and now he, who made me feel like this, wants me to all of the sudden take a small step toward the postive... and I couldn't/wouldn't. I froze.

Master pulled over into a parking lot and made me look him in the eyes.   I disobeyed, I was chastised for it... and now it was time to make myself move past it....     and he gave me a number of options of things I could do... ask, "Master, could you put on the radio?"     or look at the flowers blooming, etc.      His intention and thought all along was not only to help me learn to be more pleasing by not nagging... but also to help me learn to lift myself up and take small steps in the positive direction and stop myself from spiraling down... which I am especially prone to on days that I'm not feeling all that well.

So as to the motivations and thoughts of the Free... well, frankly, I only concern myself with Master's thoughts and motivations.   And I know that His thoughts and motivations revolve around molding me to become increasingly pleasing to Him... and to be that.. .he wants me to be 'strong as steel and soft as silk'.   He is harsh at times, but not without a healthy motivation for me to become stronger mentally, emotionally, and physically.   He pushes me, but never too far... and when I'm 'stuck', he helps me take the next step.

For a slave, in my opinion... this is the only motivation that she needs to know... that her Master's thoughts and motivations have her best interests at heart... even if she doesn't 'get it' at the time.   Once she knows this, obedience becomes much easier... because no matter how things seem at the time, you are confident that Master knows and is doing what is best for you.

Sincerely,
ameenah{Orion}

< Message edited by ameenah -- 3/17/2008 5:47:51 PM >

(in reply to xoxi)

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/17/2008 8:00:05 PM

Maahsatti

Posts: 2579
Joined: 8/5/2006
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Greetings ameenah,

I read your post and several times I notice you putting the blame of your depression onto your master. Not only do I think that is unfare, but also an active way to create a scapegoat for your own uncontrolled emotions.
He may have upset you that day, made you angry , make you feel unheard and unappreciated, since as you state, what you had to say was said with best intentions, but by no means did he or has he caused your depression. I know a lot about depression, because I suffered with it a lot in my life, even now I do on and off.
What I do know about depression for a certainty is that it is a very selfish and self centered illness. When we allow ourselves to be dragged down into the depths of depression, all it really is , is a strong hold of , why me's and I can't cope...it is a me me me, situation.
Often a person who is depressed will look to place blame on those around them and create issues that take the responsability off of the one who is depressed and I feel this action is a symptom of not wanting to let go of their depression. sometimes we get so involved inside of the illness it almost acts like a security blanket of sorts., if you know what I mean.
I very much have enjoyed reading your posts as of late in the various topics and I have even enjoyed reading this post. but, it definately caught my attention, the fact that you stated your Master made you feel that way and caused you to feel depressed. Quite frankly is just another cop out in order to not take on the responsability and be accountable for your own reasons for feeling this way.
What your master did and is doing , quite frankly is brilliant, imo, he is indeed *making* you deal with it and be responsable for it and your ownership of this illness, because if you can not, you can never truly begin to heal and get better. I hope this makes sense to you and that you do not take my post to you as a judgement or a repromand, because simply, it is neither of those. I am just trying to give you a little more insight to this and share what I know of depression as I have had to take the same steps of realizations in order to help myself.
You are absolutely correct, when you say, Master has your best interest in mind and heart, if he did not, then he would not be so firm with you.
If you ever feel like talking, woman to woman, please feel free to send me a message. I am more then happy to offer any help or just to lend an ear and shoulder.

serve and be well,
Mistress Maahsatti

PS, I understand there are forms of depression that is caused by a physical , chemical inbalance, but the way to deal with that form is still the same, only coupled with medication, if warrented.

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 3/17/2008 8:01:46 PM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/17/2008 11:18:30 PM

Leonidas

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I generally like to view slaves from behind, ass up, head down. I don't know why that is, but I personally find it pleasing. There are other ways to view a slave, of course, but I have to confess that is my personal favorite.

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Take care of yourself

Leonidas

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/17/2008 11:20:39 PM

Maahsatti

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Joined: 8/5/2006
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Deleted, cuz I mistook this thread for another.

< Message edited by Maahsatti -- 3/17/2008 11:21:59 PM >

_____________________________

Gorean women, whether slave or Free,know, that their simple presence, brings joy to men,and I cannot think but that this pleases them.
Outlaw of Gor, pg 54

(in reply to Leonidas)

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/17/2008 11:27:39 PM

Diamondfire007

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Joined: 10/27/2007
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I'd like to know how this is done

(in reply to xoxi)

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/17/2008 11:31:32 PM

Aswad

Posts: 6908
Joined: 4/4/2007
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Well, first you say "nadu," then you kick her in the back of the head, then you tell her to stick her ass up when she comes around.

Edit: ... with a bit of practice, she'll land right straight away, but I figure you're new at this.

< Message edited by Aswad -- 3/18/2008 12:27:34 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/18/2008 1:36:16 AM

Cherylmazana

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Actually I don’t care what a slaves motivations are unless I ask them to share what they are. As for being surprised, not often I do not expect people to have the same desires or motivations I do, so when they don’t that’s no great surprise.

I do assume things from peoples posts, in the main they are correct, sometimes they are wrong, and sometimes I am told I was wrong because the slave doesn’t want to admit in public they were their motivations as it makes them look petty or ignorant while everyone who has talked to them off forum knows she is lying.

It’s much easier I personally believe for a woman to see the true motivations of another woman than a man, especially a man who is besotted with her. In the same way it’s much easier for any outsider to see what is happening because the participants are too closely involved to see anything but what they wish to see.

What I expect from slaves is that they at least attempt to be pleasing, that on Gorean forums they follow Gorean forum protocol and that they don’t have hissy fits in public.

Cheryl

(in reply to Aswad)

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/18/2008 6:01:31 AM

ameenah

Posts: 164
Joined: 11/29/2006
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Greetings Mistress Maahsatti,

Thank you for your response Mistress. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Master has told me that there seem to be certain things that 'trigger' the depression episodes. I'm thinking now between what He said, and what you just pointed out, it is better for me to think about things as triggers that might start a downward slide, but not blame the downward slide on it. If that makes sense. The actual 'slide' itself down into the pit is my responsibility to stop... and Master has been trying to teach me to identify when the triggers happen, and then he has been teaching me some tools to use to take little positive steps up to avoid sliding down. He keeps telling me I have to make that decision each time... better or worse..... a little positive step, and then another... or a downward slide. It is within my power to choose. (Often, in the past, I felt powerless over it). He used to give me "incentive" to choose the right way... and that showed me that if I really, really wanted to... I could actually take those steps to avoid the downward spiral (and an ass warming).

Now, he is teaching me that I have the same power to choose ... without needing an 'incentive' to help me. He really has been brilliant in his helping me with this. I know he has helped a couple other girls in the past with similar issues, so he knows what he is doing. And episodes that used to last for days, now only last for maybe an hour... so we've come a long way!

But again, thank you Mistress, for pointing that out.... I appreciate it, and I will think about that today while I work outside, raking and planting a new lawn with Master.

Respectfully,
ameenah{Orion}

(in reply to ameenah)

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/18/2008 6:45:33 AM

ameenah

Posts: 164
Joined: 11/29/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leonidas

I generally like to view slaves from behind, ass up, head down. I don't know why that is, but I personally find it pleasing. There are other ways to view a slave, of course, but I have to confess that is my personal favorite.

Greetings Master Leonidas,

This is Master Orion's favorite view as well...

... and Master's motivation at that time is to give the girl a good, hard, f**k**g... and well, that's definitely what is best for the girl!

Big smiles,
ameenah{Orion}

(in reply to Leonidas)

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/18/2008 6:58:29 AM

Hiskajirah

Posts: 929
Joined: 1/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ameenah

Hi soshi,
I've been Master's slave for about 1 and 1/2 years now. The first year was a lot like a roller coaster ride, many times I wondered what the hell was going on, what was coming next, was I going to make it through this ride... and, to be honest... sometimes I wondered why did I ever get on this ride in the first place?    And to be honest, I think part of the reason it was so hard for me was because I really didn't 'get it' in terms of Master's thinking and motivations.

And I certainly don't 'get it' all now, not by a long shot. But I do understand something...   Master wants what is best for me.   I think somewhere down deep, I knew that all along... I had to because I hung on for the ride.

Just the other day I wasn't feeling well, and I mentioned something to him that he had told me before not to mention again..... in other words, I was 'nagging' a bit... but with the best of intentions, of course.   Well, Master laid into me... I got yelled at severely in the car... and I really wasn't feeling well... and I wondered... why is he making such a big deal out of this and being so severe when he knows I'm not feeling well.   One thing leads to another, I get sad, then I fold into myself as I often do... and then he tells me to wipe my eyes and let's continue on our day now. We were on our way to Home Depot to get some flowers and were going to stop for lunch. Well, I have an 'issue' with depression, and I was on my way 'down the downward spiral'.     Master told me to take a small step to do something to move past it... choose... better or worse... which way was I going to go?     And now I am pissed, because he is the one who 'made me' feel this way... I was having a perfectly fine day... I just asked about this one small thing... yes it was 'nagging', I guess, but with the best of intentions... and now he's laid into me severely about nagging and how he isn't going to put up with that at all... etc etc... and now I feel like crap...     and now he, who made me feel like this, wants me to all of the sudden take a small step toward the postive... and I couldn't/wouldn't. I froze.

Master pulled over into a parking lot and made me look him in the eyes.   I disobeyed, I was chastised for it... and now it was time to make myself move past it....     and he gave me a number of options of things I could do... ask, "Master, could you put on the radio?"     or look at the flowers blooming, etc.      His intention and thought all along was not only to help me learn to be more pleasing by not nagging... but also to help me learn to lift myself up and take small steps in the positive direction and stop myself from spiraling down... which I am especially prone to on days that I'm not feeling all that well.

So as to the motivations and thoughts of the Free... well, frankly, I only concern myself with Master's thoughts and motivations.   And I know that His thoughts and motivations revolve around molding me to become increasingly pleasing to Him... and to be that.. .he wants me to be 'strong as steel and soft as silk'.   He is harsh at times, but not without a healthy motivation for me to become stronger mentally, emotionally, and physically.   He pushes me, but never too far... and when I'm 'stuck', he helps me take the next step.

For a slave, in my opinion... this is the only motivation that she needs to know... that her Master's thoughts and motivations have her best interests at heart... even if she doesn't 'get it' at the time.   Once she knows this, obedience becomes much easier... because no matter how things seem at the time, you are confident that Master knows and is doing what is best for you.

Sincerely,
ameenah{Orion}

Greetings ameenah

In reading the story of your day, I know your Master did right by you. I can see that it was his intention to lead you past your depression and push you to focus on something better. Something upward. I too suffer from depression and I know how difficult life can be. My depression comes secondary to severe chronic pain, peripheral neuropathy, and irreversible nerve damage. I understand too that when we're not feeling well even the littlest of things can set off depression. Infact it's medically proven that pain (even not feeling well) causes depression and then depression causes more pain. It seems that your Master is teaching you, training you, molding you all in your best interest and his.

If you ever need anyone to talk to, someone to vent to and your Master allows you communication with me..

I will not be far away. ~smiles

I may be a slow responding, but I promise I always will as soon as able.

Sincerely,
~twinkle/ella

_____________________________

"Do not try to force me to be what you want me to be! Accept me for what I want to be,&am!—one who knows she belongs at the feet of men!&desires to be at the feet of men!-their slave!!—their loving slave!” Witness
www.CRPSAdvisory.com

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/18/2008 10:14:51 AM

nephandi

Posts: 3930
Joined: 9/23/2005
From: Cold and magickal Norway in a town near Bergen!
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Greetings xoxi

Can you understand me? Can you understand what i think or feel? i at least can not understand you and we are both slaves. i think it is very few that that understand the feelings and situations of another completely. And even less the thought and motivations of another person. And i think that have less to do whit social position and all to do whit that before we are free, slaves and whatever else we are, we are individuals.

i wish you well

_____________________________

Whatever you think you can do or believe you can do, begin it. Action has magic, grace and power in it.--Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Futon torpedoes, make love not war!--Aswad

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RE: How Free view slaves, how slaves view Free, etc. - 3/18/2008 8:28:44 PM

SixFootMaster

Posts: 829
Joined: 9/27/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: nephandi

Greetings xoxi

Can you understand me? Can you understand what i think or feel? i at least can not understand you and we are both slaves. i think it is very few that that understand the feelings and situations of another completely. And even less the thought and motivations of another person. And i think that have less to do whit social position and all to do whit that before we are free, slaves and whatever else we are, we are individuals.

i wish you well

Second best reply - second only to Leonidas'.

Three aspects are at play - what we say, what we know, and whether we care about the difference.

Six.

_____________________________

How-so oft fresh injurious deed
Doth turn Janus' petulant gaze
'pon the rocks and storm rift sea
And littered wood of broken days
disregard for toil shown
no ground broken, no seed sewn.

(in reply to nephandi)

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